Tree of Savior Forum

Team Dex Vs Team Str ( Trash talking, discussion, roasting each other, math magician war ) Aka Debate STR Vs DEX

Class and Rank Swordsman
#1108

how high is your crit rate.

Can you explain because if you have werewolf cards and if it works.
That would means its 100% crit. with 1 cards. regardless with 300 crit rate. As long as you proc the rear attack. Or is behind the mob/boss.

It does not make sense for it to work like level 1 sneak hit because. It’s just affect your attack as a back attack. @_@. Also it does not have a sneak hit buff interaction when you have ww card on.

If you are at rear and it does not crit means. You can literally scrap/ sell or pass it to a rouge. .

#1109

Remember it’s (star)% chance to proc the card. That’s why you need 5x lvl 10 Werewolf cards to give an objective opinion about it (50% chance to proc). It will take me a while to get the whole % allowed, cause not so many people do Crystal Mines.
You didn’t read the description of the card correctly. It says clearly:

Werewolf Card: When attacking there’s a [★]% chance of attacks being registered as Rear Attacks.

#1110

“Registered as rear atk” you should try this.
someone with pelt (swash) tank the boss and you hit from behind. (REAR ATK), its different with “SNEAK HIT” buff.

#1111

It doesn’t matter what you are saying is it’s a sneak hit buff as you attack a rear attack it will proc sneak hit at 10% chance per card.

Which what i am trying to say registering as sneak hit IS different O_o.

So equipping werewolf card will proc it regardless. you have sneak hit or not.

Rear Attacks is not sneak hits. O_o… i am extremely skeptical on this. Which is why every one in korea ran ellaganos/glass mole on Non Rogue for a reason.

This is why i asked for your crit rate. If you have higher than 300 crit rate please strip off everything and do a cyclone with it. Or which ever true multi hits skill you have.

Edit in part.

or just get 500 hits of normal attack then count whichever hits are crit out of the 500 hits.

if werewolf proc is 10% your crit hits will always be higher than the one stated. for eg if you have near 150 crit chance at level 280 , you will be

(crit chance - crit resist) * 42 / 280

so assuming you only have low dex (150 crit chance ) that will mean your crit chance is 22.5% which translate to 112/113 hits crit out of 500 on average.

Please do it in set of 5, so you can see the constant value against a level 1 mob is fine.

It will always be more by 4-5% if you have a single werewolf card and is procing sneak hit. Else it’s pretty much to sales it go.

#1112

My understanding about Werewolf card is, that it only register your attack as ‘from behind’ when it procs. Rogues benefit from this since they have additional crit rate when they attack from behind via Sneak Hit. Other classes however, don’t have such ability, so they can still proc the card’s effect, but to no benefit. Even Rogues won’t benefit from this if they don’t have the buff on when it procs. I might be wrong.

NOW IF, the card gives us the Sneak Hit ability when it procs, that’s a whole different story, would be cool, so if you can somehow prove it, please do. One *10 card should suffice to test this.

#1113

Honestly, i’m too lazy to make those tests just to prove that the card works. I mean, why would IMC release a card with no effect at all, but just for 1 class aka Rogue, makes sense? No.
Do i need to prove the card works? No. If you want to use Glass mole or Ellaganos, go for it. I’m just putting it out there for whoever wants to try that out.

#1114

Yes it make perfect sense that certain cards work that way to boost synergy of class.

You don’t need to what you are saying is misleading and misinformation.
What you are doing at now is just “it is working”. Instead of helping out to clarify. I am not joking.
It’s the same case as people used to say only 5 card works stacking instead of 8 after time pass and the truth is reveal on mechanics.

I knew what is the answer already. Enjoy your day.

#1115

What makes no sense is for IMC to make Sneak skill, IF there was already an existing mechanic like that.

Same for me I know the answer already, unless you have proof or tests to backup your claim, it is nothing but misinformation.

#1117

you are in the forum, making a statement without proof would make it nothing but a hoax. it will also taint your credibility as a fellow player.

Sadly, yes it does. as an example, you do know how Ragnarok card system works? some cards are skill-based. i.e increasing damage of certain skill, the same mechanic applies here.[quote=“NotVau, post:1113, topic:321139”]
Do i need to prove the card works?
[/quote]

again, yes you have to. after all the statements you’ve made. unless otherwise, you wanted people to think your a liar.

#1118

Huh, why so defensive? You have the advantage of being able to test it better over us (or at least me, bcs we haven’t got the card update here) with the upgraded (I assume) card you have. If you can prove it work then it’d be awesome, if it doesn’t work then you still provide a good piece of information and saves people from wondering. After all, you can be wrong or having confirmation bias, with the crit rate you already have and that’s ok.

Also

Don’t make me list things that IMC did that make little sense to me, lel.

#1119

can i lel as well… lel

#1120

I did some research with stats reset…the result is just…


This was first video, 2:1 str con build


This is second video, which the stats has been resetted to 1:3 str dex

Surprising results that the first video with 2:1 str con build has 40k more dmg at the end compare to the second video with 1:3 str dex, both videos uses the same eqp, same town buffs, same weapon maintenance buffs, same lv 2 transcendence +13 weap, same 7x ellaganos card, same DoV buffs, same lvl 90 Cyclone atributes. I am doing it expecting the 1:3 str dex will do better…

But unfortunately no…I was disappointed my old build does more DPS…Anyway, the purpose of this is to show that crit attack and white dmg gained from STR able to outperform criticals to a certain extend, I was expecting 1 cyclone to end the boss, but no…somehow the total dmg got beaten by my old STR build that gets crit rate purely from eqp only.

