Tree of Savior Forum

Team Dex Vs Team Str ( Trash talking, discussion, roasting each other, math magician war ) Aka Debate STR Vs DEX

on a second note, it seems that you are talking about the p.atk given by status, not the p.atk total that gives damage it is correct?
if it is like that everything i have said is still right, even if we take out DOV case, that boost atk.
i simple have wrote that multi hit abilities have a better grown with p.atk that comes be it with stats or not because they have a fair low base damage and with that the atk given by status would still given a very good amount of damage.
and in the second case with high base skills damage does more with dex because it will be in fact having low importance on the damage given by stat.
there is no problem in that nor in what i have wrote.
so by the end of it, is the base damage skill that matter, i never said otherwise, nor i will, be it at multihit-one hit, but in the complex scenery of a entire classes, there is also many values to take in consideration be it skills that they have-debuffs and buffs-skill rotation and so on but the true would still stand like i have wrote before, skills with high base damage will grow more from dex because the critical rate and skill with low damage will grow more with str, at least in the present game is like that.

i know i have answered this since i was explaining this to you!, or do you think i would give you wrong information? of course not !, so i gladly we could agree on that, but i must say that if you did not notice i was explaining this for you i believe that you are the one who have been playing in the internet too much today.
now about the table there is not need to be salty over it, even saying that what i have been saying is theory because is not .again i never said that dex doppel do not have any viability that it just have less damage at the current stage of the game that is rank 8 , iā€™m not the one making assumptions or theories about rank 9-10 or what the future of the game will bring , iā€™m just talking about base damage of skills from rank8-doppel and the dps skill from each skill and the spreadsheet made by @Lyralei is pretty good on that:

so sorry to say iā€™m not talking about theory here , i have not played every and each class in game>> inquisitor for example but system of the game does not change only the toolkit to work with and many have come here to post facts be it with their tables or movies , so there is no need to try offend me on it since i was not the one using it to offend anyone, nor iā€™m asking for everyone to believe in me nor iā€™m making assumptions about rank9 or 10; so just because i have not post my own tables in the topic with many proofs from others , iā€™m doing theory? please, at least be a little less offensive.since both of us know that the person who have started this pun about theory have said it in a way to degrade the other person and their findings and i believe the one was akisera right?

edit:
if you take the time, to click on my name and read many of my posts about damage-maths and so on you will see a fair difference in my approach from months ago to today because the game is changing and i accept that because i have done the math and i have approach it with results in game as well and have wrote about it in the forum before in other topics where people was asking for help and discussion but i will give a tl:dr right now for you like i have said in my first post in this discussion today, the era of dex for damage is coming and is already here for builds like fencers, or inquisitors for example that have toolkit to work with it , but in the case i have wrote before and that seems to be the main problem of discussion is not yet for doppel, only not yet, but the future will come and without doubt this may change for the side you are waiting for or not.

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This has to be one of the greatest swordie threads. Itā€™s just great for the soul.

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sorry if you got offender from what i mean by that, it was just a pun intended from someone iā€™ve been missing here on the thread. kek, (since i know you got proof already)

i believe you also understand that different scenario bring different results. which is where i am more interested in making this thread more informative. i might start writing some stuffs with different aspects later, which i will be needing lots of favors, calculations and testing from everyone else.

for example, if someone brags that heā€™s got his team/guild backing him up, why go STR:CON instead of full STR?

anyway, i think iā€™d be focusing on some stuffs from monster / world bosses that some player disregard. and might shed a better view on both STR / DEX viability, pros and cons.

Raw and Percentage Damage Changes:

The percentage change indicates how much of an increase (or decrease) you will get out of 1% critical chance, i.e: going from 45% -> 46% CC is a 0.1% DPS increase for Dethrone and a 0.17% DPS decrease for Cyclone.

To be clear, this is in the context of gaining critical rate from DEX only. We assume that youā€™ve eked out as much critical rate as you can from gear without sacrificing too much. Works out to be something like 6 stat point investment per 1% Critical Chance.

One important aspect to the numbers is the lack of comparison regarding the changes to DPS/damage done with higher tier gear, especially since Transcendence is now available.

Stage 3 > +60% atk
Stage 4 > +100% atk
Stage 5 > +150% atk

+10 Superior Twin Blade: 415-655
+15 Superior Twin Blade: 505-745
+10 Superior Twin Blade (Stage 3): 664-1048
+15 Superior Twin Blade (Stage 3): 808-1192
+10 Superior Twin Blade (Stage 4): 830-1310
+15 Superior Twin Blade (Stage 4): 1010-1490

Please note that Transcendence also affects the patk provided by a Squireā€™s weapon buff.

With a +15 Superior Twin Blade (Stage 4). 100% Critical Chance on the first row, 45% Critical Chance on the last.

The comparison is done with lvl 15 DoV correct assuming 330 lvl cap, correct?

Looking at those numbers from before:

  • Str buildā€™s damage average is higher than Dexā€™s by 16.19%~
  • With +15 STB (Stage 4), that amount drops to 4.64%~

So, by stage 5 or 6 Transcendence (stage 6 being +210% I believe), Dex will eventually surpass Str for cycloneā€™s damage average/DPS. And this is comparison being done on a white level 220 weapon, that attack threshold will be reach more quickly with a lolopather or higher tier gear (new 2h swords from R8 updates for example).

This is with DoV15.

Yes, the spreadsheet is using the 330 cap as a basis.

