Wiz c3 give you both quick cast and magic missile. Similar to other base c3 classes, they are largely useless except for some niche builds. QC attribute changed that completely, for wizard, wiz c3 become something so awesome that you want to go because you don’t want to miss the 50% damage.
At this point I feel that wizard think they are entitled to have +50% damage for basically no sacrifice.
TOS skill balance is really bad in my opinion … this game has a ton of jobs but only a few job(META class) can be shine and strong enough for serious play…
Don’t know about “Quick Cast” but “Magic Arrow” is way too strong 0w0 with high brust DMG and 0 Cd. Normally strong skill like that should be has long time cooldown. BTW, SW class skill that not strong much should lower cooldown and SP cost that SW can spam more skill for DPS SW class
At this point I feel that wizard think they are entitled to have +50% damage for basically no sacrifice.
wiz3 sacrifice 2 rank + some silver for the attribute + 1 precious buff slot + sp every few second to renew the buff. so it’s not for nothing.
compared to… 50% crit damage that archer and sword enjoy without sacrificing ranks and their buff slot. they just need to spend more silver and that’s all.
If I have to choose to take 2 rank for damage boost or spend silver… then anytime anyplace I will pick the latter. same logic in why people not taking paladin, because they can buy that class important skill with silver without spending their precious rank choice there.
sure they don’t come with accuracy and can be blocked, but accuracy can be bought with silver too and block penetration is already handled by ktos by adding that stat on str.
in my opinion, it is archer and swordman who has taken it for granted that their 50% damage increase. even swordman has 3 type of attack than can further buff their damage. what sword is lacking is multi-hit skill… that’s all. I can see all the complain here is about frost cloud and magic arrow… which both are able to produce true multi hit in short amount of time. I don’t see people complaining about QC + flame ground or flesh cannon even both are actually on par with frost cloud damage-wise with the right setup, so QC is definitely not the main problem here.
Maybe a feature like in a Diablo 2 would solve part of those issues - I mean that investing points in some low level skills will passively buff the stronger skills of the next rank classes. This would prevent this feeling of older skills becoming useless at higher lvl and introduce some more variety to the builds (like skills, that seems useless or very situational might be used as a passive buffs and because of that considered worth investing).
This is just a rough idea, but I really liked this feature in D2.
2 early ranks, 26k silver, ONE buff slot, 53 SP every 13-15 seconds (even without sitting it’s very easy to have enough SP regen to keep that buff up permanently), man that’s such a MASSIVE investment.
Compare to either: So much dex/crit investment that there’s very little STR left to get 100% crit rate (for ‘equal’ amount of 100% up time 50% more damage)
Or spend MILLIONS in total to get all their skills to 50% enhance attribute.
In case you aren’t aware, Swordsman/Archer don’t magically crit everything 100% of the time.
Also, armor types? You mean something like how ET boss have GHOST armor type, meaning it takes 75% from most Swordsman skills and 50% MORE from all magic attack? YEAH THOSE SWORDSMAN SURE HAVE IT EASY /sarcasm.
Funny that you searched all of my posts just for that, but you’re missing some points (especially since that discussion was about class resets, and i never talked about rerolling my char in this discussion).
See, i don’t agree that the quick cast attribute is OP to start with, rather, i see the alternatives as not good enough. When the choice is either getting actual attack spells or spending two additional rank for some comfort options, why should one ever choose the latter? It would make no sense. Either there is some other strong incentive in doing so - like the current attribute - or is a waste of ranks. A lot of people would go for a blanket nerf here, and i can’t see it making sense. That bonus is there to compensate for the drawbacks of the choice (a greatly reduced amount of offensive spells, compared to the alternatives). If you remove the bonuses, then you should remove the drawbacks as well, and give some additional, good offensive spells to the later ranks (like, something good versus flying enemies, maybe a lightning spell since there is a serious lack of those). How many people bothered with even proposing such a thing? None, all for a blanket nerf.
It doesn’t help that we’ve got people that are openly opposed to wizard classes in this discussion, and i can’t help but think that making the class worse is all they’re interested upon.
