first i would like to say, that is 3 or 4 time that you reply him with this math, i’m not to take side but again you come here, and try to be COOL because this is what you have been doing since the MATH you are so proud of and that is using for the basis of your argument is WRONG and you keep posting them so if you are talking about evasion-dragon-fencer-rank9-rank10 and so on i could agree with you, but no, you are talking about DOPPEL, and the math you have done is not right, so stop trying to mislead people on the forum with wrong calculation at least try to use a correct one and do not try to say that you are not talking about doppel because you have been arguing with @akisera since last week i believe, using this same math as well and he keep talking about DOPPEL and DOPPEL alone but it seems that you can not understand that.
sorry if i’m being so aggressive but again, is 3-4 times you come with this wrong ■■■■ and expect people to believe in your claim at first i was waiting for you to correct the mistake yourself but you never did , so i will just say this go check your fonts because besides one, I SAY ONE skill, doppel does not have any more skills with 7k+ base damage, and the one he have is a fake multi hit skill to boost, that players will only use for the debuff and let’s not even start that you are using 100% critical rate for a dex build, that with right debufs i will not even say is wrong, but 0 critical for a str one, something that with the right debufs on mobs is wrong as well.
I’m not saying that STR will give more damage in all cases, but at least with doppel and dov lvl 15, that does not add negative defense and because he is a multihit toolkit you will see that he indeed does because he does not have high base damage in skills so even with transcendent or weapon +15 because the nature of multihit skills he would still do more damage with str+DOV, at least at the present game with rank 7 and in the future of doppel with rank8 as well, once rank9 and 10 comes out if imc keep doing what she is doing, this will of course change, but again we are not oracles to know.
time to grow up dude , and realize that with dragon-fencer the player can still fight against high STR base swords at rank 8 with critical on their rank8 skills and fencer new buff, but for doppel+dov at least even at rank8, str will do fair more damage because like you ever said yourself the player would need a high base damage skill to compete with dex, something that doppel does not have nor it will because it ends at rank8.
Total Physical Attack has been calculated with DoV15 already. Critical Chance (%) formula is for the 330 cap.
Takeaways:
Going for enough DEX on a Doppelsoldner to reach crit cap will require that you invest 327 DEX.
A full STR build can comfortably hit 45% Critical Chance unassisted and 57% Critical Chance with a Chronomancer.
Zwerchhau and Sturtzhau see the least increase in damage as a STR build over a DEX build.
Critical Damage gains a 50% boost in effectiveness if you took a single rank in Highlander. For a STR-based build, translates to an average of 562 DPS (or 1249.5 bonus damage every time you crit).
It is a straight up DPS loss for every skill when shifting from STR to DEX-based.
Zwerchhau and Sturtzhau will see a DPS increase with a DEX build over a STR build when you get a really good weapon, but will probably be marginal at best.
Notes: You might probably want to get the Slashing gloves and make up the 23 Critical Rate from Red Veris elsewhere.
If someone has the t1 modifiers for all the skills, I can include them in the calculations.
you can put many times the same math as you seen fit , because if the first one is already wrong, the second would be as well since you have use the first one as basis and this is why i have write about the first one only and the thing about critic % was only a minor thing of my entire post, 2 sentence only, something that i ever said that there was not even a need to mention as a reason of why str 'would be " better or not in the entire post, and is the thing you choice to take as justify to answer me,shows a lot.
Now about this: there is many things we could have talk about and even if take in context all the situations where face taking could allow for a better window in doing damage, there is not proof that is in fact true for DOPPEL case, since we have something called CD in skills and also debuffs, where a STR character would hit fair harder in his boost window than a dex one (doppel) and once the main damage skills are in CD the str one could run where the dex one would need to switch back to low damage skills because the main ones are in CD and there is no proof that the damage given by the low level skills only be able to close the gap in damage against the boost window of a str character; even more when you see the spreadsheet that the guy have made above where we have the damage being 5-30%(30% one being the ones with skill with 15-20sec cd) large with str builds, something that once you add cleave debuff and the debuff from doppel would grow even more, and in this situation dex builds would make those low ranks skils hit so low, that there is not even a need to keep track of it, like i said we have no proof and this means you as well so there is no need to point out if in fact face taking would give more damage AGAIN>> in doppel case, if we are talking about fencer face-taking would indeed boost the damage because of 0 sec compose+100% uptime armor break but not for doppel so if you do please elaborate on the math in which skills you would be using to close the damage gap, because like i said nor “i” nor you have proofs if this is in fact true for doppel but now once we take the situation for example in wb’s where we will have party, there is many ways that a str doppel would be able to do also sustained damage with his low rank skills as well with the help of a good cleric and by that time both str and dex doppel would have the same “time window to do damage”, if the doppel is a main tank with cleric helping him even more. now about dov, you are wrong, dov also add damage given by str status (point that you invest+bonus) , so where a full str dov would give close to 800+ atk given the new formula of 1.3 damage=1str.
