Factual? Do I need to spit out URLs to what is “Factual” for you? Are you admitting to being lazy? Look it up yourself. Do your own research, im not gonna type out whats gonna end up being over 20k words detailing and outlining all the facts for you. I may type at over 110 WPM but hell no am I gonna do all the work for you.
Speculation is speculation, but expecting something that is now BASIC to have in the MMO Genre/industry is completely different. It would be foolish not to have someway to recover from bad choices in a game like this with how long it can potentially take, seeing as right now the rates of exp are at 3x and even then it takes a long time to level after 75, to get back to whatever the current max cap will be on release. If they go back to 1X rates and have no way to get double/triple exp or class selections respec, it would not only be a extremely poor developer decision, but a complete potential waste for Micro-transaction revenue. Alot of the devs heading this game are not inexperienced doing their first mmo, some of them has done a few by now, been at it for over a decade and knows how the market works. It would be inconceivable for them to not provide the proper cash shop items this game will require to make money to profit from the game in the long run.
To anyone who has some fantasy that the devs are making this out of love for the game, to reminisce on the RO days, that cash shop items will be kept purely cosmetic and all revenue will come out of initial purchase to just play the game assuming they are still going B2P, really needs to throw away that Bong.
Is the word factual in quote’s because you perhaps have no idea what the term means?
Here’s basically what I see in your post from someone who has actually been to a debate. I don’t claim that internet arguments should be held to the same standards as a debate but you could at least try a little.
Provide source or this is opinion and not fact
Personal attack with no merit or proof (from here on referred to as an “ad hominem” or logical fallacy in which one uses a personal attack to detract from an argument). Also assuming you have more experience playing mmorpg’s and this somehow makes your opinion into fact.
Opinion
Opinion
Another personal attack instead of actual debate
Yet another personal attack instead of actual debate
This one’s the best because it’s the third ad hominem post in a row and suggests the people actually attempting to use logic rather than personal insults are the ones with flawed logic.
This is just an appeal to probability which is the majority of your arguments when your not using an ad hominem instead.
I know aliens are real, I mean how can we be alone in the universe. Another appeal to probability. Also suggests your from the future if you have 100% verified knowledge that said feature will be in the game.
The opposite is also likely and can be said about any opinion based design such as increased/decreased xp rates, instances/vs no instances etc. Congrats on actually giving a reason for your thinking after 4-5 pages of writing though.
Another non-factual statement made in the belief that it can’t be proven but could be correct. Also an assumption that any amount of something (in-balance) somehow proves the existence of an unknown (skill/class reset).
Going out of your way to post incorrect information when the confirmed level/rank limit is known information.
Back to the good old ad hominem when someone presents a logical argument.
A words definition is set by it’s use. This is common knowledge I shouldn’t have to explain. Google the definition of “gay”. It no longer is defined as a state of happiness because that’s not how it’s used. You’re free to use the word “hardcore” how you want but as long as it’s not the definition that is most wildly used then you’re the one who is using it incorrectly.
An actual argument to answer? Cool. I would assume they put it in for testing different builds such as full dex/full con or whatever build you want but wouldn’t include it in launch so that I can’t level my full int elementalist and switch to full con for pvp.
More logical fallacy, appealing to probability.
I love the assumption without fact, the appeal to probability and the affirmation “Just how it is” after providing nothing of substance on the argument.
Assumption that the choice would make them more money, assumption that they would make the choice either way, assumption that the choice is beneficial for the customer. Zero facts and more opinion.
Ad hominem and more biased opinion with no actual argument going on. At least this is honest opinion and not creation of more obviously fake information.
Straight up denial when dev interviews suggest an appeal towards grinders/hardcore crowd. Followed by
Wait, so you agree it’s a hardcore mmo then. How a word is defined is explained above incase your confused about contradicting yourself.
Ad hominem while sounding dumb and flaunting your incorrect definition of the word hardcore. Woops sorry now im resorting to insults. >.<
Im not sure if your trying to say that while playing a game we lose our free will and suddenly stop making decisions or if you honestly believe that what happens in the game will be the same regardless of my input.
