Tree of Savior Forum

The way classes are designed to fall off every 3 circles

General Discussion
#101

[quote=“Zilox, post:97, topic:104437”]
Lmao. Its not impossible to balance classes
[/quote]Balance is subjective. I would say the game is already pretty balanced considering that each class has its niche and role to play (but obviously some skills need polishment).

But the “community” keeps crying because Cryo doesn’t have the same damage as Pyro or stupid things like that, which makes no sense.

[quote=“isaacvithurston, post:93, topic:104437”]
Yup, well this isn’t a “max level” mmo anyways.
[/quote]IMC never said this game is meant to be a grindfest, nor that they will develope Rank 11 classes for no one to get. People complained about how bad it was to level up and each korean CBT had higher exp rates than the last.

As a new and small developer, they will not survive with this game if it becomes the playground of only a handful of grind lovers. No, don’t think there actually is a big and representative player base like this.

#102

I’m actually agreeing with you. For me balance isnt when every class can do everything/the same, but when every class is good as something/has a role they are good on

#103

you/others constantly forget that level and job level are seperate. We have rank 6 before level 200 and probobly rank 11 before 400. Leaves 200 levels of grinding while you already have max skills/job.

Im not sure if there’s a huge playerbase of grinders in NA but there sure is in Korea. There’s a reason Lineage 1 is still the biggest game over there.

It honestly sounds like alot of people are straight up in denial though. It takes 3-5k mobs to level at level 170 (1-2k with 3x beta rates) and people still wan’t to pretend it’s not a grinder. Quests help but there’s gonna be alot more grinding at release.

#104

Actually. I can probably grind faster and more efficiently than you ever could in any mmo >.> Since I been doin it in far worse grinds since before you ever played your first mmo which is likely WoW. Im just being realistic here since I know the current market trends and how the major customer, the casual player, is gonna react. From whats been said and told though, the game has atm, a potential cap, wont know if they will at release give it all right now, or what, but a potential cap of Level 900 and Rank 90. You really gotta be out of your mind if you think they will not put in a class respec system either by release or later on.

#105

They already said like 900 times the cap is 600 and rank 10 (with 11 for “hidden” classes).

#106

The potential cap is 600 and rank 10-12(job/rank exp needed raises exponentially) btw, dunno where you got your numbers from. My first MMO was Ragnarok online btw, at the beginning grinding was hard, but when we had majorous/nifflheim I was able to get from 1 to 99 in 1 week and a half ^^.

#107

It was from some interview with the devs I read about a long time back, was all in korean, the guy probably mistranslated but he did state lv cap of 900 and Rank Cap of 90, but that it may not all come out at once. The Devs intending for the grind to be almost never-ending that only few people will ever reach Max level, but endgame content will be based around the average player lv and I hope not, cuz then it be too easy

Also, Everquest Grind was as bad, if not worse than Ragnarok Online, depending on where your at and situation, FFXI coming third among-st the three. But at least in RO you can grind solo depending on build, Everquest you absolutely needed a group for most classes and can take up to an hour depending on your guild and social situation to get a group together and then get to the intended grind spot. As well as the fact EQ Exp loss on death penalty was worse than ROs Exp loss on death and much harder to avoid, even if you happened to have a Cleric in group you will still suffer a 4-10 percent loss, no cleric in group most clerics will actually charge your group to Exp Raise you.

But again. both these games was from 10+ years ago, when things were very rudimentary and much more featureless. Now its the year 2015, and things such as skill/attribute respec for games like this is expected, and since Classes branching from your base class is a User Freedom of choice which can lead to bad decisions or unexpected nerfs/buffs, a Class respec is expected as well.

#108

You are the clueless one here. It is intended to get Rank 6 before level 200, because it scales to be close to the level of equipment tiers.
15, 40, 75, 120, 175 are equipment levels and 14, 42, 79, 127 and 181 are around the base levels you will get to Rank up, and they are also the levels the exp curve changes.
Following this pattern we can assume future tresholds are 240, 315, 400, 495 and 600.

So no, we won’t have 200 levels of free grind. We will take Rank 11 at 600 and will have to grind skill points from there.

[quote=“isaacvithurston, post:103, topic:104437”]
There’s a reason Lineage 1 is still the biggest game over there.
[/quote]You are delusional.