Now i was going to press enter when i saw your edit:
there is no point running around and talk about other builds even more when you direct your answer to me, because i was pretty clear on my topic
i KNOW that is a FACT that once rank 8 comes fencer-murmilio-dragon and so on, can not only fight in damage against a str character with those builds but maybe even doing better, mainly because they have HIGHER BASE DAMAGE SKILLS . but my post is pretty clear that i have answer you about DOPPEL case, like many others have done and you still keep changing the topic to other classes, so please if you are going to answer by showing a video of murmilio-fancer and so on, i would not even take my time to answer, because the truth about one class is not the same as the other and this is where you can not follow nor understand since what i have wrote, and also what @akisera have said, and many others here who defend str in the last replies that seems to be applied to DOPPEl, not dragon not murmilio and not fencer.
so just imagine: when you could finally understand that many players here and mainly me since i’m doing writing this so of course i’m sure is talking about a very special case and class called Doppelsoeldner that will gain more damage with str, even at rank 8 where many of the ones could build dex and compete with str but to bad that this is not the same for doppel so the ones that choice to go dex doppel will be the ones who will re roll once rank8 comes if they do not accept the less damage that the build will provide.
ps: i know that writing a few things in caps seems to be rude but it seems that i need to make clear about some things in the post since it seems that you like to ignore many things when reading and mainly when you try to indulge in you theorycraft, so at least with caps will work to show where some important parts in the text is.
ps2: please for anyone reading this, do not confuse viability with damage, what i have wrote here is mainly about damage, if you choice to follow a dex build doppel,please do so but you will need to accept the reality of it, and the advantages that the build would provide as well, but one of those is not damage and many more may judge you on that, but this does not mean that you will not be able to play a dex doppel.
This person used to be STR doppel now he switched to DEX. I don’t think DEX build is that bad, he hits like a machine mate =]. If this is not enough to prove dex is not garbage im done. FYI he is not Full dex hybrid BOYSSSSSSSS
it’s not about STR or DEX
it’s about Critical Damage + Damage and Critical Chance alone
i give you many question to let you understand:
How much Damage and Critical Damage give a full str build?
How much Critical Chance a hig dex build?
How Critical damage and damage works? I want to tell you.
if you have a Skill with 10000 damage and 1000 Critical damage and 1000 Attack you are going to deals 11000 with the skill and 16500 with a critical (a rare one without critical ratio)
if you have a Skill with 10000 damage and 500 damage and 0 critical damage (but alot of crit ratio) you are gonna to crit about 15750.
There is close no difference and i had 0 (ZERO) critical damage (provided generally by str.
That means only the truth: Critical Ratio is the best stat on physical builds since if you crit more often you do more sustained damage.
If you have a skill with high base damage critting is better than non critting.
If you have a weapon with a decent attack you’ll notice that 80% of your damage comes from the weapon, not from str.
no they are not, because there is no skills with 7000 base damage ,in doppel case only one with fake multi that is not been use for dps and you still need to max it and by doing that would be crippling the dps build of doppel because you would not have enough points to choice one of the two dps skills that have gain a new attribute to increase the number of hits+damage at level 6, so not only you have done wrong by using fake data and try to use in your favor in those calculation you would also mislead players by making them choice a bad skill just to try to proof that you are right but by the end of it if you have use math to proof something with data that does not exist this means that the math done is wrong;simple put if you take data that does not exist to justify something that exists with calculations , this makes the calculations void and wrong in a fair more primordial level than simple doing 2+2=4, because at least in basic elementary math i can accept that you are right but would not change the wrong doing of the calculation i have posted on my post because the data in it is wrong.
of course, since day 1(when the rank8 came out and we have seen the damage on those skills) i have said this, there is not point coming here trying to act cool again, because even at my first reply about it, i have write about that as well, is there please go read.
see is right there, it seems you have not read in my first post , but now i hope you can so there is no need to come here saying this like your entire argument is just so solid that i must have agree with you and by that everything i have wrote is void, because i have agree not with you but with the particular path the game is going and that seems to be the same as you have in those situation so i’m agreeing with the data and gameplay of the damage,something that you can not seem to accept in doppel builds losing damage by going dex.
so now you are trying to say that you are a oracle who knows the future and can affirm that every str doppel will be lying dead! close the thread because Palazzo the oracle can already see the future, and that str doppel and by his chain of arguments any str base character will be lying dead on the floor, now the only thing that swordsman had since day one that was the possibility of taking hard hit without dying , is being taken away in the future because Palazzo the oracle have seen that.