This is actually the 5th time you brought up how this game is newer and thus shouldn’t be like older mmo’s. I would argue that they are creating a game closer to older mmo’s due to the recent collapse of the mmorpg bubble and failing of recent mmorpg’s as well as a general disdain for common mmorpg design choices such as faster xp and endgame based content.
Interesting you flaunt your mmorpg prowess, list a bunch of super casual recent games and fail to list the hundred or so that don’t sell any resets despite being much grinder than the above games or even the other games developed by Kim Hakkyu (Hint: Ragnarok Online didn’t have stat or skill reset the entire time Kim Hakkyu was onboard but unlike you I won’t use an appeal to probability fallacy to assume this means we won’t have them).
I laughed at this one. Please explain how you came to this conclusion other than a profound belief that the majority agree with you.
I love when you can point to a sentence and just say “wrong”. This is the opposite of how a word is actually defined in reality. I’m going to call hotdogs, meatsticks because I think they should be and people who call them hotdogs are wrong because there’s no dog in it.
They were mostly financially successful despite a smaller niche playerbase and most of them didn’t collapse in 2 months like all the recent themepark/endgame based clones of the last few years?
ToS’s combat formula is literally (skill damage + attack)-defense. RO had complicated multiplicative damage forumula that were different for each skill. Stat breakpoints that required careful planning along with your gear. If you mess up your stats in ToS you just traded a point of damage for a bit of health or crit rate and have no breakpoints you could possibly screw up
Basically the opposite of what you said.
You wrote 10 pages of logical fallacies on your personal opinion but your too lazy for citation to actually attempt to prove any of your arguments which you straw-man off to me by calling me lazy directly afterwords. Then you repeat the same argument based on an appeal to probability, again, without any proof.
Honestly though the devs would be silly to not include oranges since oranges sell more than apples and if you think im wrong well you’re an insult involving your age and I have 28 years experience eating apples. Also google doesn’t exist so you can’t just google all the dev interviews and realize im just making stuff up. - Every @alexandrious2001 post in this thread.
Also still off topic. Lucky these forums aren’t moderated lol
Well considering your probably from the WoW Generation thus you hate being wrong, and of course, your gonna be wrong in everything. I dont need to provide a source, as for opinion, not really an opinion, more like it being from highly educated experience with how mmos work that I know, if the developer/publisher wants to be able to retain players, and make good revenue, this is quite honestly a gold mine, players will pay for multiple class respecs to try things out, or better their builds. What they will not do is redo a character and level it all up again. The majority player does not have that kind of time.
“Personal attack with no merit or proof (from here on referred to as an “ad hominem” or logical fallacy in which one uses a personal attack to detract from an argument). Also assuming you have more experience playing mmorpg’s and this somehow makes your opinion into fact.”
And thats why you youngins get so upset these days in this new generation. Wondering why the older guys get the job and pay you want, able to do the things you wanna do, get ahead of you in your line of work, and wonder how, you with all your degrees and diplomas and certifications isnt getting you the pay or job over the guy who is 10-20 years your senior. Its because he has experience. They know more than you do, they seen more than you do, they invested more than you do. Thus why their opinions are more weighted and has more FACT than yours do. Thats life kid.
You cannot balance classes. Ever, no mmo has achieved this, then you stated Opinion. No its not an Opinion, its a Fact, again your blinding yourself due to ignorance and inexperience. Their is not one single MMO where all classes are balanced, their will always be one class thats overpowered in all regards, or multiple classes that people will want over the other. I shall give you examples since your new gen.
Everquest 2: Guardians and Paladins can both tank in the start. But Paladins were bad at it compared to the Guardian, eventually Paladins got buffed up, but Guardians are still the more wanted tank both MT and OT. Thus screwing the Paladin into Niche roles.
WoW: Almost invented the “FoTM” Class term. Like I stated before, a Blizzard Developer who is more knowledgeable, experienced, and better paid than you are, stated himself as a warning to any MMO developer. “Never make a game with a Skill Tree system, it is impossible to balance”
ESO: 4 classes, and they cant balance them at all, been what, two years now? Dragon Knights are nerfed to all hell to the point people rerolled, most DKs dont even have more than two of their own class abilities on bar now. Nightblade still OP as all hell and capable of killing anyone one on one, even one on three. And if they are in trouble, they can almost infinitely dodge roll, stealth and escape. Dots cant stop em, AoEs cant stop em, they can just constantly cloak it off.