League of Legends, FIFA and Sudden Attack are played more than Lineage there since a long time, and this year even Blade and Soul, Starcraft and Dungeon and Fighter surpassed Lineage.

[quote=“isaacvithurston, post:105, topic:104437, full:true”]
They already said like 900 times the cap is 600 and rank 10 (with 11 for “hidden” classes).
[/quote]They never said the hidden classes would be Rank 11 only.
On their blog they only said hidden classes are planned to appear starting at Rank 8, but that could change until the final version.

1 Like
#109

Adding bad system just for people “not quitting” is not good, because this system itself will make people quits anyway (the people that don’t like this system). Which side is bigger? Who know. That’s why they needs to work better the classes design and balance. To reduce the ammount of people that go with a class expecting one thing and getting something totally different. Now if people screw up with their character, it’s their fault.

[quote=“alexandrious2001, post:86, topic:104437”]
But what if one day some class combination, or my choice of classes prevents me from attaining Army Chaplain?
[/quote]Your decisions have weight, want things the easy way? Not everyone wants. It’s very obvious that this game is designed for hardcore gameplay (with 600 levels there is no way to argue against that). And you talking about having to create a new character if your high level is not what you wanted it to be… in most games you have to do it anyway.

[quote=“alexandrious2001, post:86, topic:104437”]
Its a bad design choice NOT to have a level/class reset. Your just gonna turn off people from the game, or preemptively prevent new players from wanting to play the game if they find out that the character they gotta put tons of time into could ultimately end up being a crap player.
[/quote]If the classes are balanced, this risk is very low. What cause this is the fact that classes aren’t balanced. And this is just a excuse. A LOT of sucessful games do not have reset systems and people just don’t stop playing those games just because of that. If the leveling is not boring (as it is showing to be here, another issue they should solve) people will create 2, 3, 4, 6 different character and will go all the way up. And i’m not even talking about the big ones, like WoW and FFXIV.

BTW, RO skill reset was a cash shop item, and a very expensive one. And RO never had a class Reset (the rebirth system was just another lazy design, you were mostly forced to go the same path as the first time, because if you didn’t, you wouldn’t become transclass).

[quote=“alexandrious2001, post:90, topic:104437”]
Bottom line, alot of the classes in ToS is just throwaways/stepping stones to the higher classes with more sought after skills and potentials.
[/quote]Yes, and this is the issue they should solve, not add a new one so they could keep that…

The most i would like are Status points/Skill points reset (This will eventually come as cash shop items). But class reset? Never.
This would also be very expoitable. People would make full PvE build for fast grinds, then simply change for another class when done with grinding.

#110

Sighs, another inexperienced kid I gotta spank.

“If the classes are balanced, this risk is very low.”

Classes will never be balance,d and you say.

“A LOT of sucessful games do not have reset systems and people just dont stop playing those games just because of that”

A LOT of successful games dont have a level cap that reaches to 600+ which can take the majority player who pays the most money, the Casual player, up to a year or more depending on the exp rates. Seeing as this is CBT2 and apparently, the exp rates at this time is at 3x and their has been no indication if its gonna stay 3x or go back to 1x standard, its gonna take the casual player, the player who actually pays the most money on this game about 5x more time, unlike the 5k or so RO vets who can play 6-16 hours a day and likely spend 1/5th as much money either because they dont need to or they cant afford to unlike most casual players who will have full time jobs. Ill make an example here. Here is you, the uneducated “Hardcore” player whos got lots of time on his hands.

Victor_sant: wtf!? I am level 580 and they took that same swordsman dps that is 50 levels below me just because his build is WAY better than mines!? SCREW THIS! Ill copy or make a better build! Oh wait, cant class respec, sighs, guess ill level another character then, I only got 20 hours of work this month and the next so eh, if I put in 14 hours or so a day and transfer gear, I should be back to level 580 in say, 2 months, derp maybe 3. Hehe.

Here is a casual player who either works full time, has obligations, or simply cant stare at a screen for more than 3 hours.

Casual Player: Wait, so I get denied a group because that person is using a min-maxed build that is superior to mine? And I cant change my class build either…game has no reset, I spent over a year getting to this lv and I am constantly losing out on groups to get endgame gear because people keep taking Swordsman with better builds than mine. Man, glad I didnt put much money so far into the cash shop, sure as hell not starting over again. Woulda payed 40 bucks even if I could class respec. Oh welp, games no fun anymore then, wow what a bad design. Ill just go play Everquest Next or something.

