This topic and this https://docs.google.com/document/d/1U_QNAKRSgKNN3K8LDRaDgBq8JFqnT51dvPqXpULFZkg/edit
need some serious attention from IMCGames
Hello fireball/flame ground. 2 skills that 15/15 do way more damage then 1 meteor, with less cooldown.
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Honestly none of this would be a friggen issue if the devs just made a way to reset your class/circle choices. It wouldnât be hard to do. Oh well, once enough people yell and complain they will do it.
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[quote=âZilox, post:82, topic:104437, full:trueâ]
Hello fireball/flame ground. 2 skills that 15/15 do way more damage then 1 meteor, with less cooldown.
[/quote]They conditionally do more damage. And thatâs only because enemy AI is very dumb and enemies have litte movement other than run toward the player. Against player that actually moves out of the range of those skill, they are pretty bad.
[quote=âfitzfeliz, post:83, topic:104437â]
due to how the game works and scales, as long as you have 100% attribute, every skill is relevant as it directly doubles the eficiency of your ATK/MATK, and the added attribute ends up being just a bonus, even with base skill damage,
[/quote]Yes because 500 (atk) + 500 (skill damage) x 2 is equal 500 (atk) + 1000 (skill damage) x2, no wait⌠one result is 2000, the other is 3000 (a huge difference IMO). As the link that @delgar89 you would need a base atk of around 5000 (str/int + weapon) to this difference to acutally stop being huge.
Also this is a very bad design and balance decision. Making skill damage efficiency fluctuates to much. Having some skills to be stronger than another is needed. But the way it is, some skills that are strong, but have some disvantage to balance (high damage/high cooldowns or high damage/single target) become less useful because weaker skills with advantage (low damage/big range, low damage/low cooldown).
Another issue is that if things are this way (skill additional damage arenât relevant at higher levels) we have another issue: late game skills will be all level 1 unless they have additional effects on higher level, since lower level skill consume less SP so can be spammed more.
In my opinion a good design is:
- Skill A is fast, but have lower damage
- Skill B is slow, but have higher damage
Skill A will be always weaker no matter of what stage of the game we are. So the choice will be always about their speed. If you want fast, go A, if you want go strong go B. If things goes as you suggest, On the start you will use skill B, when the damage difference is more relevant, on the late game, you will go skill A, because itâs faster, and the damage difference is no longer a issue.
[quote=âalexandrious2001, post:84, topic:104437â]
Honestly none of this would be a friggen issue if the devs just made a way to reset your class/circle choices.
[/quote]This wouldnât help the intended class diversity. People would just rest to the âstronger setupâ or worse, the whole class system losing itâs meaning, since people would just reset to a different class according to their needs.
They donât need such bad design choice such as level or class reset. They need a better balance for the game, and the issue is like i said: the current damage and skill formulas are **very **hard to balance, and allied with the bad design decisions (such as making classes outdated intentionally, or putting much hinders on skill use to force people to use auto attack) make the game balance ridiculous bad.
And i doubt that ICM will do like Gravity with Ragnarok 2 or Square Enix with Final Fantasy XIV: making such a major revamp to the game as they did, so i donât expect the final product to be very different than what we have now.
Yea and? Better than said people rerolling and quitting, or not playing the game at all out of fear of their 500, 800, 1000 hours of grinding going down the drain if they find out their chosen classes is a total mess, not viable, and prevents them from getting groups or doing pvp well at all.
Sighs, but alot of you youngins only played mmos for 3-6 years, so ill set you straight.
You cannot balance classes. Ever, no mmo has achieved this, the more classes their are, the more impossible it is to balance, even ESO with its 4 classes, FOUR CLASSES Zenimax Online CANNOT balance them, they make sweeping blind nerfs and buffs with little to no testing and even today after what, 2 years? They still cannot get it right, and thats just with FOUR CLASSES.
Its a bad design choice NOT to have a level/class reset. Your just gonna turn off people from the game, or preemptively prevent new players from wanting to play the game if they find out that the character they gotta put tons of time into could ultimately end up being a crap player.