TERA: Same issue as any other, FoTM classes, Reapers were OP for awhile, fixed them but buffed slayers up making them gods in PVP.
So no, its not opinion, its fact, you just refuse to look into it yourself and try to fanboy it up, its really sad to be a fanboy, 99 percent of fanboys are usually blind.
So I said Its a bad design choice NOT to have a level/class reset. no its not an opinion, its a fact, you can look back to past mmos who didnt had respec for major decisions that could affect greatly how your character can perform for the rest of its days and players called out and bitched for it, eventually getting said respec, most mmo devs now will be smart about it and place the ability to do said respec at the start, either for ingame coin, micro-transaction or both, making the majority playerbase happy. Its not an opinion but a Fact, your just too lazy to look it up yourself cuz again, your inexperienced.
“Another personal attack instead of actual debate”
Well then if you would stop stating things showing how ignorant you are, you wouldn’t be called out now would you?
“Yet another personal attack instead of actual debate”
Players who would go against having something like this, are the kind who has too much time on their hands, thus likely on welfare, working part time, or is inherently rich, or is lucky to have one of those work at home jobs, I seen all every single type of player before, from the basement dweller to the foreign 19 year old girl who is on a forced sex trade having to stop playing sometimes because shes called upon to go please a random man for 30 mins doing god knows what. But back to the topic on hand the kinda player who has all that time and wants to cockblock all the casual/low time players are the ones who do not want a class reset feature, just so they can feel special that they got it right the first time, or the second time and been lucky with the nerfs and buffs and has all the time in the world to be able to level back up quickly in 1/6th the time it took someone who doesnt have much time to play. Which will turn off the casual player who wants a more even ground. Thus the need for class reset.
Its no appeal to probability. Its drawing from what you yourself lack, experience. So I will state the Pros for you.
PRO: More potential revenue for the game thus going to the localization team to keep up updates with the Korean counterpart of the game.
Gives players peace of mind that all their hard work and achievement gathering, grinding, crafting, and so forth, wont go down the drain if their choices end up being bad or nerfed to hell down the road.
Players will be able to experiment, trying out different combinations by respeccing over and over until they find a combination of classes that best suits their playstyle.
Gives the developers alot more breathing room and flexibility to make changes and adjustments to the classes, knowing that if they overlooked something or screwed something up, the players will be able to adapt and make the needed class changes.
CONS: High playtime “Grinder” players wont get to feel unique and special if they found a perfect combination of classes for their intended playstyle and role.
Will introduce cookie-cutter builds alot of players will follow.
No, I just know due to experience. But it is wise of you to realize we are not alone in this universe of ours. In all the trillions of years the universe has existed, theirs no way other planets could not have been bombarded by asteroids carrying forms of bacteria thus starting the circle of life. Well done though lad, not many people comes to this realization so early.
In all honesty? I personally want the exp rates back down to 1x from the CBT2 3x. Im sure more quests will open up. But if you were to give advice to a low time playing/casual player that his “Build is bad, reroll” and he spent over six months to get to that level and point, and get frustrated that he gets passed up for groups PVE/PVP-wise cuz of players with better builds out there. You think hes gonna reroll and do it all again? No, what he is gonna do is go on the forum. make a thread with a title such as “Quitting ToS, and here is the reason why” and then state how hes upset with this or that and wishing their was a respec system for his class choices. This is the Majority Casual player. Sure they may state along the road something like “I dun give a damn if my class choices suck, I play cuz its fun” and sure they will say that now, but then later on when they cant do anything due to their choices and the only option for them is to reroll a new lv 1 character and do hours of research on a build that works for them, you really think they gonna stick around? Or, they gonna just hop onto the next mmo? Because this isnt the only ARPG 2.5 coming out right now, their are others Korea is churning out, one in particular I seen has incredible promise and looks flat out gorgeous.
