Tree of Savior Forum

Time to nerf quickcast and Magic arrow

General Discussion
#442

not everything is a class balance problem. Infact it would be much easier and quicker to simply nerf ET mobs, these mobs are just huge hp spoonges. Cut their hp by 50% and damage by 25% and you will see much more classes in ET.

Once done you can just nerf quickcast.

I dont want to “nerf” wizards, i want to nerf quickcast because it is a retarded ablity and will proof a nightmare to balance around in the future.

Melees and monks are just not viable because they lack multi hit abilities like frost cloud, retreat shot or magic arrow, etc pp… Energy blast CD is simply too long, reduce that ■■■■ cd and implement / fix some decent c3 aoe and monks are fine.

In theory they could easily fix most swordman problems by changing their abilites into multi hits and thy are atleast viable.

barb cleave? Make it 5 hit like barrage. or give in an aoe dot. IMC created a balance situation where single hit abilities are sadly bad, especially when linked with a fairly long cooldown.

The are only 3 ways to reverse that situation:

  • let those single hits scale to absurd levels (making them hit for like 70k, which will kill pvp)
  • give every DPS multi hit skills… and try to balance the circles around that
  • adjust your monsters
1 Like
#443

Lol, i treat’em like useless ok. Hahaha, man not everyone enjoy being the underdog. And dont come with op stuff to me, i’m necro, nowhere near op.

#444

Finally! Someone got the point. Its not only nerfing wizard qc, you should make other classes viable. And ONLY nerfing qc will not change anything for swordsmen and stuff.

#445

Yeah because shooting 100k damage in 1 skill isn’t enough to you, you have to retain QC for 150k.

Nah with these kind of players we can just do it much simpler, give restrain 100% up time, then add an attribute for swordman to deal +50% damage to restrained target. Hey that’s actually a good idea.

#446

sure that you have to buff other class too and nerf QC
then why you pop-up to this topic and defense the “QC nerf” stuff ?
no idea are you just stupid or up to trolling

edit*
i see many of your comments cry that your necro will be weak without QC
and you told people it deal 100k dmg without QC
wtf
i think you are just an idiot my friend

1 Like
#447

Or you just joined this thread now or didnt read what I wrote. I’m saying, >BEFORE< nerf qc make sure you make others classes useful. xgclaw gave an option, that is scaling down endgame pve content.
But no, check the whole thread, its about comparing swordsmen to everything else.

#448

what the fk my friend
so when balance things you not compare OP class to other class
so what do you think you should compare ?

my ass ? :smile_cat::joy_cat:

@to other guys:
just ignore this idiot, look at his fail logic
he 's beyond help

#449

So judging this thread everything is op, nerf to swordsmen situation. Read it. Its not only about Quick cast.

#450

You read 1 damn swordsman saying flesh Cannon hits for 100k, come on. I’m not even arguing with this idiot anymore.

#451

You didn’t know either. You assumed it was a cryo-only thing, in a previous post.

So much for face rolling and OP, huh.

#452

Pyro has a few issues mainly it being a Rank2 damage class with very little besides damage. Lets take a look at what wizards bring to the table aside from damge.

Pyro - enchant fire
Cryo - ice tree, snow rolling, and general freezing all CC
Pyro - magnetic force, gravity pole, swap cc
Linker - joint penalty, spiritual chain, and Umbilical Cord
Thaum - Full of support not gonna name every spell. Buffs get much better with attributes.
Elementalist - Has a chance to freeze enemies along with the ability to buff lighting attacks for the entire party
Sorc - Can tank/keep mobs busy with their summon and also provide sp recovery
Chrono - Pass, Haste actually just look at every spell. They all provide something useful.
Necro - Can inflict Decay on enemies which causes them to take extra damage from missle property attacks. Helping your archer friends out.
Alchemist - This is a prof class so I won’t bother with including it.
Rune Caster - Brings rune of ice to the table along with Rune of Giants
Warlock - Mastema will cause mobs to take extra damage from holy attacks which will help out your cleric friends
Featherfoot - Brings healing and not only that the decay state for archers.

So if you look at what the wizard classes bring to the table outside of damage you’ll notice that Warlock, Pryo and Necro bring the least support overall. But people still pick Warlock and Necro cause their damage hasn’t fallen off cause its from a Rank2 class.

Every Rank2 classes damage spells fall off eventually just like your rank 1 damage spells. The skills that stay solid are the buffs they get and the ones that interact with other ranks. If you’re expecting your damage skill you obtain at level 30 to be comparable to someone else’s damage skill they gain at 150 or 230 that’s just plain ignorant.

If pryo was comparable to other dps wizards in damage then everyone would go pyro cause why bother with difficult leveling? I could just stay pryo and laugh at all the people leveling utility skills in preparation for later ranks.

I do agree pyro needs a buff and this game overall needs balancing. But you’re not going to achieve balance by comparing skills on a X skill to Y skill. This game is designed for group play. You don’t do later content by yourself. So why would you consider balancing damage on individual case by case comparing X skill to Y skill. When skills and classes interact with each other.

