Tree of Savior Forum

The way classes are designed to fall off every 3 circles

General Discussion
#61

Can I be that guy and say I told you?
/shot

Ice Pike hits small enemies 1~2 times, medium enemies 2~3 times and large enemies 3~4 times (i think even more for bosses, like up to 6 times). Gust does several hits on frozen targets, don’t know how many, nor for Rolling, but both are multi-hit.

Considering all the CC, it is pretty good. :confused:

Telekinesis hits the primary target 8 times, yes, but it also has a small AoE where the ground is hit, damaging 3 or so enemies. The damage is considerably weaker tho.

Flesh Cannon does 8 hits or so as I heard (didn’t pay attention when I had a Necro), and has AoE range of 5.
Flesh Hoop is not damage per second, it has a maximum number of hits (close to 10 I think, also didn’t pay attenton).

Dirty Pole only has 1 hit, which knocks enemies up. Corpse Tower is the skill that leaves a sieg tower shooting lasers of poison for up to 50s, lol.

#62

Well I did say I could be wrong since we were just guessing hypotheticals xD

The biggest problem is the skills where I don’t know the number of hits or how many ticks of damage per second (gust). I also didn’t know about Ice Pike multiple hits. Gust aside cryo still looks super underwhelming later. I wan’t to say cryo could be good when going for pure utility like chrono but I think chrono would be one of the classes id wan’t surecast on (especially until/if they fix spells canceled via some cc going on CD and being canceled. Having a 300cd skill just whiff and go on CD is bad).

Alot of the descriptions of skills are lacking or flat our wrong. I need more people to provide missing data like what you provided. I will make corrections on the above skills after breakfast ;p

I also need max AoE numbers for practically every swordsman skill since they are mostly listed as 1 on info sites (but logging into a level 1 swordsman proves thrust/bash have AoE of 4)

@victor_sant
As a huge PvP/GvG fan I too really hope they pull out some balance. It could even be something as simple as a -60% damage (and healing) reduction in PvP. Although it’s worth noting that arena PvP already uses standardized white gears (so i’ve heard). Im not a fan of standardized gear for balancing since as a PvPer I like to imagine my PvE efforts effect my PvP strength >.<

#63

[quote=“isaacvithurston, post:62, topic:104437”]
I also need max AoE numbers for practically every swordsman skill since they are mostly listed as 1 on info sites (but logging into a level 1 swordsman proves thrust/bash have AoE of 4)
[/quote]AoE attack range is correct on TosBase, because it doesn’t take the character base AoE range in count.

Swordsman and Wizard have 3 AoE attack range as default. Cleric has 1. Archer has 0.

Thus, 1 AoE range from Thrust becomes 4. And equips may further increase it.

But yeah, multi-hitting is still not the strongest point of the skill simulator.

#64

Ahh. Damn. I just play wizard and cleric sofar so I didn’t know this. Now I can get to work on the AoE damage numbers >.<

#65

Ice Wall/Ice Pillar will stay useful for a long while, Gust and Blast is meh because you can’t freeze bosses.

#66

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

#67

The thing with both overheat and attributes is you just double the number. Although I could add overheat to the notes incase someone doesn’t know the skill has it.

The entire point of the analysis was to see how lower rank classes hold up at high levels though and it for the most part disproves my initial conclusion that lower rank classes would be useless later (although many early buffs are actually useless later).

Ofc if you wan’t to know what damage to expect at lower levels you can do the same math with actual level 170 weapons that exist but that wasn’t the purpose of this.

The only other thing of note is there is still 12 unknown classes with the rank 10 classes being the biggest unknown (if they continue to scale at 50% power roughly you can imagine what comes after druid >.>)

#68

Either way, I think the debate aside the lesson devs can take from this thread is that we don’t want to have classes becoming obsolete, so any change to help make things scale well in the endgame would be more than welcome.

#69

Yup. A huge draw of this game is the “80 classes” and if someone comes, see’s a class they find super interesting only to find it’s useless later. Well thats 1 less player maybe >.<

#70

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

#71

It’s not about being 100% useless or not. It’s when a clear winner is declared to the extent that anyone would take that class over another.

I mean you can go melee sorcerers in diablo 2 and it’s not useless but there’s a reason cookie cutter builds exist in most games. I won’t take a clearly much worse class no matter how much I like the classes concept.