Again, its been proven, its been proven since the dawn of the MMO, the very least since Everquest, sure Ultima Online and MUDS came before it, but that was the first instance of when it became so apparent. However, Everquest was so rudimentary back then what with no instancing and everything can be raided with as many people you can bring in that any sorta class ostracizing, was done in exp groups only. I remember times on my Paladin people didnt want me in group unless I was willing to be a back up healer and back up healer only, meaning I sit down with the friggen Druid healer and just get up to throw heals as need be, only fighting when situation is desperate. While the other hybrid class thats far more DPS oriented, the Shadow Knight think Death Knight or Dark Knight gets to do whatever the hell he wanted.
I stated that I found this information from other forums and boards over a year ago which came from translated Korean news and conferences. It could be mistranslation, or it could not. Is level 600 really confirmed? Or is it the first cap? Is it 200? Its honestly up to the developers what it is, but dont be surprised when it really does go up to 900, or beyond. This is afterall, a grinding game. Judging from the searches and forums I checked, people are stating 200, 250, 400, 600, and beyond. Some people even want NO level cap. So its still up in the air, but the level cap for CBT is not final.
And sadly the uninformed is wrong. A game that is considered “Grindy” is basically that, everything you need to achieve takes certain high lvs of grinding be it leveling up, crafting, finding that rare item, etc. “Hardcore” relates to content difficulty. Many of Wildstars dungeons and adventures prior to the sweeping nerfs was considered “Hardcore” due to the immense difficulty and need of great teamwork to accomplish them, much less get the gold medal rating for them. A “Hardcore” player, is one who excels at doing high difficulty content, doing things as fast and efficiently as possible, not someone who can go mining for ores for 18 hours in a day to get some achievement. Anyone can do that, but to do it constantly is to be called a “Grinder”. He isnt a “Hardcore Grinder” because its likely the content he is doing to get those mining nodes, has no difficulty or high risk to be able to do so for so long in a day.
A Casual player. Is someone who just plays it for fun, may do hard things from time to time, but usually does not go out of his way to practice constantly with others and put more time in to get better and better at it, treating the game like a second job. Their are “Casual” players who play up to 8 hours a day, but sees the game as a form of stress release, than a competition.
It would be a very bad idea not to include it. Yes it can basically make players do really stupid builds that works for solo grinding so they can grind to the top then change sure, but then again their will be players who make mistakes, didnt know their class skills actually used this or that stat, or generally screw things up for themselves. For a game with stat point allocation, stat reset is a basic need, and should be provided, plus it can generate micro-transaction revenue.
Its completely logical. Players respec all the time, they could spend 5 dollars on a respec scroll, then spend 5 dollars again, and again, if nessecary, to test things out, or to fix a mistake. By the time they realize it they put 200+ dollars into the game and yet, do not feel bad about it. Thus more dollar signs for the Dev/Publisher.
Tch tch tch. Your inexperience is talking again. Every single mmo I played, and I played a tremendous amount, that has some form of stat allocation, or custom skill specs, skill trees, or heavy branching class choices, will have respec features for those who make a mistake. As for branching class choices though, that entirely depends on how long it takes to get from 1 to max level. In MMOS where this can be achieved in under a month even for casual 2-4 hour a day players, the likeliness of branching class respec may not happen, since its easy to just relevel a character again if you do not like where ya ended up. But in a game where it can take a casual player up to a year to reach max level, or even high lv? Definitely has to have a respec feature, or players will abandon the game if they screwed up, hell, likely wont even try out the game at all out of fear of screwing up and having to live with it, and the massive time lost.
Assumption? Clearly you dont understand how business works. This isnt a charity or a work of love, MMOs are a business. Your lack of experience shows again. next.
Hey, he was acting like a spoiled kid, so I called him out on it. he hasnt denied it yet.
Read what I stated about the differences between Grinding and Hardcore. I worry about our education system sometimes…sighs.
If you cant handle the truth then oh well. Again your wrong on what the hardcore term means, because your new gen.
What I was stating is in RL decisions have weight. This is a game, a MMO infact, we should not be punished and have to live with making wrong/bad decisions without some way to rectify it and make it better. Games are supposed to be fun, its not fun to have to reroll an entire character just because the devs failed to put in the needed features to allow you to correct things for a fee either ingame or thru microtransactions. Otherwise why keep playing? Can go to another MMO that doesnt punish you for doing things wrong.