1 Like
#1121

nice info

but arent high Dex prefer different equipment than Str’s set?

still, nice info bro~

that high Dex is preparation for Dop3, current Dop2 still favor Str

#1122

Str preference type equipment are different here.

It’s obvious that R7 it is favoring strength because the crit gap can be filled easily via equipment. you can attain easily 40% crit rate here with just equipments.

Do you know that crit % = (crit rate - crit resist ) *42/ your level?

Manticen only have 75 crit resist.

You still obviously don’t get why dex is on favor on R8.

Because there are no more crit gears after this.
It make’s all your crit rate invested turn worthless. Even pure investment of damage will lose out to a “invested crit gear with crit” set.

Simple as that. Assuming you are still using this gear with additional all on STR your crit rate IS CAPPED.

and it’s capped at 286 if are popping 8 ellaganos.

(286 - 130)* 42 / 330 . —> lesser than 19%
This is your future crit rate. What happen to all your future 1-1.5k crit damage. its worthless.
Not even quicken + monstrance can save it.

In party setup you can attain 100% crit with 330 dex.
So all your investment goes into weaponary.

Here comes the clue. you invest STR but have 0 crit eventually it’s all white numbers. So crit damage is totally offset.
You only have this bonus scaling to deeds. Deeds 150% aka 2.5 .
Critical is almost nonexistence for you by r9.

Where as dex builds goes damage of DEEDS add up on top with CRIT 50% initial + crit damage. Tell me now which is obviously higher?

Damage formula = your physical damage + skill damage + elemental damage

Crit formula in damage = (your physical damage + skill damage) * 1,5 + critical damage + elemental damage.

Is this higher? Way higher.

This isn’t theory craft. This is currently what’s gonna happen to end game R8. Take it or leave it. It up to you. This applies to dopple. Fencer have EPEE + viener which make you not taking dex extremely derp.

Hoplites dragoon can invest 150 less dex due to finestra stat capture bonus.

1 Like
#1123

Good vid to provide comparison on players who are confused which path to go, however, as @kinyau87 said. the gears DEX and STR used ain’t the same. for instance,

  1. you were using 7 Ellaganos card which isn’t really needed hence you went 1:3 STR:DEX, that is just a total waste. if you place 7x Glass mole cards. the result may vary.

  2. The damage comparison between STR and DEX in short spam of time will result in favor of STR and that will always be the result, but as we always say, the longer the fight gets, the less and less damage you’ll deal in compare to DEX builds due to other factor affecting damage calculations.

  3. equipment wise, DEX builds ain’t using much of Sissel, instead they use either Phada or Glad Band to boost their attack more, you see, DEX build lacks damage output, but they got high crit-rate to compensate on that. again, it is easier to build up P.atk from different sources like weapon, gems, Transcend, anvil upgrades and hair accessories in comparison to Crit rates.

if you could atleast provide more vids that would be wonderful, contributing such valuable information/videos are important.

1 Like
#1124

Answering the ultimate key point now why that we say R8 is dex investment era.

@akisera Thanks for the video. This one is extremely helpful to a extend.

There is no crit gear except for main hand. I don’t consider solmiki or ET easily accessible item.
Not all main hand weapon have + 70 dex or more crit rate.

Most 2h weapons only have 3 slots for gem and it’s heavily restricted. There is no sign of Crit accessories that enables you to go leeroy with strength. As far as i can see only ET leather set provides you a flat 25 + 42 crit rate.

Thus this is the conclusion you bid good bye to your crit damage modifier. which is 1.5x or simply 50% more in general. basically Additional 5 stack of deeds in average. Might be more as it factors in skill damage.

The higher the skill damage the worse it gets.

Optimal crit rate is to be count as 760 to achieve a 80% on 330 against 150 crit resist mobs. And you will crit 100% after monstrance and quicken.

Don’t get me wrong i was in STR camp during pre 6 because i see how significant STR was early. Dex made a came back with transcend system and lack of crit rate gear. Which is why i stay netural in stats investment now.

All of this is only happening DURING R8 i must point out. Eventually i hope everyone gets the clue and understand whats happening to your future path.

#1125

I think this is kind of the main takeaway for the Swordsman class. Strength is incredibly valuable leading up to rank 6, since enemies have lower crit res and crit rate is easier to build up until this point. Speaking from experience, my 3:1 str:dex HL3 can outburst any and everything leading up to and including the level 115 dungeon.
However, beyond rank 6 it’s necessary to start building for dex due to the lack of crit rate modifiers and the ridiculous amounts of base damage r7+ skills are getting.
What this means to me is that we need to build high str for rank 1-5/6, then let the class bonuses provide you with the extra strength as you progress from 6-8. Rank 9 and beyond is unknown territory, but hopefully there will be more ways to gain more dex/crit rate through equipment and we can reach equilibrium again, assuming IMC has that kind of competence.

#1126

i like how everyone doubting IMC now…

huehuehue

behold, high CON is rank9/rank10 proof~
coz damn 50k ~100k base dmg skill in rank9/rank10
cant survive sh1t if ya dont have atleast 300k hp!

i think IMC idea for swordman is high CON coz rank skill gonna have insane base damage anyway…
some skill have flat Cri Rate like Sw3 DoubleSlash etc

hrmm…

#1127

what to do hue bro IMC is lulz.

High con is something that will not be forgotten but it turn diminishing when you have timers on boss.

I forsee that happening… and they implement a real DPS check in dungeons/ET stages.

#1128

yup, you got my point there. IMC wanted stat diversy but their weapon enchant system and item system is making us not to. Which we have to pay up for the amount of stats lacking from equipment using stats .