Casual or hardcore player with Bot use: Pfft, grinding is for suckers, ill just use my bot to grind for me while I eat, sleep and work, could give a damn if I am adding to the problem of KSing and cheating. I got a life to live, to hell what some nerds think.

“People would make full PvE build for fast grinds, then simply change fr another class when done with grinding”

RO did sorta the same, seen plenty of people use a max dps build to be able to solo or group grind efficiently before respec of skill/status points to settle into the wanted build they wished to do either for farming purposes, PVP, Difficulty PVE areas and what not. I can already tell that their is gonna be, if no Circle/Class respec comes out on release or soon after, that their will be very, very few people with similar to my intended class choices, because it isnt ideal for multitarget DPSing, its more for single and relies on buffing and debuffing. While everyone else runs around gathering up 20-30 mobs and throwing the aoes down on them. Infact, just dont expect many healers at all, I know certain class choices for Clerics can do some serious aoe dmg but not as much as the other three base.

“Its very obvious this game is designed for hardcore gameplay”

Is it really? No, its designed so far to be a long grind. But hardcore? Hardly, all the bosses seem simple, if I wanted to I can just auto-attack them all to death and barely have to even dodge much. Maybe it will change in dungeons but due to the overall simplicity of it all, I noticed alot of builds completely forgo the Con Stat simply because the extra HP isnt needed. That everything can be dodged specially for the ranged classes. So hardcore? Heh no. Grindy? Yes. Is it wise to make a game intended for the hardcore crowd? No. Because the casual crowd, the PAYING crowd, outnumbers us “Hardcore” players 1000:1. Every MMO that tried to cater to that niche hardcore crowd I seen in recent years ended up failing, closing down servers, and resorting to F2P, ending up doing P2W or alot of micro-transactions just to keep the lights on.

A Class Respec system is going to happen. The game will lose tremendous revenue due to how its designed and how long it “Potentially” takes for a player to go from 1 to 600+. The only way around it, is to add some sorta account-wide “Extra Leveling” system like Diablo 3s Paragon Points, or ESOs champion points that enables you to gain special points to use into passives or what not to make not only your main stronger, but any new chars you create can use the total amount of points gained so far across all chars too making them very strong from the start and able to breeze thru the levels much more quickly at say 4x the rate in the event you need to reroll.

Sorry laddie, but thats business.

Edit: Also seriously, you youngins need to figure out the meaning between Hardcore/Grindy/Casual. This game isnt “Hardcore”. Least not from what I seen as of yet, and even if the grind to max lv took a player 20 hours a day for an entire year to achieve, it will still not make the game “Hardcore”. I suggest figuring out for yourselves what “Hardcore” means. Seriously, its getting quite silly how that term gets tossed around.

1 Like
#111

Maybe on some private server or recent patch. I played RO for 2 years from beta (before advanced jobs even) and it took over a year just for people to hit 90.

@alexandrious2001

Thats why everquest progression servers came out recently and were hugely popular. People are sick of 1month max level and quit mmo’s.

Also hardcore is basically synonymous for grindy in the mmo genre although you can define it however you want personally, masses set the definition of a word.

Kind of a strange argument anyways about whether they should or shouldn’t have the ability to change classes. Did you even realize the stat reset scroll isn’t even confirmed permanent (hence why it says “closed beta use” next to it).

@Satoru

You could just go look at known xp already and see the future curve resets at 237, 287 and probably continuing on every 50-60 levels. Not sure why you would assume a sudden jump from 50-60 levels per rank to 95-105 lol

FIFA, Sudden Attack and LoL aren’t mmo’s not sure why you would mention them when I said most played mmo. Casual games like those will always have more players in korea while PCbangs are popular, easy to go there with friends and play those games even if you never played or seldom play. Countertrike was the most popular game among my friends growing up and hanging out at net cafe’s. Wasn’t any one of our favorite game though.

Overall a crapton of speculation in this thread with very little actual facts about anything going on.