Ever heard of Dragon Quest X? JP only MMO right now. Uses alot of ideas from FFXI, while bringing in the innovations of today making things better. The only difference is, they pull in all the GOOD things that WORKED that all players LIKED. Only reason a MMO fails is if it doesnt listen to the majority customer, the casuals. Thats why WoW stays afloat, its why FFXIV revived in 2.0 and is still doing extremely well today. SE made both DQX and FFXIV btw.
Super Casual? Seems you really fail on your terms here. TERA and Wildstar are FAR from “Super Casual”. It gets pretty grindy and hardcore in the end, for wildstar before nerfs, it was hardcore the entire way. Skyforge is definitely hard in alot of content, very challenging for Tanks but the game is a serious Grinder.
It doesnt matter if RO didnt had it in the beginning, it eventually got it anyway due to the Majority player “The Casuals” asked for it, and they got it, because they are the ones paying the most money. Again, Business, learn it.
Because of the way he carried himself and how he wants everything hardcore, restrictive, and biased against the casual player, I therefore summarized that he is a Hardcore Grinder player, which in the MMO Market, is a even smaller minority than the standard, “Hardcore” player. Seriously though, learn the difference between the terms. So far the game hasnt shown any difficulty yet to warrant it being a “Hardcore” game.
And I love it when I gotta keep whipping youngins like you over and over again. You think its wrong, but your new gen, your inexperienced, and you do not know what your talking about. Again, your understanding of what Hardcore is, is flat out wrong, and the real hardcore players will laugh at you if you claimed yourself to be “Hardcore” yet you fail at moderately difficult content. Oh but I play 18 hours a day, I must be hardcore? Wrong.
Not according to their publishers no. They lost tons of players before they were able to fix things up, sure they got the sub money and the initial buy in purchase money, but after the hype died down, game went downhill immensely, and they had to change a ton of things to attract the majority player, the Casuals.
Have you been dropped often as a child? What does that have ANYTHING to do with what I said?
I have surmised that you are not fit for normal society. Due to your lack of mental thinking, thus bringing up alot of very bad counter-arguements due to lack of experience, and otherwise BSery. Please try again once you calmed yourself and can think with Logic, your clearly outclassed.
Thats about as much as I need to read. Anymore and im going have an aneurysm from laughing too hard.
No but seriously you just replied to a post criticizing your inability to debate a topic by using only logical fallacies with another couple pages of logical fallacies.
Do you understand what a logical fallacy is? This feels like a debate between a person and an ad-lib generator that refutes any debate with poorly constructed insults.
The best part is where you write 3 more pages of logical fallacy filled junk and then write this little gem. You heard it here first guys, logical debate based on fact and merit is just a bunch of BSery. Typing poorly constructed insults is the future of logical discourse.
As both of you have failed to convince the other over a very large amount of written word, perhaps it it time to consider that you are both wrong, or at least, misled in some way?
Make your next post from the other side of the argument.
Alex, make a post about the positives of solid character progression. There are many arguments that Isaac hasn’t mentioned.
Isaac, do the opposite. There must surely be a reason that all recent MMOs have offered such character resets, examine those reasons.
Have all recent mmorpg’s had character resets? Im playing another mmorpg right now that doesn’t. That aside I never argued against him. I simply stated the fact that the game doesn’t currently have this feature and that myself and others would prefer it stay that way.
The level of debate offered by alexandrious2001 is of such low quality that I regret bothering to have it in the first place. I literally called him out on using a straw-man argument and he replied with a straw-man to distract from the first one. He actually at one point argue’s against a well backed up fact with “your wrong”. That’s not a debate that is just some self-delusion of infallibility as if the man’s beliefs are made fact. He actually claims his opinions are 100% fact as if he knows the future and if you attempt to persuade him to logic he will simply resort to various logical fallacies such as ad hominems and straw-man arguments.
My mistake was expecting any decent discussion on a public mmorpg forum. I often forget that it doesn’t take a great amount of intelligence to learn how to type or speak english.
Lastly, this isn’t even the topic of the thread. Not that it matters much but your trying to facilitate an off-topic conversation that isn’t even close to the original topic and is mostly about two guys (Victor_Sant and Alexandrius2001) having an argument of opinion (please don’t make me explain what that is -,-).
You state you personal opinions and speculation as facts, you trying to insult people intellect, claiming that they are kids and idiotos, you level of arrogance is so high that it’s absurd.
