Tree of Savior Forum

Thoughts on iToS:R8

Disclaimer:

This will be a rather long post, so do bear with me. Firstly this isn’t an iQuit, iRant or iShowoff kind of post. What this post seeks is to offer my observations on the current Tree of Savior Rank8 (iToS:R8) patch, some things which I found out over the course of gaming in MMOs and other game genres, how the concepts come about and what kind of solutions can be proposed to tackle the challenges found in iToS:R8. As I’m no expert in this field (just a regular gamer with a 9-5, unrelated job), do feel free to expand and improve on the ideas or correct and propose alternative solutions . Hopefully what is collectively done here can be seen by the developers of the game and they can bring some insights out from this to improve the game.

Some background info:

I’m a semi-hardcore, non-competitive player for ToS. Currently at time of writing I’ve spent 2.1k hours playing iToS, have 9 characters ranging from levels 120s to 310s with most of them mid rank 7 and 2 which are rank 8. I do love spending time in analysing things, how they work and the concepts behind, hence most of my posts in forums are suggestions and ideas.


Difficulty spike, game pacing and enjoyment

Before we touch on the iToS:R8 balance we will need to talk about balancing in general for games, especially games in the action-RPG and MMO genre, since ToS is basically these 2 genres mashed together. In ARPGs, a player overpowers his/her adversaries by hitting them for a number of successful attacks. How games balance skills across each other can be simplified as the number of hits need to dispatch the target, the speed in which those hits are dealt, the method in delivering the hits to the target and the resources needed to perform the hit. It is these 4 that make up the fundamentals of each and every skill and how they interact with the target.

Supposedly we have skill A, in which we consider as a default, balanced skill. Against a monster Z the player would have to use A 20 times to dispatch it. So once we have this as a median, we can create other skills such as skill B, which is of higher power and can kill off the same monster in 10 hits, or skill C which is weaker and takes 30 applications of it to get rid of monster Z. Then, in order to balance these skills to each other, other values such as speed of delivery and resource consumption will be tweaked. Like skill B requires a large consumption of resources and skill C dealing hits more swiftly.

So projected in game terms, it might be monster Z has 100k hp and skill A does 5k damage each, so 20hits of 5k will dispatch off monster Z.

So far this is the basic blocks on how skills are formed and balanced, without touching on the reverse, which is mitigation of hits. In order to keep games fresh and interesting, we can’t keep having the same kind of monster Z all over the place, players will get sick of them. So, like skills themselves, monsters each have variations to simulate different challenges to the player. Some monsters will have more mitigation, some equipped with skills themselves to attempt to thwart the player from dealing the hit successfully. In short, different monster variants will present different type of challenges and ‘difficulty’ to the player.

This is where it becomes interesting, we all know that mitigation in MMOARPGs comes in 3 forms:

  • Mitigation in increasing the constitution of the monster (HP increase)
  • Mitigation in increasing the toughness of the monster (defence increase)
  • Mitigation in controlling the chance of success in which the player’s hit will connect (crowd control skills, dodge/block skills etc)

In the monster Z situation increasing only the constitution for monster by 2x will make the player require 40 hits to kill it. Increasing the toughness of monster by 2x will also make the player require 2 times more effort to kill it, since damage dealt is halved. This is what most of the MMOs out there do, in order to raise the “difficulty”, they increase the hp and defense of the monsters, but most of the time the increment is gradual and is only on one of the forms.

So what happens when we increase both of the 1st 2 forms of mitigation without any increment of the player’s ability to deal more damage? If monster Z now has:

200k hp + 2x def… skill A deals 2500 instead of 5000, will take 80 applications of skill A to kill the monster.

What if the monster has 400k hp and 10x the def?

400k hp + 10x def… skill A deals 500 instead of 5000. 800 applications just to kill 1 monster Z.

Will the player even stay there to apply 800 applications of a skill just to kill a monster? Common sense tells us no, the difficulty spike is too high. The player will need to have some sort of measure to increase their damage output to match the monster’s increase in toughness.