I see the pyro and cryo classes more as some sidegrades, rather than classes that you should get later (and in that regard, i said multiple times i wouldn’t give them stackable magic damage bonuses, cause i don’t think that some wiz3/pyro3 or the cryo equivalent should really be incentivized, given that we’re talking about stacking low-tiered ranks that were never designed to be used together - remember how we were supposed to choose classes, and how by doing so we were locked out by classes of the same rank? well, those classes didn’t change from that time, after all).
Even then, if they end up nerfing the skill, i’ll still keep using my character. I used a melee, non-heat based taekwon master back in RO, it can’t be worse than that. I’ll just still think that there was no reason to do so.
Edit: by the way, a bunch of players thinking that something is OP (like in this thread) isn’t the same as devs agreeing with it. I shouldn’t have to point that out, though.
Lol, not much sacrifice? Let me see, how about pouring all your stats into DEX for that not much sacrifice, and even then you can only crit 60% of the time?
You are the idiot here. You cant provide anything but this crap. You must be limited to this offensive behavior, no wonder this game comunity sux. Anyways he is right about swordsmen lacking multihit skills.
shut up, your logic fail so bad at previous posts
so get out of my way please, thank you
i’m too tired with your non-logic post 
QC defense people logic
"we are the best, the most OP, the strongest, so we jump at everyone against QC, and about other class ? we don’t give a damn"
You are so dumb, cant even read. Your offensive bullshit blinded you. Read again, and you can see i’m trying to get buffs for others classes.
But they don’t care about other classes either. They just want wizards nerfed, thinking that somehow doing so will solve all the problems instead of creating others. Not that they would care about making wizard ranks useless, either.
It goes beyond what people complain about.
Lets talk about “sacrifice”.
By going Wiz C3.
What you are opting out for (at Rank 3)
is
Cryo C1, Cryo C2, Linker C1, Pyromancer C1, Pyromancer C2, Psycokino C1.
This “sacrifice” is only a sacrifice if your choices are valuable to the role you’re trying to perform.
When you’re talking damage 50% more to attacks creates a notable gap.
This creates a distortion within the Wizard class of dealing damage without Wizard C3. Given the other Attack types within those 3 ranks are Pyromancer and Psychokino.
Quick Casts 50% becomes more pressing as we move towards rank 8, gaining additional skills with higher damage values for it to take advantage of.
Meaning a Rank 8 Wizard with Wiz C3, for that level 40 choice can hit 50% harder than other players who are the same rank 8 class. Linker has a similar qualm but its in a different fashion (and it was nerfed).
It is particularly mind boggling that they went this route as other classes simply do not have this sort of lasting permanence in C3 of a rank 3.
Swordman C3 gets a Double hit with a 35% crit chance.
35% Crit chance is 17.5% average damage making Double Slash do 2.35x of your physical power + Skill damage on average per cast.
This is not a 50% damage increase within the Swordman’s rotation, and it certainly loses value overtime unless you choose Shinobi which specifically is intended to create value in Swordman C3. Restrain while 40% suffers from well a variety of factors.
Cleric C3 gets 31.25% more healing than its C2 (factoring Divine Might), and a protection spell (guardian spirit) that redirects damage to 1 ally 50% of the time. So this is effectively 50% damage mitigation for the Cleric. However that damage is still being taken in full by someone else, so its not reducing the damage of the party. Then it has the 25% damage mitigation attribute.
Since the charges only occur 50% of the time. This means on average it will reduce 12.25% total damage. This is VERY far from 50% increased damage.
Archer C3 also has nothing approaching a 50% increase. More-so its C2 ranges from 0%-25% (hypothetical) crit chance depending on how much Crit rate you got from it.
Quick Cast is the most powerful increase any rank 3 C3 gets (Such sacrifice!). Which doesn’t have to mean anything but it is relevant for the Wizard classes internal balance when not looking at it in a vacuum. It is a fairly polarizing skill.
it’s no use if you don’t nerf QC
you have to buff other class and nerf QC also
logic fail again
There isn’t much point comparing to what other classes do. Classes are already designed and balanced differently, after all, be it in terms of stats used, stats modifiers, skill designs (notably their individual powers and cooldowns) and what else. A straight comparison just has no meaning, they’re different to start with.
