The way classes are designed to fall off every 3 circles

[wild2west]

with 6 ranks we can really take whatever class we want because the damage from rank 2 classes are still relevant. But if the game is going to rank 10, them this 50%matk+50%castspeed will scale insanely while pyromancer skills will scale horrible. I’m not advocating that we should be able to use low ranks skills for damage, but at least we should not have such an steroid available in a rank1 class on its 3rd circle because it makes the other rank1/rank2 classes useless in comparsion. Same with archer c3 25% crit buff from swiftstep attribute. It will be so better at rank 10 than having quarrel or ranger dmg skills or nonscaling buffs (i’m talking about steady aim).

[cosx774]

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[wild2west]

I agree with you 100%
But let’s not make this thread a discussion about balance of different class trees, because the actual problem resides in some classes on the same tree being worthless compared to others not about wiz x cleric or things like this. It’s easier to buff/nerf classes if they get too OP or too weak at release. But it’s not easy to change entire damage formulas or how every skill scale in this game so I think that if we want to point any necessary topic about this ASAP so IMC can take a look at it. Because if they dont some classes will be so powerful at rank 10 that if you choice any other you just destroy your character by making it inferior compared to everyone else.

[cosx774]

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[meiohjp]

Is there a link to this interview? Because that sounds completely retarded, out of this world really. God bless you and have fun leveling up to R7~ with mostly support circles to empower your R8~10.

[wild2west]

We have 4 hidden ranks with 4 skills each. Out of these 16 new skills even if only 4 you pick will be damage skills, they will be superior to past rank damage skills so the cooldown is not a problem because the “long cooldown high nukes” are now 4 or even 6 (considering already superior R5/R6 skills) skills that you can use on the almost 100% uptime matk+castime buff. So filler skills because long cooldown s not an argument. Same for archer. Why not pick a 25% crit buff if you’re not using any of the ranger skills anymore because you dont need any cooldown filler? Ranger only buff is flat and cant scale.

[cosx774]

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[cosx774]

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[Satoru]

[quote=“lyhonlam69, post:35, topic:104437”]
Numbers don’t lie, just take a look at those awesome numbers before and after quick cast (my matk is 359):Magic missile (+25% attribute) and Hail (14% attribute):
[/quote]This random pics don’t answer my question, nor they show how one skill from Elementalist outdamage two skills from Pyro as you bet.

Don’t bother answering me if you don’t know math.

How good wiz3 is really depends on how important spike damage is later on. Quick cast might be the most powerful steroid in the game, if you have enough skills to cast in 8 seconds.

The base damage of from skills eventually becomes paltry compared to total damage right? That incentivizes players to get as many different skills as possible.The only skills really worth leveling will be ones that have some utility to level, like Ice Wall’s greater number of walls or Electrocute’s number of targets. Fireball is a fairly decent example of a good skill to level, as it gains 100% of its base damage each level by gaining an extra hit.1 point in a lot of skills will make your character more versatile, and thus stronger.

Also, most damage skills also have that 1%/attribute ability that will help them keep up; as new circle skills won’t have that double base damage.

@dmhamilt gets what I am trying to say. If you have few skills with high cooldown, taking more skills will out DPS Quick Cast. If you have a decent number of skills already, it is a different story.

[quote=“dmhamilt, post:38, topic:104437”]
Say, I’ve heard tell that the Enhance attribute only effects the skills actual damage, as in (int+weapon+skill*enhance)Can anyone test that?
[/quote]No, enhance works after taking base and weapon atk in consideration. I just answered another topic about it.

[Suggestion] Flatten the DEX

We haven't figured how the damage formula actually is, we only have a grasp of the overall thinking. Either way, your level and the attribute level is too low to actually make a difference. I have a level 100 Wizard on KR with 344 MATK. On a monster from Tenet Chapel (Yognome), my basic attack does 309 damage with no magic amplification. My level 1 Fire Ball (74 base damage) with level 40 Enhance Attribute does 536 damage. Yognome is lightning type and has plate armor, so no bonuses coming…

[quote=“wild2west, post:39, topic:104437”]
It’s not just a wiz problem. Archers that are not running archer C3 are going to lose 25% crit buff just because they want to play quarrel shooter or ranger.
[/quote]Hunter, Wugushi and Falconer are all good classes and they don’t benefit from Swift Step’s Attribute, since poison can’t crit and your pets have their own critical chance.

[quote=“wild2west, post:39, topic:104437”]
IMC should really take a look at this right now or the game will be terrible with many useless classes that are “noob traps” that everyone will regret so much later on.
[/quote]Extremely biased argument.

[quote=“wild2west, post:41, topic:104437”]
while pyromancer skills will scale horrible
[/quote]Over 3000% of your MATK in just one skill that can be cast twice before cooldown, so bad…

Sure, maybe Quick Cast will be better if you only take DPS classes from Rank 4 to 11. But not everyone wants this, so you can’t say “Wiz 3 is a must for all players”, like I said how Archer 2 is not a must for all Archers.

[cosx774]

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[wild2west]

I understand your argument Satoru. Maybe things runs better after we see the 4 later ranks. It’s still possible for IMC to nerf quick cast or even swift step attribute if needed after launch

[Ryougi]

Switch Surespell in c2 with Magic Missile in c3 so people will feel less inclined to quit playing Wiz.

[fabiohenm]

I feel the same. I don’t get the purpose of having 80 classes if ultimately on the few ones from the last ranks will make a difference.

[Yukinari]

[quote=“Satoru, post:49, topic:104437, full:true”]

Numbers don’t lie, just take a look at those awesome numbers before and after quick cast (my matk is 359):Magic missile (+25% attribute) and Hail (14% attribute):
[/quote]This random pics don’t answer my question, nor they show how one skill from Elementalist outdamage two skills from Pyro as you bet.