There is something which I called “pace of the game” (It might have an official term somewhere but I don’t know what is it. Let’s just call it this). As we can see, game when broken down to the core, is essentially a time sink in which players invest their time (and sometimes money) to trade for enjoyment. A player may have traded X amount of time to get Y return of enjoyment back. Games which are really engaging and addictive gives players the illusion of getting more enjoyment vs the amount of time they expect to trade in. Vice versa, players will feel bored when they invest X+ amount of time but only get back Y- amount of enjoyment.

So why is this “game pace” related to balancing and monster toughness? Players get enjoyment in games by accomplishing things, be it watching their avatar grow stronger, beating a hard to beat dungeon/quest or besting peers in duels etc. Being able to overcome a hard and difficult challenge makes the player feel good, and will continue to seek out such thrills in game. A good game will constantly throw out these increasingly difficult challenges and yet keep these still within the player’s reach, so that the player can get the joy of feeling accomplished after besting these maps and quests. When the challenge is too tough, the game throws out some form of aid to the player which can guide him or her back on track.

This aid can be in the form of common items which helps the player in accomplishing their challenges easier. A good instance of this is in World of Warcraft, where every new expansion comes out, players gear and stats become vastly outgeared by the new monsters. What the WoW developers do? They introduce many common gears in which the players can acquire during their journey into the new patch’s difficulty and challenges. These gears, although are still weak compared to the new end game gears, serve as a jumping board for players to use to get used to the new challenges and difficulty levels. This allows the devs to raise the bar of difficulty level, yet still maintain the pacing of the game to make the player feel that their time spent on the game product is worth it.

Balancing in ToS:R8

Back to iToS:R8, what is observed is the huge difficulty spike in monsters, both in overall toughness and constitution. We have monsters with huge hp pools up to 500k+ and with magical defenses up to thousands. Just like the monster Z example above, a regular player would have to increase his or her skill output by a lot more just to tackle these monsters, yet the returns (of enjoyment) back is still the same.

Fact is, all players like to see progression in their own avatars, which they painstakingly spent hours of their time (amd perhaps money) working on. They want to see their character, while on the quest of getting stronger, is able to dish out more damage and survive longer. Progression to them is seeing ever increasing amount of damage in numbers, which is a tool they use to guage how well they do. This is also why most games with damage numbers will keep on increasing till the millions. They give a sense of progression to the players.

So if increasing damage is progression, how about decreased damage? How will a player perceive his character when he sees that the damage dealt is a mere fraction of what he deals previously? Regression of character? Build and play is wrong? It gives off a negative vibe to the player, making him doubt whether his choices in game is correct or not. This is perhaps the reason why most games gives priority to increasing hp pools of monsters over increasing the toughness of monsters. It generates the feeling of

“Hey this monster is so hard, have such a huge pool of hp. But I’m doing more damage than before, I might be able to just clear it.”

In R7 swordsman don’t deal as much damage as their magic counterparts, but they do increasingly more damage as they progress through the game. In R8, the magic classes get the reverse. Due to implementation of tougher monsters with more constitution, magic classes are dealing lesser damage then before while still have to face the daunting, ever growing hp pools. Personally this isn’t really ideal if the game is to be balanced for party play with a good mixture of physical and magic classes. It just kills the play experiences of magic classes outright.

So what can the game (or rather devs) do to achieve this good party mixture without ruining play experiences?

First and foremost is to balance the ratio between monster toughness and constitution, so that players, no matter physical or magical builds, will still dish the same or more damage to the monsters before the difficulty spike. Remember in the beginning of the post I mentioned about 3 forms of damage mitigation? The last form is to control the success of in which the player will successfully hit the monster.

Crowd control form of mitigation have to be used sparingly, since wrestling control of the player’s avatar ruins player experience. No one likes to sit there unable to do anything. So the best way to provide more challenge is to introduce dodge/block skills to monsters. Give monsters situational missile holes, golden bell shields and ausrine invulnerability that lasts up to 3 secs max. In this way it generates a more dynamic way for players to engage monsters, where players have to watch when and where to start dpsing in order to clear the monsters more efficiently.

Next, introduce more common tiered items to help players whom are struggling with their damage. Pre R8 it works out pretty well with players using weapons such as superior corona rods, superior wreech bow etc to help them progress in 240+ content. Now R8 is released and we do need common tiered items such as these.

