Tree of Savior Forum

The way classes are designed to fall off every 3 circles

General Discussion
#21

[quote=“robkyuur, post:17, topic:104437, full:true”]
Lv15 Reflect Shield will block over 10000 points of damage over a full party with high SPR. Hardly useless!
[/quote]Unless they give Wiz more classes with SPR scaling, I would spend my stats and skill points on more impactful skills. :confused:

Like bigger duration for Sleep and Sure Spell, or higher level on Energy Bolt so I can cast the lower level version faster (which is the most important, imo).

[quote=“isaacvithurston, post:19, topic:104437”]
I also highly doubt im going to use those skills as cd filler when they start doing less damage than my auto attack lol
[/quote]You can start learning how damage is calculated in this game, because no skill will ever do less damage than your basic attacks, let alone do 1 damage.

Just type “damage formula” on search function, if it is not too much.

Or you could also get to those “later parts of the game” before complaining of things you come up with your mind.

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#22

This design have more effect on attack skills, basically early attack skills get outclasses fast by higher rank attack skill. Basically this decision force people to go on the classes with buffs (since those don’t get replaced easily).

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#23

Less was an exaggeration which is why I edited that like 10m ago and you somehow still replied to the old text.

Regardless it seems you haven’t looked at the damage formula yourself. Lets do some math.

Pyro3 - Fireball: 324
Elementalist3 - Freezing Sphere: 943
Rank9 - Based on current rank6 scaling: 2334

(matk+skillmatk)-mdef + mamp

Taking the lowest possible scaling (white with no mods) of items based on current values a level 500 target/player. Leaving out mamp since it’s a random value added anyways.
Mdef: 800
Matk: 1650

Autoattack: (1650+0)-800 = 850
Autoattack W3 buffed: = 1275
Fireball: (1650+324)-800 = 1174
Freezing Sphere: (1650+943)-800 = 1793
Rank9 Skill: (1650+2334)-800 = 3184

Hmm looks like the only way I was actually exaggerating is when the wizard buff is on cd. So should I still take pyro and have a bunch of skills barly better than my autoattack when I can just buff my R6/R9 skills to 2600/4500+. That buff alone will add more damage to your R9 skills than even bothering to cast pyro skills.

This is just wizard too where it has the most obvious lategame advantage over other possible classes. It’s a bit harder to judge the utility of other classes when it’s not as simple as “+50% dmg on everything by taking this class”.

You also get 1 more free circle by going wizard 3 compared to pyro/cryo3 and im not even going to explain how bad the damage of pyro/cyro become if your only circle2 (the math is there if you want to do it ;p)

1 Like
#24

[quote=“isaacvithurston, post:23, topic:104437”]
Less was an exaggeration which is why I edited that like 10m ago and you somehow still replied to the old text.
[/quote]Because the forum is under heavy traffic giving error when your try to post for several minutes.

As for that fail comparison, you completely disregard cooldowns, number of times the skill hits, number of skill charges (overheat) and skill Enhance Atributtes (which will make any skill do more damage than your basic attacks, even with Quick Cast matk bonus, which is up only 60% of the time).

I am the one who will not explain this any further, because the “facts” you are based off are shallow.

#25

Right now the game has 2 major types of gameplay: Autoattack and skillattack.

As a skillattack player (cata 1) i can say that right now the autoattackers have the upper hand in almost any aspect on the game. I see ppl doing 1k dmg - 2k crit when im doing 600 dmg - 1400 crit with all my buffs up. When i go grinding i need to wait for 1 sec animation and some auto attacker already destroyed my mob in half a sec. This kind of things show how important utility and attributes on early ranks are, and how skills, not just cause dmg, but cause animation, cooldown or type of dmg lose against not focusing on dmg/skills. I still don’t know if skills will be bettwr than AA on rank7+ but right now ifnyou focus on them you’ll lose on exp/min, boss killing, PvP and farming.