Whatever, i won’t argue with someone like you. Your arguments are flawed and bad, they are just personal baseless speculation, i pointed a lot of reason to show that, but you are so blind to your own point that is not capable of looking the other side.
[quote=“alexandrious2001, post:119, topic:104437”]
alot of you youngins only played mmos for 3-6 years, so ill set you straight.
[/quote]I play MMOs since 2000. I don’t know what the "2001’ in your name means, but if it’s your birth age, i play MMOs for more time tha you were alive.
tldr; @alexandrious2001 you are just a POSER, posing as a intellectual and experienced game, but your opinios are of a spoiled brat that don’t want to grind two chars because made mistakes building one and post your personal opinions as global facts.
Anyway, like i said, you can dream, but the absurd things you claim will.not.happen.
There is only one place for someone with such mentality: on the blocked user list.
Let’s get back to discussing actual relevant things rather than meaningless rage-filled arguments about how much intellect someone has:
Using your stat value from that document earlier, I fixed some wizard things that were wrong / incomplete:
Energy Bolt will alway multiply the final damage by x1.5. Doesn’t matter what enemy, the bonus will always be there, it’s built into the skill. It hits twice too, but that’s just something visual: the combined value of both hits is the actual damage from the tooltip.
Energy Bolt is 3516. How and where the Sleep-related attribute fits into this I do not know.
While Lethargy is active, Earthquake will always hit twice, putting that value at 3945.
Ice Bolt works identical to Energy Bolt, being boosted by x1.5 no matter the enemy, for 3901 damage. The Ice-property modifier does interact strangely with it however, as it doesn’t just boost it by another 50% on enemies weak to ice. On everything neutral to ice however, the calculations turn out correct.
Ice Pike can hit anywhere from once to three times, depending on the size of the enemy and your relative position. Most bosses can take 3 hits for 8463 damage.
You completely skipped Ice Wall too, but I still need to figure out how much damage each ice projectile does and if it changes with skill level or not. I do know each fired projectile can hit seperately, so having a few melees hack away on an 8 tile Ice Wall is pretty insane damage if the boss is close enough. On their own (with a staff or dagger) Cryo’s can hit two tiles for 6 projectiles.
I don’t include skill interactions like sleep+energy bolt or lethargy+earthquake. I plan to update this once all the classes are released (hopefully in kOBT)
Well, okay, that’s fair enough. But you’re still missing the x1.5 boost that is always applied to Ice and Energy Bolt, or the multiple hits on Ice Pike (which actually hits 4 times if you space it right).
Yah those are already in the private version of the sheet along with a ton of other things ive been working on (still havent got numbers for gust…)
Somehow the G-Star 2015 video has me convinced they will finish releasing all the classes for kOBT.
The new versions going to be interactive in that you can put in your attack and defense values yourself and it will show minimum and maximum damage which i’ll use for skills like icepike, barbed shot etc that can do more or less hits.
The main thing of note though is even with 1.5x multiplier it’s barely worth using energy bolt (at least ice bolt can freeze).
Sorry kiddos, was busy playing Fallout 4 which, sadly, isnt doing too well, Todd screwed it up beyond what Modders could fix. But thats a whole nother thing.
So you blocked me cuz you got upset that you are wrong and are completely ignorant about how MMOs and the business of MMOs work. Well ok, you took the childs way out, understandable, likely why you wont get ahead in life, you are unable to learn and accept when you are wrong.
For one thing well since you blocked me but its apparent others shouldn’t have to believe your tripe. You have not played mmos since 2000, if you did, you wouldn’t be so completely ignorant about how mmos work. The only poser around here is you, if you played since 2000, you wouldn’t be making such idiotic remarks that reeks of ignorance. That is a fact.
So why are you lying? You obviously came from the WoW Generation, WoW being your first mmo, and WoW clearly did not come out in the year 2000. So I honestly think it was a good idea on your part to bail out before looking more an idiot.