A Chronomancer gives pass to the group and nearly doubles the damage output of a party None of you seem to complain? Maybe cause you like the fact that they’re making your damage great. So is it ok for a class to make YOUR dps stronger but if another dps class only buffs themselves its a problem cause it makes your class/build feel worthless?

A Linker casts spiritual chain then umblical cord and causes the highest STR, INT, DEX, SPR and CON to be shared across the entire party. This is the reason why fletchers have the reputation of this godlike worldboss class. The fletcher’s damage is part of the reason but without Mr. Linker there to make sure Mr. Fletcher is both full DEX and full STR simultaneously its not a guarantee that the fletcher and group will get the cube. So people scream nerf to fletcher but not nerf to linker. Cause they like the linker. The linker helps them. But the fletcher is just another dps for them to compare to their own.

Bring on the misquoting and cherry picking arguments.

4 Likes
#453

pyro - enchant fire, no one picks it, the damage it provides is useless
cyro- strongest CC class
linker- no one picks c3 unless for world bosses, gets overshadowed by chrono every day, provides, sadly, not enough for endgame support. Needs more links and lower CD to be earth tower viable.
thaum- hahaha, useless support, sadly
ele- ok
sorc- afk farm, decent for pvp
necro- damage comparable to ele 2, ET viable
alchemist- yeah money
rune caster - too bad frost rune doesnt work with frost cloud, only rune of giants is any good
warlock- good
featherfood- only good with a linker, sadly they suck

Ppl pick DPS; because they want to deal DPS, no one really cares for supportish skills in DPS trees, because they are DPS. Funny enough the best support skill is AGAIN in the basic wizard tree:D > lethargy.

Pyro spells deal competitve DPS because they are MULTI hit over a large amount of time and do not need AOE ratio. If pyro skills would be capped by aoe ratio or deal single like swordman skills, yeah the circle would suck. The sole reason why ele is great, is simply because of frost cloud, why? Yeah, because it is a insane multi hit aoe ability with a low cooldown and pyro has many of those skills, just with a longer cooldown and a slower tick rate.

Pyro however is pure dps, but it suffers from other problems, like all dps classes should somehow. Your fireball gets random kicked, you are terrible vs air, you are melee range, your c2/c3 skills have awful long cooldowns and you deal damage slowly.

You have to balance DPS with and without support in mind. If you look at swordman for example, no amount of chrono support will make them viable, therefor the basic swordman DPS have to be buffed.

Wizard/archer dps is totally fine without any support and only gets stronger with chrono support. Some classes simply have better synergy between each other than others.

SR is prolly the best example for a synergy overkill class, as it provides synergy with different classes and circles and goes totally over the top with the right support.

However buffs like quickcast are overall simply far too strong to be left untouched in the future, as again, you will have to balance ALL DPS CIRCLES AROUND QUICKCAST. Ppl should get that in their head, its a nightmare to adjust numbers simply because you provide all future wizard dps with insane 100% uptime buff to already superb strong dps class. The scaling will be nightmare to balance.

You even make the point yourself, if pyro would be competitive DPS late game, everyone would pick pyro. Yeah, but it isn’t, so why should anyone pick pyro at all, if he could simply pick wizard 3 and future proof all upcoming dps builds?.. there is no reason to pick anything else than wizard 3 if you are not going for support route. And even pyro 3 needs wizard 3:D

Before you take support into consideration you should compare the circles/dps choices without it. Which swordman build can compete with wiz3/ele3/wl in raw dps? Yeah, no one. Why ? Pretty much quickcast.

The same can also be applied to w3/kino / pyro etc pp.

#454

Which swordsman dps can compete with ele3/wl WITHOUT Quick cast? Et 1f, 30 mobs wave, no Quick cast at all, Frost cloud / pole of agony vs any swordsman. Which swordsman can compete?

Let me just laugh a little “necro dmg comparable to elementalist, et viable” hahaha hahaha

Korean et tier list -> Necromancer on the trash tier.

#455

yeah the list from februar, i suggest you follow patch notes:D

#456

Answer my question, please. Btw, no significant changes besides skeletons hp… that is still trash (come on man, i’m necromancer. I follow a kr necro that keeps uploding videos)

#457

Your analysis of each dps is pretty humorous. You claim Thaumaturge is wothless yet it provides some of the best buffs in the game provided you level the attirubtes. You don’t include Kino in your analysis. And you analyze only damage in some of them and support in the others. Very thorough props to you.

You’re generalizing your view on Support and DPS as everyones. Some people like throwing support skills in their DPS kit in order to help out the party. I don’t know about you but I try to make my characters well rounded and consider more than just how damage I can potentially deal. Also the reason why lethargy is the best support skil is cause its bugged. Its only supposed to provide bonus to strike damage but many skills are getting the damage regardless.

I agree. I’ve played both of the classes. Pyro and Ele functionally do the same thing with deployment based aoe that damage over time. Ele just have the advantage cause its damage is faster tick rate. Not arguing there.