#26

I specifically used single hit skills for that reason. Hell you want a better example look at druids canivory which by rank9 will be around 52 hits at 2640 base damage for about 181k damage. Doesn’t matter how many charges Fireball has when it’s doing around 1k. Ofc attributes mean that auto attack will probably always be worse but at the same time like you said, skills cost sp, have an animation or cast time and a cooldown.

I still see 0 reason anyone would take pyro over wizard though. It just seems like you proved that a pyro skill can out damage an autoattack since I forgot to add attribute damage in.

#27

Fireball
http://www.tosbase.com/database/skills/20101/
Attack: 324
Attribute Damage: 0%
Number of Hits: 15

u wat m8

#28

Yeah, OK… you gud at ToS.

The only worthless skill Pyro has is Flare, but everyone knows that since August.

[quote=“isaacvithurston, post:26, topic:104437”]
canivory which by rank9 will be around 52 hits at 2640 base damage for about 181k damage.
[/quote]- Damage divided by the number of enemies inside the AoE, one hit for each body.

  • It is from Cleric tree, shouldn’t compare with Wizard since they are from 2 different worlds. Cleric doesn’t have many damaging skills, the only ranged skill is Effigy, which is also the only targeted one and with low CD! Every thing else being centered on the player and/or is tile based, with no CC to help them. Obviously it is good, but Clerics have their own balance.
#29

Yeah I used the wrong skill but overall if you look at the skills of all the first classes they have similar damage. The irony of saying Cleric has no dps ability though. As soon as you pass 300 int clerics cure/heal out scales pyro ability since those skills actually scale with a stat for some reason. Krivis ziabos also scales with int.

Anyways you can strawman all you want but it doesn’t change the fact that early classes scale for crap all. At elementalist 2 im already finding all my earlier skills pretty much a waste of sp.

Either way im not casting fireball for 17k (better than 1k I guess) when I have a 181k nuke. I use druid as an example because it’s the only one which I can confirm it’s damage numbers at rank9. I also assume rank10 will have even higher numbers unless they use rank10 as a wildcard (only able to pick rank1-9).

@rofldat used wrong skill as an example but even with the corrected damage fireball is still terrible compared to higher rank skills and fireball is probably one of the highest damage skills you can find in ranks1-4.

1 Like
#30

Do you really need weak filler skills while quick cast can boost 50% dmg of your strongest skills with half cast time and no interrupted ? example: i bet Frost Cloud + Quick cast can deal much better dmg than Frost Cloud + (1-2 random pyro skill). Same with cryo, i don’t think its worth to cast 2s+ ice bolt for 3s freezing.
Ele alone has 6 attack skills and many with long durations, some has low cd like freezing sphere, frost cloud, some has charges like magic missiles, freezing sphere,etc… I’m only ele 1 now but i only have to wait ~10-15s at most for my skills to cd
I wonder if there are any monster gems can increase lv of quick cast (+1s duration and -10% cast time per lv), it’ll be even more deadly

1 Like
#31

To post another perspective:
The base damage of from skills eventually becomes paltry compared to total damage right?
That incentivizes players to get as many different skills as possible.
The only skills really worth leveling will be ones that have some utility to level, like Ice Wall’s greater number of walls or Electrocute’s number of targets. Fireball is a fairly decent example of a good skill to level, as it gains 100% of its base damage each level by gaining an extra hit.
1 point in a lot of skills will make your character more versatile, and thus stronger.

Also, most damage skills also have that 1%/attribute ability that will help them keep up; as new circle skills won’t have that double base damage.

Cryo 1 psych 1 will probably get plenty of play, as the icewall-pressure combo is silly amounts of damage that probably stays good later on, and psych has three really useful utility skills.
Heck, most mage classes are pretty heavy on utility. I’d talk more about swordman’s terrible options, most of their skills are ‘hit guy with bonus damage’ or ‘gain flat stat bonuses’

#32

[quote=“isaacvithurston, post:29, topic:104437”]
The irony of saying Cleric has no dps ability though
[/quote]I said they have few skills, not that they are weak. You really don’t know how to read.