Now on a more serious note >>>> the dying part is very very subjective since we have many players doing fine and you never saw one doing a topic in the forum saying that every str doppel is lying dead on the floor since right now at least we have seen many of them doing fine.
It look like the fight between STR and DEX almost over, but now we have a new war!!! And That is Math War between neryma and Palazzo
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you must point out that the video is weird… because is imposibble that a 2k p.atk can crit harder than a 7-8 p.atk (cyclone criting for 40k… then 56k with the slash buff and the other a measly hit of 30k with and overwhelming difference in p.atk on a leather target) even those skylinear hit for around the same crit dmg, maybe one of those buff from the plague or the sage make him hit harder or he leveled his attributes, still i want to see that twin blade soo badly, i’m leveling 3 green gems level 6 to 7 just for that weapon
in ktos everything is different… dragoon go high str with dex, doppels go hybrid or high dex, fencer are all over dex, and murmillos go dps with high dex, and some con (like 60)…
Naw, i don’t care if it weird but it is the truth unless DEX doppel is buggy in Ktos right now =], also take a notice first video he is grinding alone :). I will enjoy my hybrid Doppel at the end laterrrr
wrong again, is not “when” , doppel ends at rank 3, and is over already you can say what you want, unless IMC decides to buff doppel skills, something that there is no way in hell that you can know unless you work with them, the case is over.
And wrong again there is no skill in @!lyralei table that have show dex taking the upper hand, check the table again the less amount of increase is 5% and 5% without counting debufs from cleave, from the new skills from doppel, from attributes and armor types.
WRONG again: check my post i have talked about it, is just that you choice not to read so i will copy this here again , you are all wrong and even when you decide to write something about me like i have not considerate something is wrong because i have far more than you it seems.
SO i’m the one who must give this words back to you :
ignoring certain points of one’s arguments is proof of consent.
there is no trend about this , again you have choice the wrong class nquisitor, there is no trend, about it even at swordsman case.
I will give the words back at you again because it not me that is blind. you’re blind and it’s useless to discuss with you and i will even edit the topic with this again ignoring certain points of one’s arguments is proof of consent.
because it seems that is YOU who have been ignoring many of the arguments made not only by me but by with many others in this topic.
i will just copy-paste what you have wrote because is easy with some edits :
Again, there’s no use arguing with you. I’ve said everything I could say and you’re still clinging to something that doesn’t work in reality it’s like you don’t even play this game.But sure, If you want to believe in your “DEX DOPPEL Fairytale”, go on.
Because it have been show by many players that you can in fact survive even without def, and again stop talking about wizards cleric and archers, for the love of god the talk is about swordsman and many more people only have said that dex is not worth in doppel case and you still do not get it.
yes, English is not my main language , but i play the game and have helped many in the forums even with my broken English and lets not forget that there is not only “USA” server and here i’m exposing myself for the likes of YOU who is so bad that can contradictory yourself in your own words or you seems to forget about this?
since not reading a argument when we are having a discussion about a topic like this is even worse than ignoring the argument made by the others, is like a child that put his hands on his ears and keep screaming when someone is trying to talk to them, because i have not done any ranting, the one who have is you, there was even some posts where you have use you failed argument about face taking saying that i have not considerate it, and i have already talked about it in the previous reply,showing that is you who is ranting in everything being said when is something that you can not agree with but i’m sorry to say that is not because you have said is true, and before you come ranting again i will say that is not what i have said that it makes true as well , but in this topic we have enough proof about swordsman being show be it with tanking with @akisera video tanking/dps boss with dov+10 or the damage spreadsheet as well.
So now you try to be the smart ass and oracle who knows the future, but also is the one who try to be so up moral in the forum but by the end of it is here answering my post , without even reading them, nicely done.
Now i know why everyone have tried to argument with you and you could never accept it, is BECAUSE YOU NEVER READ ANYTHING.
edit:
Go play the game, people have been using dov 10 for ages be it at ET-farm-mission-wb and so on and still being alive, and dov 15 does not add negative defense is = a dov lvl 10 in defense aspect .