I responded to posts from you and one other who has a complete inability to use logic, to figure out and determine how MMOs work and how they change and adapt towards the needs of the business. You stated my Facts were “Opinions” due to you being too ignorant to see how many past MMOs pretty much did everything I stated as “Fact” and you continued to go on thinking its “Opinion” because you believe ToS is gonna do things differently from all those mmos of before. Its hilarious when you seem to think that, the company creating ToS after all, doesn’t have even 1/10th the money Square Enix or Blizzard has, they are not gonna target the niche hardcore-grinder crowd just to appease to at a minimum, less than 10k players who will want that sorta thing in a market already saturated with all sorts of mmos or online lobby rpgs that may offer something similar, such as Diablo 3 for instance and its pretty much, infinite paragon leveling system.
I actually did make positives, you and the others likely failed to read it, as usual. So ill restate it in a quick format.
The positives of solid character progression, from a business standpoint, is that the player, hence the customer, wont have to feel that his choices are gonna turn out bad as he goes along. Pouring hours and hours into what he is playing, he should feel that no matter what he does, as he progresses his character, he wont ever be turned out from groups for having a bad setup, or a bad combination, that he will keep getting a stronger and better character as he plays the game.
Sadly, that is what would happen in a ideal world. A game like ToS with its high amount of class choosing freedom, many players will make many bad mistakes, creating characters that in the end are not efficient, and will be significantly weaker to those who did built perfectly, to the point that he could be doing 3x your damage, can take hits and survive 3x better, or has better healing and support than you do and would override any buffs and debuffs you can do. Also the fact that its impossible, and again for the idiot with his “opinions” because he is uneducated and ignorant, it is impossible, to ever balance every single class, to ever be rock paper scissors, their will always be at least one class, at least one, that will be the meteor to your scissors, the acid to your rock, the urine to your paper. Like I said, even ESO with its 4 class, just its 4, cant even get the classes balanced, and they had two years to try so far.
Therefore frustration sets in, the player with the bad build feels insecure about his class, that he feels like he failed. So of course, that is why the game will have a class respec option. Which honestly isnt so hard to do, we take a player who went, lets take cleric example again, went Cleric Cleric, Priest, Priest, Sadhu, Monk. He finds that Sadhu does absolute jack for him, and one circle of monk hardly gives him the DPS he needs to be a combat fist fighting healer, that the extra circle of Cleric is wasted. So he pays the 15 bucks to respec, which is profit for the Dev/Pub. He can now go back as Cleric, but still have all the skill lvs saved into his characters data. He simply redo the quests needed to advance each class/circle, while doing any new ones for different choices. Its not hard.
So with a class/respec option fully in mind, the majority player aka the casual, wont have to feel that 6-9 months down the road, as he is leveling his character in the 400s, the 500s, the 600s and beyond whatever lv cap game will be at by that time, that he will never feel he wasted a year in time doing his build, because if it turns out underpowered and does not mesh well with what he wants to do or that with groups, he can pay to respec his class choices. And if he does decide to make a change, or everytime balancing changes happen, they can respec, thus more money for the developer/publisher, thus more happy players, thus more players staying with the game buying other stuff thru micro-transaction. The devs/publisher knows this and will take advantage of it. This games freedom of choice isnt like RO or Maple Story, it has way more freedom of choice than those, like 10x more freedom due to how the class system works and thus far more ways to permanently screw up your character you spend over a thousand hours on. A casual player will not stick with a game, or even play a game, if he feels he can put alot of time into it, but in the end due to balancing changes or just him not doing enough research, he wasted tons of time being forced to start over cuz he screwed up. Will he stay to level another character from 1 to 600+ grinding on the same place, in the same enviroments at least RO had way more flavor in grind spots over time, hopefully ToS will too putting in months even a year of work with a new build?
No, he will not.
So again, I spank your butts, you kids cry out, and keep back-talking due to being upset that you cant accept the real truth to the market.
Their will be a class/circle respec option, if this game wants to make ANY MONEY, either that, or high Exp boosters turning what could be a awesome long grind, into something anyone can do, id rather have the class/circle respec, its gonna be one or the other, but class/circle is the lesser evil here.
The game WILL cater to the majority market as it goes along, even if the devs think somehow, someway, catering to the hardcore-grinder will make the most profit, but I doubt it, its a Korean company and they know how the western market works to the point that as the game gets localized for the WEST, it will change drastically on how everything functions compared to the Korean version, because I will remind you again, localization does not just mean to “Translate to another language”. It also means to change core systems, gameplay aspects, add censorship, to fit the marketed demo-graph of the consumer who will mostly be playing the product.