If we want to do a comparison, it makes sense only when done inside of the same class. And there, you were still looking at it in a vacuum. Yeah, right now it’s a 50% increase in magical damage. Here is the catch: it doesn’t come for free. You spend two ranks on it, and you get a single decent attack spell in doing so. There are alternatives, and they come with many other spells you could have used instead. It’s 50% magical damage versus whatever else you could get in those two ranks (and that includes other sources of damage, too). Sources of damage that aren’t going to disappear, and that you’ll have at higher ranks, too.
If there is deemed to be a problem, the solution should be searched as how to make the alternatives be used as well and worthwhile long term, while retaining reasons to go for wizard 3 too. Outright nerfing QC isn’t a solution, it would just remove any reason to go wizard 3 (and no, a quicker cast and not being interrupted by normal hits isn’t a good reason to spend two ranks if you’re going dps; especially since the skills with long cast times usually end up having relatively high cooldowns anyway). Having something on later pyro ranks that makes fire spells ignore a certain percentage of magic defense would help long-term, for example, as well as having some fire damage increase (i wouldn’t make that stackable with quick cast’s attribute, though).
Either way, the solution is nowhere as simple as “nerf QC”. Merely doing that would just remove later wizard ranks from being used.
Something that many people don’t see an issue with in this thread, but still.
I’m not looking at it in a vacuum I’ve already looked at it further, I’m just not as interested in making wall posts anymore if I can help it (though my posts are lengthy still).
The Pyro C2 - Ele C3, vs Wiz C3 - ELe C3? Done the comparison.
Its fine up until Warlock at which point again.
The fact that you gain 50% on all magical damage transcends into ranks well past Wiz C3 which is where the problem ultimately lies in the disparity that results where two people are playing the same class but one is hitting ~50% harder with the same skills. Note the “~” Yes you do have other skills to use in your rotation, if you forgo wiz C3. Mind you, this will be 1-2 Ranks of attack skills that are again put up against MM and the 50%. The context of this is limited specifically to damage, and ignores the general fluidity and utility of Wiz C3 as a whole via the potential of Sleep 15.
Reducing magical defense factors specifically for Pyromancer skills is incredibly short-sighted.
Pyro C3, Wiz C3? Psychokino C3, Wiz C3? Again going by the reality of Quick casts attribute being polarizing and simply that potent.
This discussion has nothing to do with nerfing Wiz C3 out of relevancy so you can avoid trying to make that argument. Only the reality that Quick casts attribute creates an unhealthy disparity between damage dealing classes within the Wizard class.
No ones going to advocate for making Wiz C3 irrelevant.
There is no catch the “Doesn’t come for free” is an insane argument, every class is a choice, who gives a damn? Wizard C3 isn’t remotely special in this manner.
Its a rank 3 ability, literally a small amount of game-play relative to the actual sacrifices of time you will have to make. More importantly its not about sacrifice but simple choice, that has to be contrasted with OTHER choices available. The reality is in the long-term Wiz C3 creates a damage disparity between other lines within the Wizard Tree that do not have it but share the same classes later on. This has to be weighed with what those classes also do and whether they are out of line (they aren’t within the context of R6).
Wizard C2 &C3 has always had the issue of being unimpressive for their own rank, but of critical importance to ranks 4-7 because quick casts attribute is able to create such a notable gap in practical damage output even amongst skills without cast times.
Being unimpressive for their rank isn’t an issue because they’re literally the first three ranks possible, and the smallest amount of investment (time wise) to reach. It does not take anyone a disproportional amount of time to reach R3 conventionally, this is a meagre “sacrifice” particularly given that Wiz C3, is neither lacking in CC or short term damage.
The only real means of otherwise removing the disparity is to put global % damage elsewhere on the skills or in additional buffs.
Eg.
Meteor is 400% of your MA + Skill damage.