So lets say I go Cleric, Priest, Priest, Pally Pally Pally. Cuz I enjoy the Paladin class and like the Diversity of being able to Tank/DPS/Support/Heal. I go 2 str, 1 con, 1 Spr and every 30 lvs a point into Dex. Sure ill be Well balanced, Ill hit hard, can take hits, have good SP and Magic Defense. Sure as hell alot of carry weight which is good for Potions and if im right, long as I have potions which seems to be on a 20-30 second cooldown, ill never run out of SP. But what if one day some class combination, or my choice of classes prevents me from attaining Army Chaplain? And I am like lv 800+ Rank 70+ which took me god knows how long to grind? Judging from what im seeing in exp grinding depending on if I do things solo or group getting to 800+ could take me 6 months if I play casually like 3-4 hours a day, or hell even up to a year, we dont know yet, this game some of its creators is the same guys who did RO and that took about a year of serious grind to even reach the max cap possible in it now and few ever reached that. So your telling me that when I see a player able to do Amazing things and pwn everyone at being the âHealerâ class, making my ability to do what I do seem obsolete, that I just roll a new cleric and do all that grind again?
Yea no, If I recall right this game is gonna be Buy2Play model, and then with micro-transactions for things like skill reset, pets, maybe storage space and whatever? Well for it to survive its gonna need alot of players. I dont recall if RO had a skill reset for every single thing you may have picked when transitioning from class to class, I do know however that you could screw yourself by not waiting till the max job lv possible, losing out on Job points, but that is a MMOARPG from over ten years ago, and its very hard to honestly screw yourself on that game so long as you grinded ALL the job lvs, You were able to skill/attribute point reset if nessecary. This was during the days of Everquest, FFXI, mmos made with the mindset that only Hardcore players who spend 6-18 hours a day would be playing. This is 2015 now. With F2P and B2P models and alot less use of the P2P model unless the mmo does incredibly well enough to render having a P2P model, such as WoW and FFXIV. It isnt gonna be the RO Veterans that will pay to keep the lights on for this game, its gonna be the casual majority, like in every other game, that keeps the servers going. And a gigantic turn off for the casual player would be if his year of work turns out to be a colossal mistake that he cannot change, due to bad class choices. This is 20x more liable to screw over a player than ROs system would.
Level/Class reset is needed.
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Theyâll never do it on release ^^. Beats the purpose of having a complex class system
Of course they wont do it on Release, they are gonna wait until half the people playing the game screams for it first, which is what most devs do, and its not a good thing to do either, but they got alot more than a Class reset system to worry about right now, so stuff like this is usually later on. But it will get added eventually, its inevitable unless they dont like money. Because you KNOW they gonna charge up to 15 dollars to do said reset each time in Icoins.
I dont see a need for this. Can you randomly change your class/race on wow?
You must be new to MMOs. WoWs class system is astronomically different from what ToS has. In WoW you pick one class at the beginning, you can select the option to start it off at near max lv, spend like 2-3 days getting it to said max lv and youll even have Raid gear to start off with to get you into your first raid. Pretty much you can talent respec or change your crafts, unless they did away with all that, I havent kept up with WoW in years because I blame it for creating the new generation of players most of which ruins alot of mmos, so I get some nausea just talking about WoW, but they pretty much oversimplified WoW and I wouldnt be surprised if they did away with alot of the builds and customization players once had making everything fall into a few cookie cutters, but you had Dual specs, probably tripple specs now, and resets.
If you dont see a need for this, your likely unemployed and able to play 10-16 hours a day, or working part time. Getting to max or even high lv in ToS is universes different from WoW, and will be a major turn off if your class selections cant be redone. In-fact it be a gigantic waste of potential revenue if they did not allow the ability to do it via the games Cash Shop, since their will be so many players who will likely want to change class/circle selections anytime an update makes/breaks certain classes.
Bottom line, alot of the classes in ToS is just throwaways/stepping stones to the higher classes with more sought after skills and potentials. A player could be 4-7 different classes if he wanted to but in the end, be totally screwed and all those hundreds upon hundreds of hours he spent getting to a high lv and rank was all for nothing. Will he Reroll and do it all again? Most wont, they will scream for a Class Respec. The four classes we start with, Warrior, Cleric, Archer, Wizard, are just base classes, kinda like the first job change after the RO Novice that defines what your capabilities are, after that it pretty much branches out but ToS has way more freedom for that than RO, but because it has many times the freedom, it invites many times to screw things up, where as in RO long as you do a little research, and get all job points available, you will be fine. Yes buffs and nerfs will happen, but it wont be any fault of yours and you can respec skills and stat points as you need to.
But in ToS no, you cant do that, your not one class line. Your MANY classes, 3 or more classes. Big difference here.
Iâm an economist, work at a bank and atm Iâm also studying. So your point about me playing 10-16 h a day is moot. I play 4-5 hours a day and 6-8 at weekends(maybe more if Iâve nothing else to do on weekends, but hey those are weekends and I can use my free time as I like ^^).