30 Likes

Nicely written… and Thank You for posting your observations!!.. It really points out the real issues of the game and gives an unbiased point of view especially on what it needs to be done.

Was planning to hop back to the game but reading ur post gives me a clearer picture on whats going on in this game other then the usual complaint post of bugs and imbalance that needs to be fix and white knights defending the game!!

I might prob wait and see what IMC plans to do next =p


@Nekorin
Prob be best to do a summarized point form for those TL:DR trolls and for the devs of iToS to read…since they are already having a hard time understanding/translating English from the way they are posting stuff…

But that up for u to decide… Still Kudos for the effort :grinning:

3 Likes

aah nekorin, always so wise <3. I Agree with almost all you say.

tooo long, but i was able to read it, its a very detailed observation nonetheless and I agree with you on most points. Difficulty spike is very big indeed. Suddenly, my chars are crawling on the new maps

A very interesting read indeed.
Another great topic for them to completely ignore.

A Staff might come here and say it was sent to the Dev Team, but honestly I don’t think Staffs bridging the info between dev/community is the problem. I just think Devs are ignoring most of the problems.

Either that or they have so many ■■■■■■■ problems that it’ll take forever to fix them all.

2 Likes

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

2 Likes

The thing is, IMC intentionally made these huge monster HP pools so that players won’t be able to plow through content real fast imo.

I don’t really consider giving a monster more hp or more def an increase of difficulty.
Regardless whether a monster has 100k or 1 trillion hp, the only difference is how long it takes to take it down. I don’t really think that should be considered an increase in difficulty.
Monsters with higher hp are not “difficult”, they’re “high hp damage sponges”.

An increase in difficulty would be if the monster would hit harder, hit faster, has better skills available, behaves more intelligently and less predictable than the easier monster versions.

Personally, i think TOS is every unbalanced in terms of monster hp, it’s ridiculous how a map has some common monsters that only have 5k hp and die by just looking at them while other common monsters on the same map have 300k+ hp and take too long to take down for many classes to be considered fun (even more so when they’re flying type). I think a better system would be if, to take the same map, all monsters would have an hp range of 100k~150k instead of 5k~300k, so there is a certain kind of steady rythm when grinding on that map and a reasonable battle duration instead of these 300k hp damage sponges with some 5k hp nuicances.

I like that the game is crazy hard

If you’ve never played ragnarok online then most of the people here don’t understand how similar these games are. IMC is basically copying ragnarok’s formula.

Ragnarok online did the same thing, more hp and more dmg. Then it turned into less hp but different attributes. Then it went to crazy dmg and map traps!

the problem with this game is that enforce the concept of team level, while leveling another character isn’t a problem… the attributes are, another example is transcendence… such a bad developed concept in wich your dmg sky rocket in only 1 weapon in 1 character at a huge silver cost(in wich case may not encourage new players to come cause they’ll never be able to catch up), the same as refine, at least we don’t broke our weapons as in RO, but sometimes make me think that this games was developed with the sole purpose of rmt and silver farming bots, and what botter me the most is the annoying DPK and hence come to my mind the rmt issuis, and ofcs the problems that everybody has… lag, frozen client, crash cliente, bad balancing, horrible ping, toxic community, untouchable cheaters, but what the hell… i keep on playing regarding all of that… dunno why.

1 Like

Similiar to RO? HUE!?
Modern games have two major differences the original RO lost over time (with F2P transition and renewal)

  • lvl based penalties
    The absence of those allowed you to stay at certain maps for long ranges. (Wiz @ magma, Monk @ sleeper, just to name some examples). It further allowed you to build equip for certain places. Would you really build similiar equip in TOS/modern MMOs that force you to a new place every few lvls? It further created a huge diversity between the classes. Such as cliffing archers at various maps, or fire mages at clocks. While melees cant survive there at lowlvls, they excel at other maps. In TOS, everyone gets funelled through the same path.
  • Teleport skill/Creamy cards/Flywings
    That was a major reason for me to abandon RO. The skill allowed you to skip moving over trashcan maps on the way to real grindspots and escape dire situations in a second. I got really angry when IMC implemented a check whether you are in combat to prevent you from logging out or channelhopping when near death. Though many modern games somewhat ease this with some sort of teleportation (statues in this game), it will never be the same the original RO teleport was.