We should Tag someone expert on damage calculations, because i’ve read it from the past. and what you’ve seen on the vid is actually true. Crits do damage even with low P.atk value.
people really forgot how the game works, Lots of things / damage calculations made mostly comes from the FF:
Skill base Damage
Skill Atrribute
Gears / equipments
Stat
of all those, STAT comes last specially on P.atk, why? because that is how the mechanic of this game is. which is reality. (only exception is those who got % modifier from p.atk)
Some players even reached R5 without spending a single stat point. lulz
But yeah, people are delusional, they tend to ignore what was in front of em.
Hmm based on my findings on this thread
STR builds will be the perfect weapon of destruction (doppels)
Survivability is not that much of a problem for this build mainly because swordsmen are made to take hits and please lets not treat everyone is going to be kirito style this is an mmorpg you play with others to get things done especially in wbs there is no chance of any kirito to get a cube wherein party dps is the one being ranked not individual dps, well unless there’s only enough parties to let you take the 5th rank spot lol.
Dex builds will always be the top survival masters as they can dodge attacks because atm they can facetank bosses and only get knocked back by magic attacks damage wise they are a bit off and will lose even more if attributes are taken into account we are talking about % modifiers here (attributes and DoV) the damage gap wouldn’t matter if we are talking about flat scaling but no its % which is why dex builds will not be on par with str builds even if both builds are equally geared damage wise that is.
Conclusion:
If you’ll ask me taking the str path on doppel would be the safest way to not reroll mainly because evasion should not be this effective in wbs or any boss at all including the bosses in missions.
this game is designed for you to move you’re ass when the boss is about to do an attack not sit in a tile and let evasion do the job for you.
this is the most common practice in all mmos and i don’t see it not coming in this game. Evasion builds should only be effective against weak monsters well elites should be included but they should also have better accuracy than the standard ones they shouldn’t be called elites just for a bigger hp pool right?
This the main reason why archers are allowed to attack while moving makes sense lol?
Also if facetanking with evasion would be this effective then what else is the purpose of pain barrier?
So if you want to roll a dex based swordsman go for a fencer even if evasion gets nerfed like how i stated above you won’t regret rolling your dex fencer mainly because this class gets all its sustained damage from critical hits and facetanking is not your only method of surviving if you know how to build a swordsman, fencers by far are the best and most flexible class atm well for me that is.
sorry to say, but p.atk comes first together with skill base damage, the only one who comes later after all of the multipliers is out is critical attack, let’s not confuse the two please.
now about damage there is many factors in the process like you have said and once we remove the p.atk you will lose a fair amount of damage if we take in context the case of multi hit abilities> because normally they have a fair low base damage to start with.
but abilities with a high base damage can still do well be it if they are multi hit or not and this is why most rank8 builds is fine going dex right now, because they have abilities with a fair high base damage and this alone can close the damage gap with critical in classes like dragon-inquisitor who builds p.atk and so on, in fencers case the buff already speak by itself, the damage grow by going dex is fair superior than the one given by str.
you are pretty fair right in all your conclusions but i must say that the end of it the answer is also fair more simple:
doppel lacks the high base damage that dragon2 got with deathrone and lacks the critical buff that fencer got at rank3 and the base damage that inquisitor have as well (6-7k each in 4 spells), so by the end of it the only option for damage is still going str since their main dp skills is zucken-cyclone-rodel-with their base damage at 1361-1857-1154, those skills even received a extra hit count in the new attribute as well, one of the spells from doppel3 have a fake-multihit with fair high base damage, but there is problems:first is the CD, is fair higher than the other options, second is the dps of the skill itself, rodel-zucken with their new attribute at lvl 6 can surpass the damage given by the new rank with half the cd time, even if you go dex because the number of hits so by the end of it 1 point is enough for the slash debuff .
i could explore more on the face tanking aspect, but like i have wrote in my previous topic, there is simple many things to take in consideration to even start, but to begin would be skill rotation, unless they have a 0 skill cd like fencer, by the need to use low ranks with low rank damage as well would already not increase the dps enough to even keep track of it , since we are talking here about small time window of damage and even worse, something that with a good cleric can be easily done even if you do not follow dex.
what??? i think you didn’t even understand what i meant. i do know P.atk comes first on damage calculation, what i meant was ‘STAT’ is given the least importance because they do very little.
and you answered it yourself. hmm, i think too much internet for today?
Besides, if you got the table for damage calculation, you can help out giving fact. rather than your ‘theory build’ (pun intended, line came from TOP SWORDSMAN)
edit 1: my post was actually non-related to Doppel Class, just pointing out that ‘STAT’ is not a priority in this game. deym mechanics