I agree with these statement totally. Each class should have strengths and weaknesses. The game should be considered as a whole across all classes and skills when balancing is considered.

SR is one of the best damage class provided you base the entire team and their builds around it. Also using that lethargy bug on SR. I’m pretty sure they don’t intend for guns to deal striking damage -.-

Ok so a buff like quickcast is too strong but Pass isn’t? Why is that? Whats to stop you from going pyro3 chrono3 to futurproof your build? You get some damage from pyro and that damage output is going to double once you get chrono3. Also Pass makes your build futureproof for later dps ranks just like quickcast. :smiley:

I love this loaded question. You choose to pick the most underpowered of the 3 basic classes to compare to the cookie cutter meta wizard build. I notice how you don’t pick Cleric or Archer in this case cause they actually have builds that are competitive damage wise. So should we use swordsman as basis for balance now and take everything down to that level? Or are you just using swordsman as an example because it suites the needs of your own argument?

1 Like
#458

Well, i didnt list kino, because you didnt list him. The problem with well rounded characters is, well, that they are well rounded and do not excel in anything. Well, many skills also do strike damage, i do not see any confirmation that no strike skills getting the bonus damage so far.

All but wildshot skills are listed as STRIKE damage, i am not sure how lethargy is bugged, its rather that certain skills are listed wrongly, if there is a bug at all. https://tos.neet.tv/skills?cls=Char3_10&f=1
This existed since SR release tho and i doubt it would be hard to fix, if IMC wanted to.

pyro3/chrono3 would prolly make you semi future proof in pugs, but not in earth tower. By that logic you could take pyro3/chrono3 and cyro3/ele3 and be fine, but you aren’t. Pyro 3 is terrible without atleast wizard 2, as hellbreath gets interrupted by a single random hit and it would lack DPS in total, without 50% matk. All highend pyro builds are either wizard3 or linker, but linker aoe has been fixed. Not to mention chrono pass will be little for pyro high cooldown spells, it will certainly not double your DPS. Its hard to say in general how PASS does influence class dps, it really depends on the class.

Only good interaction between pyro and chrono would be STOP, as fireballs keep ticking in the STOP zone, for whatever reason.

Thauma is bad, because not only take his buffs, very important buff slots, they also do not scale. The only thing that is scaling is swell brain (atleast in KR), and the more ranks we gain, the less important will his buffs become, even the new priest blessing already provides more damage than thauma will. You even see priest r3 in earth tower now, as blessing scales very good, a full spirit blessing will hit for 500+ every time.

You will not take double hybrid support wizard into ET, when wizard3/xx and a full support will simply outshine both hybrid supports, in both damage and dps.

Two hybrid dps will not deal the same dps as a pure dps wizard and they will not offer the same level in support either, because they have to split their actions into dps and or support, while a focused player does only one of these things.

A specialised class will be also be preferable in a specialised meta environment like earth tower. It even gets clearer, when you look at the upcoming card system, i am pretty sure theys will be support cards soonish and a hybrid has when once again to split his slots between dps and support. You will not want a full dps and a hybrid/dps either, unless you can carry him.

Also please do not compare a SELF buff like quickcast to a party buff.

The only archer build which does comparable dps to ele-eme is the SR, for already stated reasons. All these wugushi builds with falconeer and cannoneer do not provide the same DPS and arent even future proof, thanks to poison scaling terrible and falcon/cannoeer beeing held back by game mechanics.

Swordsman on KR arent even that bad, 0 cd skyliner can be competitive DPS when you can keep the swordman alive. No clue about cleric DPS, no clue about cleric dps, but its all about druid and PD.

there is a movie from a pyro with and without wizard 3. I am sure you can see the difference in effectiveness.

#459

Yeah of course, I never had or played ele before, so I cannot say anything for ele. But you played it, has freeze skill, and never knew it.

#460

To be fair, i played a cryo 3 and even i didnt realize that bonus dmg until you bring it up lol…
I dont really care much about min maxing though… so such details went over my head sometimes.

On the topic of quickcast, I guess nerfing the duration or cooldown might be enough? Swordsmans have their piercing/slash debuffs to up their damage and those didnt have 100% uptime.
Another possibility would be nerfing the percentage damage increase and giving each of the specialized elemental circles their own bonus dmg buff (pyro gets fire, cryo gets ice, kino got gravity?) And gives you choice of being a jack of all trade while having a cast shortening effect or excel in one of the elemental magic. Maybe that will promote more build variations? (I hate how those respective class doesnt have an ‘upgrade’ of some sort like highlanders-barbs to doppel as a 2handed sword user or like hoplite to dragoon as spear user)

The suggestion to make quickcast a c1 buff like the archer buff is also nice. Make it scale slower and needing more points to invest in to achieve maximum capability

#461

It’s actually the attribute that has problem, not QC itself.

Some wizard classes really depend on QC effect (the -50% cast time, not the damage attribute), like necro, rune caster or ele. So QC should have 100% up time for those classes to function.

But since the attribute is too strong people tend to forget the main purpose of QC