#72

Tell that to the swordsman with his buffs that gives around 100 dmg each (in the late game people deal 5000+ damage with attacks, 100-200 difference is hardly noticeable). and with attack skills with additional damage of 300-400.(while the other classes have additional damage of 1000+ some even with multiple hits at those).

Also the Devs themselves said they designed the game to be like this, with higher rank classes skills replacing lower rank skills. In the end going C3 to build up that attack skill to max level will be useless, because higher rank skill will outdamage it easily (unless the said attack skill have some utility beyond their damage, wich is not the case for most damage oriented skill, skills with utility have lower damage output).

This is me. But not only the class system, but all the mechanical aspect of the are bad in my opinion.

#73

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

#74

It’s fun for you to say 'trying to reason" when you had no argument at all. You just stated something (that is not eve true) and hope that people just accept that? Yeah, this seem the way to do things.

If you really wanted to reason anything, you would post something contructive. Not just a random meme.

2 Likes
#75

The thing is, this whole argument is based on classes that aren’t even on the same rank

They’re incomparable because they’re not even competing.

You want better comparison? Try Highlander C3 vs Highlander 1 Barb 1 + whatever it is you want to pick at rank 4. These are both rank 4 options so they’re actually choices that compete to be chosen.

It’s like saying “why use lv 40 weapon at all when lv 75 weapons are much better”

If you’re saying going C3 in a class is useless, then what is your justification for picking more classes (the alternative)? More skills to use? Oh wait they’re all worthless because higher rank skill will ALWAYS out-damage them EASILY right?

#76

No? Most skills deal damage of (base attack+skill damage+hits). If you have a skill that is from a C1 class that hits say, 4 times, it could be better than a very high rank skill that hits once.

A good example of this is Flame Ground, a C1 pyromancer skill. It is a small AoE that hits many, many times. Compare it to Meteor, which at level 10 deals 400%magic attack +3229, once to it’s AoE.

Assume I have a base magic attack of 1000. lvl 10 Meteor will hit for ~7000, and lvl1 Flame Ground will hit for ~1000 however many times it hits. If it hits more than 7 times over its 16 second duration, Flame Ground did more damage.

But also consider Ice Bolt. Ice Bolt hits once and has no AoE. All it is at high levels is a slow basic attack. Ice bolt will be outgrown by every player with a circle of Cryomancer.

Also also consider Enchant Fire. +70 attack damage for 15 ranks? We don’t even take a skill like that with the current level cap.

The problem we’re considering is a theoretical Flame Ground V2 at circle 10, that hits a ton of times at 100%+heaps of damage.

#77

This is making me play less each day in this beta, i always think hey lets get my barbarian than i remember that it ill be useles on release, same with highlander, in the end i know ill go for swordsman c3, highlander c1 for bufs and dopel for dmg.
same with other classes, i dont want to spend the whole week leveling a class that ill never use on release.
they should make skills of the starting classes be useful in the end or everybody ill pick the “base” class to c3, other 2 ones for buffs and half the game classes ill be useless

#78

Yup I even had to login and test to see if multihit skills like multishot/stab scale like that and they do. I mean just looking at the charts, stab can do like 40-50k while all highlander/barb skill can do like 4-5k with same stats. So why would I take anything except sword1/peltesta1/hoplite1 into whatever for the finish (peltesta for aoe taunt, cant just swap to shield if your final class is a dual wielder) and hoplite for stab.

I think my favorite combo is something like sword1/peltesta1/hoplite3/corsair1 with corsair being just for the flag/hook skills for a pvp build or doppelsoldier1 for pve.

#79

sword c3 has restrain, highlander c1 has the crit and 2handed stats, the other one i dont know maybe corsair for hook and key stuff

#80

It’s exactly that, Except by 3 skills that are over the power level of the other skills (Cartar Stroke, Helm Chopper and Seism), this is exactly what happens. C3 skills from lower rank classes get outclasses even by C2 skills (in some cases even C1 skills) from higher rank. This reduce a LOT the customization of the character, wich is one of the main selling points of the game.

In general it’s not different from let’s say Priston Tale, where we have 10 base classes, and each of them have 5 tiers. They cuold simply advertise “we have 50 classes”, but actually are just 10 classes with 5 tiers.
This is the feeling that ToS is giving, we don’t have “80 classes”, but just 4, with several tiers. The only difference is that priston is a single path, while ToS have some different paths to reach the same result (and some of them are VERY bad paths, and people can’t even discover that until they already made the mistake).