Edit: Fixed to include Highlander Critical Attack attribute.

i donā€™t think ppl will ever get to use DOV 15
with zornhau, redel and zucken at lvl 6 we can get DOV lvl 10.
and even with lvl 10, we will need our def or we will just die lol

i think most of the time we wonā€™t even use DOV o.O

Ah, ok. May I know which gears you are using for the above comparison? This takes into account the 347~ patk a lvl 330 swordsman will have with 0 points invested into Str as well, correct?

Whatever you can get your hands on to get cRate on them (reasonably). Assume that you can hit 353 cRate via gear (Lvl7/8 Green Gems, Ellaganos Cards (5)). The full list is somewhere above, but uses a Magi-Two Hand Sword and Red Veris Glove. Lets assume you covered the 53 cRate loss from not using those with better level gems.

Did not include phyAtk from Sissel Bracelets nor STR from Max Petamion to not complicate things, but I can fix that easily.

And yes, table auto-calculates the characterā€™s native phyAtk beforehand. Character actually has 86 STR because you hit cap with 433 DEX (and the gear I used as reference).

2x Sissel - 74
Max Petamion - 14
Red Veris Gloves - 23
3x lvl 7 Green Gems - 132
lvl 330 with no dex - 6
3x hats with 14 crit rate - 42
5x lvl 10 Ellaganos Card

That brings the sum to 341.

lvl 330 cap assuming (crit rate - crit res) * (42/330) as the crit rate formula, means that you would cap out at 451 dex total, which is 339 invested, leaving 29 points free for con or str (73).

Of course, it also depends on your definition of reasonably obtainable gear with crit rate. I am using 39 bonus points for the comparison btw, 37 from quests/statues and 1 point each for str and dex from the hidden quests.

Based on your numbers it looks like Magi Swordā€™s 30 crit rate was included. Was that excluded from the equation from your latest comparison?

Should Monstrous Scrolls be added to the equation as well? (30% + 10 flat dex). If it is, you would only need to hit 389 dex after gear-before monstrous, which is 325 dex before gear, or 250 invested, leaving 118 points free.

More importantly, is the spreadsheet available for download or will it be kept private?

Yeah it was, hats were +10 though so if you ditched the Magi Two-Handed Sword and substituted in Level 8 Greens (and +14 Hats), you should reach the previous values.

I only used 34 bonus points (whatever I calculated my character had) and did not include the Crystal Mine Quest nor the Drake Horn Quest.

Sure we could include Monstrance, but then we might as well include Quicken because that will be scrollable by Enchanters too point at which you might as well assume that you need those two buffs for targets with critical resistance. Would expect the new zone monsters to have some so it will be prudent to overcap via skills.

You could probably even include Marksmanā€™s cResist debuff if you wantedā€¦but at that point, I wouldā€™ve just went full STR, grabbed a Linker with full DEX and called it a day.

I think lvl 8 greens is kind of unrealistic at this point (lvl 7>8 is about 10 times the required exp for 6>7 iirc).

Except that Quicken Scroll will not include the crit rate attribute.

Probably. Iā€™ve seen a guy with one or two?

I stand corrected with the Quicken Scroll, but I think you might want to keep the Monstrance Scroll specifically for overcapping (by 129.9 cRate for a 433 DEX build) on resistant targets unless of course you plan to run with a Chronomancer?

You kinda also might want to ditch the Red Veris Gloves for that Slash gloves, so actual DEX investment might probably lean closer to your expected values.

Its about 20s duration per monstrous scroll, which is reasonable enough for bossing at 900s per scroll (rank5 pardoner with priest1 can make them.)

For dealing with crit resists, its better to get a high SPR krivis (usually full support priests with krivis1, and they can provide Monstrous as well).

I might do a table with your proposed changes later if I donā€™t get too lazy. Probably when I do a table for Fencers as well.

not part of the topic but iā€™d like to ask how offhand damage affects the dmg formulaā€¦? or is it voided and and only main hand damage is taken for the computation? ā€¦ im just wondering if transcending my dagger would boost hexen dropperā€™s damage or not

Back on track,

since my internet doesnā€™t allow me to play with this bad connection. i did some random stuffs for future - proof wether you go STR or DEX. both with pros and cons.

Part 1: Monsters (all aspects that can affect a character)

iā€™ve pick Mirtis World Boss as an example

*Monster Damage = since itā€™s applied damage, neither STR or DEX have points on this.

*Monster Accuracy = STR got nothing to do at this, while DEX can reduce that value via EVA = DEX + 1pt

*Monster Evasion = STR got nothing to do with it, while DEX have advantage given increased Hit Rate = DEX + 1pt

*Monster Defense = STR given increasing Patk has point on this, Dex doesnā€™t have any relation to deal with DEF = STR + 1pt

*Monster Crit Rate = STR and DEX ainā€™t related with this = no points for both

*Crit Resistance = STR got nothing to do with this, DEX however deals with this via increased CRIT RATE = DEX + 1pt

On the above assessment, Given STR = 1pt, DEX = 3pts, DEX has the upperhand, however; this one is not included in the list, so iā€™ll put it myself to be fair.

*Monster Block rate = STR greatly penetrate this, while DEX simply canā€™t do anything = STR + 1pt

Assesment overall: STR = 2pts, DEX = 3pts

If there are other elements that are not here please feel free to contribute.

Do not know Hexen Dropperā€™s damage formula unfortunately. If you can find it, let me know and I can make a table for it.

For skills that do not explicitly mention it, off-hand physical attack is not used.