[quote=“lyhonlam69, post:30, topic:104437”]
example: i bet Frost Cloud + Quick cast can deal much better dmg than Frost Cloud + (1-2 random pyro skill).
[/quote]Every skill uses 100% of your matk in calculation, plus up to 100% bonus damage after calculation from Enhance attributes.
You want to compare a 50% matk buff against 1-2 skills that uses 100% of matk plus 100% enhance attribute each?

Do you even math?

You guys can build your character they way you want. If you think Elementalist has plenty skills to not suffer from CD, good for you, go Wizard 3 - Ele 3.
But saying Quick Cast is better than having 4~6 different skills is subjective, because you don’t know what other classes each person will take for their builds.
But straight up comparing Wiz 3 - Pyro - Ele, Pyro will give more DPS than Quick Cast.

#33

Yah im doing an indept analysis of skills and scaling at the moment but this looks about right. I plan to post it maybe in a new thread when done but it will probably take a few hours. I actually didn’t think about including the numbers for level 1 skills until I saw your post but it actually makes alot of sense.

@Satoru
Pretty sure adding 50% dmg to meteor alone would cause more damage than the entire pyro line of skills combined but ill see when im done writing this comparison with actual numbers. Im still on swordsman classes atm lol

Honestly im not interested in opinion so in the end what I post may contradict everything i’ve said (sofar just in swordsman alone the damage difference from Rank 1-3 to Rank 3-6 at level 555 isn’t nearly as big as predicted)

#34

TLDR add scale to every circle of every class so classes without buff skills will never become worthless

1 Like
#35

Numbers don’t lie, just take a look at those awesome numbers before and after quick cast (my matk is 359):
Magic missile (+25% attribute) and Hail (14% attribute):



#36

Im doing my analysis based on stats of a level 555 character with basic gear for that level though in order to see how well skills actually scale at each class/rank.

Btw maybe some of you can help. I need to know the number of hits for skills that don’t show the number in the skill planner. Sofar Stab, Rush, Dust Devil, Hexen Dropper, Cyclone for swordman. Almost done with swordsman.

Again. I’ll post the paper when it’s readable. I was doing calculations for every skill but for speed purposes im doing the highest damage skills for now and next an analysis of utility (subjective somewhat).

#37

you can’t really ask mmorpg games to differentiate classes that much. It’s already blatantly clear TOS is trying to differentiate classes, and while there will be few specific ways to build the best battle classes, that’s not what all TOS will be about similar to how Ragnarok had useful classes despite some being weaker in battle

1 Like
#38

How good wiz3 is really depends on how important spike damage is later on. Quick cast might be the most powerful steroid in the game, if you have enough skills to cast in 8 seconds.
A wiz3 linker 2 paired with another wizard that actually has skills would be pretty nasty.

Say, I’ve heard tell that the Enhance attribute only effects the skills actual damage, as in (int+weapon+skill*enhance)
Can anyone test that?

#39

It’s not just a wiz problem. Archers that are not running archer C3 are going to lose 25% crit buff just because they want to play quarrel shooter or ranger. IMC should really take a look at this right now or the game will be terrible with many useless classes that are “noob traps” that everyone will regret so much later on. And this game progression in levels is very slow so if you mess up at circle 2, dude… you’re ruined for the next 1000 hours of gameplay. We have 2 solutions -> make early skills scale with base level or rank or remove these super buffs from earlier circles classes. This is a super serious issue right now and the community really needs to make IMC notice their mistake.

2 Likes
#40

According your calculation, then freezing sphere would do around 2600~2700 damage, when buffed by the wizard circle 3 buff, but isn’t that roughly the same damage as casting a fireball and then a freezing sphere on an enemy?
1793 + 1174 = 2971.