#112

The uninformed made it “synonymous” for grindy. When in reality its meaning is for something completely different. You noticed how alot of single player or even some online coop games would have a “Hardcore” difficulty setting? Because thats what it is, Hardcore is basically content of immense difficulty created for the “Hardcore” player, the kinda player who will min-max, create complex strategies to beat the encounter, do teamwork training with his party members to accomplish the task, that is what “Hardcore” truly is.

As for the Stat reset scroll. It would be a very stupid idea not to make it permanent, why have us test something if they arnt gonna put it in? Just so players can respec stats in the beta to try out other builds? That would be ridiculous. Respec items are a KEY bread and butter cash shop item. This is a Korean created MMO. No way would they not have those scroll ups on the cash shop for people to spend real money to use. Its necessary for any B2P or F2P game to have Respec items providing the games character progression system makes use of freely spent points to make revenue. Even ESO gives an option of buying a respec scroll from its cash shop, or purchase for a amount of gold, ingame a respec.

#113

Nope, not recent patch. Did this on the 8 episode update(february 23,2004). Could also be done as soon as majorous map was available. The thing bout RO is people didnt know where to grind at the beginning. Partying at majoruros(lowest cave 2, glast heim) gave so much exp it was ridiculous.

#114

It’s not sudden. If you look at the numbers the gap between tresholds is “last gap + 10”.
15 to 40 the gap is 25.
40 to 75 the gap is 35.
75 to 120 the gap is 45.
And so on.

Besides, it makes sense the last tier of equipment to be at the cap, and you Rank up close to those tresholds.

[quote=“isaacvithurston, post:111, topic:104437”]
FIFA, Sudden Attack and LoL aren’t mmo’s not sure why you would mention them when I said most played mmo. Casual games like those will always have more players in korea while PCbangs are popular, easy to go there with friends and play those games even if you never played or seldom play. Countertrike was the most popular game among my friends growing up and hanging out at net cafe’s. Wasn’t any one of our favorite game though.
[/quote]You said “game”.
Either way, its not even the most played MMO there, and not having many MMOs on the list just shows that they are not willing to waste time grinding.

I don’t know how Lineage works, but if it has such a grind as you say, they must have made it enjoyable somehow, something that 98% of other hard grind games don’t have, since it is the only one there.

#115

Sure it gave alot of xp but not that much lol. Still took forever there unless your talking about some 3x private server.

@alexandrious2001 Maybe like half the mmo’s i’ve played have stat reset scroll. some don’t even have skill reset. At this point all we can do is speculate about whats in the shop. Anything from pure cosmetics to xp pots, weapon upgrade fail prevention or whatever, we don’t know. I was just making a note that the stat reset is marked for closed beta testing may suggest they don’t want to let people do full str/int into full con which would make me really sad leveling up my full con character but that’s life (and ill have a party anyways).

#116

I think it’s: 15(r2)->42(r3)->80(r4)->125(r5)->175/180(r6) with the cap being Lv200.

#117

For a game thats gonna have constantly changing balances to everything, and its gonna live off of Microtransactions, skill reset scroll purchases are gonna be needed, with Circle/Class respec being a high priority. Depending on the nature of the MMO determines what form of resets it needs, if even necessary. But any mmo that allows customization of your character thru points gained from some form of leveling will have a respec feature one way or the other to prevent players from rage quitting if something goes wrong. Just how it is.

#118

You’re being the kid here. And a very spoiled one.

[quote=“alexandrious2001, post:110, topic:104437”]
A LOT of successful games dont have a level cap that reaches to 600+
[/quote]You talk like leveling each of the 600 level would take the same as other games with less level. Just because there are 600 level, it doesn’t means that each level will take the same time as a game with let’s say 100 levels. While in one game you can up 1 level/hour, in other you can up 3 leveles/hour.

This 600 levels are subjetive. You don’t have something concrete about the TIME it takes to go to level cap. So don’t use the level cap as a base for your argument, because 600 level is different from “very long time”. This will depend on the rates, that are still being worked on.

The big number do not necessarely reflect long time. We are at the second week of beta and there are already people at lvl 200. While some other games at the same stage woulndn’t even have people at 100.