Getting to max level shouldnt be something you make in 1 or 2 months, it should take time lol. This generation of people that desire to max in 1-2 months is astonishing. Just enjoy the â â â â â â â ride.
Also with your âsystemâ Iâd only need to max 4 characters(one of each branch) and then play any class I want. Why would I gimp myself choosing a class that is hard to level up with (peltasta/full tank swordie) when I could just pick barb/highlander, get to 600 and then reset to tank? Your system is too flawed, sry.
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I really donât like this idea since it would just promote switching into cookie cutter classes rather than actually balancing them and making choice viable.
Yup, well this isnât a âmax levelâ mmo anyways. If someone did manage to hit max level they would probably find themselves with nothing too do.
I just find it hilarious that the masses of casual players canât figure out that making it faster or slower for them also makes it faster or slower for everyone. Itâs like a racer asking for faster stock cars and somehow thinking it doesnât also mean faster stock cars for his opponents.
Sighs, yea you are a novice with mmos and how business in mmos work. Your thinking is flawed. The casual player who plays 2-3 hours a day maybe even less, will not want to play, much less give money via micro-transactions to a game if he feels he can put 6-8 months into the game to reach max lv, only to find his build may be eternally gimp due to bad class choices. The smart experienced mmo player will see the 80+ Classes and will know without a doubt, that it will be impossible to balance, that âTop Tierâ builds will happen and you will get tons of players and guilds who will not wanna bring âGimp Buildsâ into any endgame/pvp with them depending on how all that is designed. The player will get frustrated, and instead of rerolling another class to spend yet another 6-8 months getting back to that high lv, he will quit, and take his money elsewhere.
Providing a class reset will not only keep players in the game, but other benefits too, it will encourage players to experiment, it will encourage players to actually play the game without fear that if they screw up the build, its ok, they can pay RL money on the shop to respec. It will also provide tremendous revenue to the developer/publisher that in all business sense, they should not pass up on.
Way too many Pros over the Cons in putting in a class reset feature. Iâm sorry but I been around mmos long enough, 16+ years infact, and I flat out know they will put in a class respec system, either they become smart about it early and put it in, or the majority of disgruntled players will ask for it, giving the ultimatum that they will quit if not done so. Much as some players think they do not want this reset system, you need to keep in mind that their will be some elite players who managed to get the âPerfectâ build, and will **** on all the other players with their weak builds in PVE/PVP, causing massive frustration. Because Ill remind you again, it is impossible to balance all classes, and this game has over eighty of them. It cannot be done.
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The devs are targeting the grinder niche with this game is the thing. They donât care if casuals quit because the market for casual mmoâs is over-saturated as it is. Also offtopic. If they have an option of alienating the hardcore or the casual they choose to alienate the casual with this title.
Also offtopic >.>
Again, if ESO cant balance its four classes, if FFXIV cant Balance its classes made worse now with Heavensward, if World of Warcraft cant balance its classes. You really think ToS with its 80+ classes, several times more classes than the mentioned mmos have, can balance them all? Maybe if each class had only 3-4 skills, but they dont. They all have up to seven. Sorry but thats the reality.
Lmao. Its not impossible to balance classes, you will always have FoTM classes but those will rotate over time, as it happens in every damn game. I know a bunch of people that choose their classes not because its OP but because they like what it does.
If monk was not good or FOTM, Iâd still pick monk because I can throw a â â â â â â â kameha from my hands. The same way some people would pick elementalist just to throw a meteor, or some people wugushi because they like that kind of playstyle.
Iâve been playing MMOs for 12 years, so gj you have 4 years above me. Played: RO,Dragon Nest,Maple Story,WOW,GW,GW2,Granado Espada and a bunch of others(Skyforge too). And from all of those the only game stupid enough to allow you to change classes freely was Skyforge.
Remember the last MMO or two that targeted the grinder/hardcore niche? Didnt do too well did it? Went Free2play recently. Also drastically changed how the game works and functions to bring in/back the casual PAYING majority player. Ill give you a hint, NCsoft, another Korean publisher/developer, Published it.
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I understand you dislike grinding and want to be treaten like a baby the same way WoW does and let you get to max level in 5 minutes, but I hope this isnt that kind of game ^^.
Not sure what game your referring to but NCsoft hasnât published anything hardcore since Lineage 2. Everything after that was just a 1 month in, max level and quit for my guild which is probably why they failed.
Itâs also alot easier to balance this game when the damage formula is simple and thereâs really only 1 OP thing to balance already (multi-hit skills).