Don’t bother answering me if you don’t know math.

Real numbers are best numbers bro, all calculations are just estimates. Okay, let take a quick math:
Wiz 3-Ele3 vs Wiz1-Pyro 2- Ele 3 (both have the same 2000matk, leave out mamp and enemy mdef since they are random)
Quick cast + Frost Cloud vs Frost Cloud + Fire pillar (all lv5 and 0% enhance attribute). I don’t know how many ticks per sec of Frost Cloud but let assume they are the same.

Quick cast + Frost Cloud: (643 + 2000) x 1.5 = 3964 per tick
Frost Cloud + Fire pillar: (643 + 2000) + (161 + 2000) = 4804

Ok, i maybe exaggerated a bit but my point still stand, quick cast + Frost Cloud is still better choice, u have less cast time, less animation, no interrupt, wider aoe range (fire piilar has smallish range) and with that you can burst more dmg if u has more skills. And this is a rank 3 vs rank 6 skill, the gaps will get more big as you progressing since quick cast can scale more with stronger skills but fire pillar will not.
The only downsize is quick cast has only 8secs but rarely any boss stay at the same spot over 10secs anyway.

Edit: i forgot to mention, you would have more money to upgrade your strongest skills rather than those “filler” skills.

The cast-speed increase is useless also for a lot of wiz classes because they don’t have cast-times. The 50% matk is only really game changing on a couple of high base damage + scaling skills, these skills have long cooldowns. In other words, it’s game changing if you understand why you leveled to Wiz c3 and built accordingly.

You could say Linker is more OP than wiz x3 for example cus it increases damage against multiple targets, maximising your parties damage output in fact. The eventual dps increase in many scenarios would eclipse the single player damage increase you get from the wiz x3 50% attribute.

But most wizard’s strongest skills has long cast time, even cc skills got benefits from quick cast. The higher rank you are the more skills you have, cooldown won’t be a problem anymore.
Its true linker kinda op right now but you don’t need more than 1 linker in a team or even a big raid group, the 2nd inferior linker would become useless.

[matija_gaspar]

Honestly yeah I would also prefer they do not make “early class” useless. 1st because all this nice variety of builds will be gone, if only 1-2 high rank classes will be relevant (everything else will be utility/filler). 2nd because this means early game will also lack of variety and fun. You will have to pick classes and skills that scales the best, but that usually means they are pretty bad and not much fun early on.
In RO is kind of similar, early level skills become completely obsolete. (more so with 3rd class) but its ok there, because you only choose 1st and 2nd class and than is a linear path of taking the next class. But in TOS you get to choose 6 times (eventually 10/12?) so this could really make some nice variety of builds (which I guess is hard to balance) but if you make the variety of classes a selling point, and than make the class mechanics so only few builds are not useless makes me feel a bit cheated =.=

[Satoru]

Then you agree that “Wiz 3 beign better than Pyro/Cryo” is subjective.

You need to pick many DPS classes after Rank 3 to not have a long down time from cooldowns, they need cast bars to benefit from Sure Spell and Quick Cast without attribute and they need to be hittable with minimal CC/setup possible.

I give you the word, in the above mentioned case, go Wiz 3 with all you’ve got.

But the OP is wrong saying that everyone will take the same classes and Wiz 3 would be always better than Pyro/Cryo.

[isaacvithurston]

@lyhonlam69 @rofldat @Dastev @Satoru @dmhamilt @wild2west @vezrejai @cosx774 @Elicoor @fabiohenm

Alright guys it’s not done but there is too much talk going on to save this.

An analysis of Tee of Savior class balance and Scaling by The Ellimist

Basically I was both wrong and right. This is damage based on what a somewhat poorly geared level 555 character could look like (minimum damage for physical is used, keep that in mind).

Pyromancer doesn’t scale horribly, infact they out damage Elementalist handily. Archer is possibly the most underrated class ever and Cryo is about as useless as I thought.

This is an unfinished first draft so there may be errors and some stuff isn’t finished like calculations for AoE potential damage.

MAIN Conclusion: Stats and weapon damage should vastly outperform skill’s base damage making almost anything somewhat usable.

It’s really funny the conclusions we come up with in regards to only playing to level 200. I mean look at those archer numbers (mostly single target but still).

EDIT: It would be super cool if anyone wants to make a copy of this and help fill in some blanks or correct any mistakes.

EDIT2: Skills with multiple hits are the main winner in this game in terms of scaling >.<

[victor_sant]

i don’t belive this lvl 555 is a very accurate speculation. The database shows some higher level items (although their required level is lower, their item level is quite high)

Equipment - Item Database - Tree of Savior Fan Base

Anyway, if the game progress like this, it will be a hell to balance and in the end it will be OHK everywhere on pvp situations. And makes the progression kinda bizarre.
Early your status have much impact, as you grow stronger the skill atk have more impact than the stats, then at far higher level the skills have less impact and the stats agai have more impact.

[isaacvithurston]

I think this is where the analysis would need more data since hp at 555 would be between 34k and 98k (min-max con). I would assume that by level 555 gear would have alot more additional +hp/sp etc stats. Damage would also be lower in PvP once upgrades come into play since you have 2 pieces of armor to upgrade defense, 3 for mdef and only 1 weapon usually.

The reason we don’t look at anything but white or blue items is because anything higher is created with specific stat variance (such as shield with low defense but it gives spr etc).

Actual PvP pretty much already supports this data though. You can see alot of pure str people getting 1 shot all day and pure Con players who don’t die but don’t do much damage either.

[victor_sant]

Man i really hope all this is wrong. If this is right, this will be a game i will not want to play. I’m really disappointed with the game so far and this data doesn’t help to change that…