[quote=“alexandrious2001, post:110, topic:104437”]
RO did sorta the same, seen plenty of people use a max dps build to be able to solo or group grind efficiently before respec of skill/status points to settle into the wanted build they wished to do either for farming purposes, PVP, Difficulty PVE areas and what not.
[/quote]And are you saying that was a good thing? For me, that was a VERY BAD THING. And also, on ragnarok, this was just with stat and skill points. Ragnarok NEVER allowed class changing for this.

And it is fun how you mention Ragnarok. Ragnarok was a game that whenever the new classes got introduced (transclass and 3rd classes), some classes simply become useless.
For example. GC Crusader was an excellent class, then it become very bad when Paladin. Did ragnarok ever allowed to change class because of that? NO. Ragnarok is a game that don’t allow what you suggesting, it only allows status and skill points reset. If your class become bad because an eng game class is better, you.have.to.create.a.new.character.
Next time, make sure to use an example that supports your point, not one that don’t. :astonished:

[quote=“alexandrious2001, post:110, topic:104437”]
Victor_sant: wtf!? I am level 580 and they took that same swordsman dps that is 50 levels below me just because his build is WAY better than mines!? SCREW THIS! Ill copy or make a better build! Oh wait, cant class respec, sighs, guess ill level another character then, I only got 20 hours of work this month and the next so eh, if I put in 14 hours or so a day and transfer gear, I should be back to level 580 in say, 2 months, derp maybe 3. Hehe.
[/quote]So what? Your decisions have weight, you build your character classes wrong? YOUR FAULT.
Make a new one and don’t pick wrong classes. Cry how much you want, this is how things ever been in most MMOs.
Those who picks wrong classes generally have to create a new character. Status and Skills points can be reseted in most games, but** NO GAME ALLOWS CLASS RESET UNLESS IT’S A CORE FEATURE OF THE GAME** (wich is not the case here).

Now if this is an issue with the class balance, the developers should balance things, not simply introduce a system like that to make a bad mending to a issue they will not fix.

I don’t get your logic, you say that they must do something to be sucessful, but MOST of sucessful games do not do what you are saying.
Maybe that is because all your whims have NOTHING to do with the success of the game?

Also, you are assuming that everyone is like you, wich is not the case. The same way people who can’t reset their classes might quit, people might quit because of the reset class system, that can lead to a boring experience where everyone use the “same perfect builds”.

There are more sides than simply the side you are in, somethign called TARGET AUDIENCE, maybe you, and the “ones who will quit because can’t choose classes and will have to start over again” aren’t the target. (And i don’t seem to be a target either, since there are a lot of things i don’t agree with, and most are design decisions so are very unlikely to change).

So “laddie”, it seems that you are the one who don’t know a F* about business.

[quote=“alexandrious2001, post:110, topic:104437”]
A Class Respec system is going to happen.
[/quote]A man can dream :grin: Just don’t get your hopes high.

#119

Sighs. Christ. Look I get it you wanna be an idiot and troll cuz you know your wrong, I get that, your inexperienced, you dont even know what your talking about. You have no way of knowing how the world works, maybe your some idealist or have perma rose tinted glasses on. So Ill outline it again for you.

  1. MMOs are a business. If the Developers/Publishers see a way to make money, they are going to take it especially if it is both beneficial for them and the customer. In this case, a Class Respec system is going to happen. The only Alternative, is to provide a way to buy Exp Scrolls that can 2, 3, 4x your exp gains enabling you to level up quickly. Either which way is going to happen. Which would you rather have? People being able to get to max level in up to 1/4th the time it take someone who doesnt buy the scrolls, or the ability to class respec? This isnt 1998-2007 anymore kiddo. Stop being naive.

  2. Your the spoiled kid here. You want the game to be this perfect grind where the top players will be the ones who happen to have the best builds and put in over 70 hours a week into the game to be able to pwn everyone else in content, and hardly anyone can challenge them unless they too put in that amount of time or more and get the best build on their second, or third character taking months to level back up to the top.

  3. This is NOT a hardcore MMO. Least not from what been seen so far for difficulty. This is a grinding MMO. RO was able to get away with some things but it didnt have the level of user freedom, thus error, that ToS will have. Stop throwing the hardcore term. Again your lack of experience shows.

  4. Decisions have weight? Sure in RL. This is a game kiddo. And your wrong, this isnt how things ever been in most mmos. Not for mmos past the year 2007 or so at least. Many mmos now that has any form of user freedom to build/customize your character to be unique, will have a Respec option of some sort for the various customizations. Since your a inexperienced pleb, ill list several.