I am sorry that the both of you two does not understands how business works. But that is why one lied about playing mmos since the year 2000 cuz if he did, he would have a much greater understanding of how mmos as a business, works in this day and age without even the need of getting an education in business like I have. While the other is just a dumb fanboy who trolls just to troll, fully realizing that he is wrong, he just does not care. He wants sources when he can easily look it up himself, do some research, but since he clearly cannot do that, either out of laziness or he simply just doesn’t know how, it just further shows he knows absolutely nothing of what he is talking about, that he is trolling for the sake of trolling.
So sorry kid, the only one who is broken is you, your brain, therefore your logic is broken. I suggest staying out of any line of work that requires use of your brain. I am sure you will be a great ditch digger though.
Actually people blocked you because your incapable of having an actual conversation and your level of argument is around that of an infant yelling 'NOOOOO IM RIGHT YOU’RE A POOPY HEAD"
Showing more ignorance eh kiddo? No, the one person blocked me because like you, he couldnt accept the fact that he is wrong, that he didnt expect someone who knows more about how the world works would correct him.
But indeed, I am right. I know I am right because I been around mmos for a long, long time, I know how it all works as a business, how it evolved from the near two decades ago to how things are now. It turned from an actual conversation to me lecturing the two of you when you both proceeded to making completely ignorant, uneducated guesses and statements that anyone can disapprove with a simple google search. In regards to you yourself, you kept blindingly thinking everything I said was “opinion” when in reality, its all “facts” that can be found thru a simple romp of the search engine.
I advise that you do some research next time before trying to debate with someone like myself who knows more than you do. You will pop less blood vessels that way.
Now I just noticed that blocking this jerk did not stop showing his new messages, this is sad, how I will protect myself from reading such ammount of stupidity? =/
[quote=“alexandrious2001, post:136, topic:104437”]
Showing more ignorance eh kiddo? No, the one person blocked me because like you, he couldnt accept the fact that he is wrong, that he didnt expect someone who knows more about how the world works would correct him.
[/quote]No, I blocked you because you are arrogant and without arguments. You just claim your opinios as facts and insults those who disagree. This by itself show how wrong you are.
Anyway, continue on your delusional world where you are right, and everyone else is wrong. I will now argue with a door, because a door is more smart than you (at last the door don’t answer with such BS as you do) ;D
Claim you “won” this as much you want, your arguments (or should i say lack of arguments) is there to show that you don’t have a valid point and is just sptting a lot of BS.
I think i will just unfollow this topic, it started as a good discussion, but this idiot just made the threat a pool of sh***.
Well, while newer skills may be stronger in base values, keep in mind, that aslong as you get a very high damage stat, and eventually get your dmg attribute to 100% more damage, your lower skills will continually scale off your evergrowing attack/m-attack. This is really important for skills that multi-hit especially since they will pretty much always be relevant since they apply your additionial damage several times in one go.
Eg. If you have 2000 m-attack later on, even though the skill fireball lvl 15 may only offer 324 base damage, add 2000 to that and multiply it by 2 and then 15 and you have a skill that does a total of 69,720 that can be overheated right away for 139,440 damage. This number will continue to grow as your int goes up and as you get better weapons. Say even later you have 3000 m-attack. Your fireball will then do 99720 damage, 199,440 overheated. I imagine that the skill would still be worthwhile with that level of growth.
Thats actually the main point being addressed. Biggest is looking at swordsman classes. The entire classes of highlander/barbarian with high level attack still only do 4k-5k dmg each while hoplites stab skill can do 50k+. In other words people taking highlander/barbarian are going to be very sad later when they wasted a bunch of circles and realize the only real choice for starting swordsman was sword3 or sword/peltesta1/hoplite1 into whatever.
Other classes have the same problem though. Sappers spike shooter also can do 15 hits but almost all archer classes have some good multihit skill though. Still, I wouldn’t want to take wugushi or rogue and find I took the only archer classes that don’t have a massive multihit dps skill.
Also really nice to see a post that’s actually on topic lol. Wtb mods to clear the 50 posts above lol.