450% of that isn’t 50% more total damage. Its +50% of your MA + Skill damage.
So in the case of 2000 effective damage.
2000x4 = 8000
2000x4.5 = 9000
9000-8000 = 1000.
1000/8000 = 12.5% more damage.
If Quick casts attribute itself wasn’t lowered to a smaller quantity, the end ideology would be to reduce it through relative significance by the addition of other modifiers.
This is difficult to do outside of a vacuum given you have to also compare the utility skills of other lines. Easier to do when you give a large buff like QC attribute at a later rank than a lower 1.
I would guess that’s the point of having a wizard 3 as part of a character, even by design - you end up having less attack skills overall, but they hit harder. Wizard as an offensive (red) class wouldn’t make much sense otherwise.
Are we still talking about PvE? Cause putting non-flying enemies to sleep doesn’t help much if i could just have killed them instead…that is, if only the class provided spells to do so.
That’s not what i wrote, though.
“Fire spells” doesn’t mean it is limited to pyro ones. It just checks for their element. Whatever fire spells will be implemented in the future will still work with that (and given the datamined names of the r8 classes, i would guess there will be some).
I was thinking it as something akin to “fire spells ignore X% magical defense and deal Y% damage”, anyway.
Did you actually read this discussion? Most of the people here would just gut that attribute and leave the class as that.
Considering it in a vacuum like you’re doing is moronic as well, though. Long term you will still have those abilities those other choices have gained you. Having other classes won’t prevent you using them. Cryomancers’ CC skills don’t stop working after a couple ranks. Pyromancers’ skills shouldn’t get useless either (and if that happens, that’s another issue entirely, and has nothing to do with quick cast).
Of course there is a damage disparity in the spells of later ranks if they end up sharing classes. There would be no way that wizards could make up for the offensive spells they missed otherwise (but i do think that even then, a pyro should still have advantages in fire spells, being specialized in that regard). I don’t see as an issue, rather, i think they did it on purpose and that those wizard ranks as they’re now wouldn’t work otherwise.
Guess it is where our visions on the matter disagree. Not much to do about it.
One of my first chars was a Wiz3-ele because I liked how Magic Missile looks/worked and Elementalist seemed to be the best to go after. But I wasn’t really feeling Elem so I made like 3 more Wiz3s (Thauma, Linker-chrono, Linker-necrolock). But I’m most likely a rare case.
js
Except you don’t have less attack skills. Seriously, what’s with this argument? You use 2 ranks to boost your other 6 ranks (and future 8 ranks) by 50%, that’s all to it. If you think your other 6 ranks (including the massive warlock) care about losing the few meager attack skills of a pyro C2 then I’ve got nothing to say. Really, that’s just plain fallacy.
Before you repeat the same thing over and over again, please do me a favor, list what skill you think you are losing out by going wiz c3, that you ABSOLUTELY CANNOT pick up after going wiz c3, and they also MATTER at rank 6-7 and up.
It’s seven ranks right now, of which we still use 3. Yeah, the first is forced upon, but it also fails to provide any decent - even for the low standards of a rank 1 skill - attack spell. So increasing them at 15 doesn’t help either, they’re still terrible. And we don’t know anything about the next classes. If they gave pyros a bonus on fire spells, and those classes happened to have some of those, they could already reap a noticeable benefit in doing so.
That said, going to pyro provides at least Fireball (when people don’t move it, at least), Flame Ground and Enchant Fire, all in the first circle. At this point, on wizard 2, you wouldn’t even have a single worthwhile offensive spell.
After all, Pyro is a full fledged offensive class, and it shows in their repertoire of skills. It doesn’t mean that it hasn’t got issues right now. As i said above:
Imho, the issue is that pyromancer right now isn’t good enough as a specialized alternative.
And that’s why, apart from balancing the skills like they’re already doing, i would give them a damage increase and/or a certain percentage of magical defense ignore on fire spells, akin to how wizards have magical damage increase, but more specialized (and non-stackable with it). So that their skills can still be a valuable asset in the later ranks too, provided that we do end up getting some class that makes use of other fire spells (but about that, only the devs know).