EQ2: You can respec your AA Points, though unneeded since you can eventually get them all, it was there anyway.
WoW: Talent Respec always available for a gold fee.
RO: Skill/Stat Respec
FFXIV: Stat Respec via use of Hymns.
ESO: Respec available for Champ Points, skills, Morph of skills, and attributes.
Rift: Big one here, you can RESPEC YOUR CLASSES AKA SOULS via class trainer.
TERA: Can respec your glyphs as needed.
Star Wars The Old Republic: Respec at trainers.
Wildstar: Can Respec your amps.
Skyforge: Can respec your talents/symbols at any time.

In the end this is a game, your decisions in a game specially in a MMO if it regards how your character performs or what he can or cannot do should not be permanent. That is why one of the most highly asked for questions in any new mmo is “Will there be a Respec option?” and the developer would be a fool not to provide someway to respec your abilities/stats, or even progressing class choices so long as it has a gigantic influence on your character. You scream Nay, but your a minority when it comes to the market and this developer isnt making this MMO to please and appeal the niche hardcore crowd/RO Vet crowd of 6000-10000 potential players. They are gonna appeal to the MMO playing Majority of over 10+ Million players that is looking for something fun, easy on the system requirements to play, has charm to it, and wont screw them over on any bad choices made like say a guy goes cleric/cleric/cleric/priest/priest/priest and finds out he has way too much healing and lacking alot of potential he could have but now hes level 185+ after spending 1-3 months depending on playtime to get there and he doesnt want to start over, so he quits the game.

But if their is a 15 dollar class respec, option, or can purchase about 20-40 dollars in Exp Boosting scrolls/pots that gives at least, 100 percent more exp. Then he will stick around, purchase whichever is available, and start over again.

Dont get your hopes high, you can dream of a hardcore mmo, but keep in mind, hardcore doesnt = grind. The term for hardcore has changed since a decade ago and does not mean what most thinks anymore. A few mmos tried to target the “Hardcore” niche, guess what? They all went F2P or B2P, have microtransactions now and severely nerfed the DIFFICULTY of the content.

As for “Developers should balance things” do you even read what you type? Classes will never be perfectly balanced, their will always be exploits to be found, and key combinations that will become OP. The more class’s their are, the more impossible it becomes to balance. ESO cant even balance the FOUR, FOUR CLASSES they have. The worst kinda MMO to balance though? Is the one with a Skill Tree setup, which is what ToS has in a sorta indirect way, as per a quote from a Blizzard High Ranking Developer. “Never ever design a game with skill trees, it is impossible to balance”

Also gonna remind you again, this isnt Ragnarok Online, spiritual successor sure, but doesn’t mean its gotta do any of the negatives RO had. And as I stated before, you had FAR, LESS, FREEDOM to customize your character in RO compared to ToS. To the point that in RO user error is almost minimum, that the only real way to screw yourself is by NOT leveling to MAX job before the next class change. Your class path is pretty much determined when you select your second job. In ToS you can go whichever way you want, class being determined from the absolute START. Thus with all that freedom, screwing up your build can happen, nerfs to what you selected can happen, things that are gamebreaking to you can happen. And since this isnt the decade of 2000 anymore, and the majority mmo player are people with full time jobs, lives, wife, kids, commitments who can only play 2-4 hours a day, the prospect of spending up to a year to get to max lv only to find out your class choices are severely limiting you and you gotta level it all up again is NOT an OPTION. Players will leave, players will stop spending money, Korean Devs are fully aware of how the Western MMO Market works, and will provide ways to make life better for the majority player, which again is High Exp Scrolls, or a Class respec.

Now before you embarrass yourself any further and have this old man kick your arse again, and again, and again. Just stop posting and accept your wrong. I highly suggest you do some actual research on the genre you been playing before you try to spew more B.S. But also, stop living in the past, come live with us in the present, where people wont call you a pleb for trying to appeal to very old, obsolete ideas that can ruin a game. Thanks.

#120

I really want to know what type of intellect allows a person to argue about speculation while using phrases like “kiddo” and “your wrong” to argue opinion.

I don’t think I’ve read anything factual or with substance in like 40 posts now and the last 60 haven’t even been on topic.