To me, no game can be called similiar to the original RO, exept for both being MMOS.

1 Like

Probably when they added transcendence is the reason they made the mobs alot more difficult.

Pre 200 or so there is actually quite a bit of ways to level differently especially with the xp penalty change they just made. After that though your choices go down alot, only a couple grinding areas.

I have made suggestions on this and have seen others in the past on adding more grinding areas.

One was to add multiple dungeons with unique themes to each. Each dungeon has many floors with increasing lvls so you could grind there a long time. We already have things like this, but im talking more like you could grind there from 50-250 if you wanted. And with the xp penalty change you could do it with like 10 floors on each dungeon.

Heres an example on how the dungeon layout could be to make it interesting. Its from this older game i used to play http://www.da-wizard.com/files/maps/tab/milethcrypt/crypt.html

With the above dungeon layout it has enough floors to possibly grind to lvl 500 though lol

**EDIT:**Just to clarify, im not talking about adding instanced dungeon. Its dungeons like royal mausoleum constructor chapel that doesnt use runs and can do whenever.

Quite a few:

  • Grind.
  • Quest for cards then Grind.

Not helping. :C

BUT YAMA YOU CAN DO DUNGEONS AND MISSIONS YOU ■■■■■■■ NOOB!!!1

3 runs a day don’t count as something you can do to constantly level up. RIP.

Quest, grind, dungeon. You can do a little of each or alot of one at different times. What else do you expect to lvl?

Are you sure you want me to describe the leveling experience in any successful MMORPG? Cause I mean… You can say there are “quite a few” like it’s more than two with TOS and it sounds like a fat lie.

1 Like

Well, last mmos ive played was wow and eso. Only ways to lvl was mainly quests.

I have leveled alot of characters each in different ways, not exact same path. so i say quite a few. Maybe in the same general path.

Yes you end up doing the same dungeons and following the same main quest. For example first char i did pretty much nothing but quests and few dungeons. 2nd i did all kill counts and all quests, little dungeons. third i only did main quest and dungeons. fourth i think i grinded alot in specific areas, etc.

Sigh…

Let’s do this.

WoW:

  • Main Story Quests.
  • Side Quests.
  • Dungeon Crawling. (No limit)
  • Raids.
  • Daily Quests.
  • Daily dungeon bonuses.
  • Daily Raids.

WildStar (Not that successful but it was good)

  • Story Quests.
  • Side Quests.
  • Daily Quests.
  • PVP.
  • Dungeon Crawling.
  • Raids.
  • Job Quests (Explorer, Scientist and Warrior).
  • Adventures (Instanced mini dungeons with a side story).

FFXIV:

  • Crafting.
  • Gathering.
  • Dungeon Crawling.
  • Story Quest.
  • Side Quest.
  • Leve Quest.
  • Guildhests.
  • Fates.

I’m pretty sure those qualify as “quite a few”.

And none of the MMOs mentioned above even needed grind to achieve something, aside the obvious legendary gear.

o/

1 Like

So, quests, dungeons, grind, huh? interesting. This is a grinding game. expect grind.

I played four characters to 100+ so far and they all went the same path. That is Klaipeda to Royal Mausoleum5. Some did supplement that with a few quests from the Orsha side or the farm area before Demon Prison. From 150 onwards, you basically have to do every available quest and map 100% to have enough cards. Killcounts are only doable with builds that can kill well. If you enjoy doing those with Peltsquire or SPR chapless priest, it is your choice of course.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, two of them got to 230+, both PDs. The Krivis3 based one did many killcounts, while the SPR priest based one did none.

Now let me guide you through the major difference here cause I know it’s hard to see when you’re stuck trying to defend something you know it’s garbage.

In all those MMOs mentioned above, you can do one of those things alone and you’ll be able to reach cap no problem at all.

In TOS you are forced to do the same ■■■■. Do quests and save the cards, reach thresholds to use cards. To reach thresholds you need to grind the same mob over and over and do the occasional daily dungeon run. Don’t worry Gringe. You can’t defend ToS from it’s flaws. Just accept that the game needs work instead of headbutting anyone that points out the fact that the game’s leveling experience sucks balls.

1 Like