Tree of Savior Forum

Swordsman is a joke DPS at high levels, but why? (this post was made in April, before R8)

Class and Rank Swordsman
#573

Well, then the question is : What value is X/how much X DPS is considered “ok, you are allowed to call yourself a DPS class” and who gives that person the right to decide that a class can only be called a DPS class with, for example, 10k damage/sec but not at 9500 damage/sec?

Same with “healer class”… how much heal/second is needed to be considered a “healer”? Even more complicated will be “support”, because how do you value support quality of a build if there is so many combinations to choose from, all with different advantages and disadvantages.

In the end all this “this is not a real dps/support/heal/whatever class” is all subjective elitist bullsh*t talk and the only thing that really matters is whether your group reaches its goal or not and if you can contribute something to achieve that goal and, most importantly, if you have fun while doing it.

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#574

@Chakri_Griffindor 's focus is efficiency, which is the most reliable quality in extreme situations like ET.

I don’t think he or me denied that there are other possible combinations. Though the game is not favorable to lots of combinations yet, but I believe it will be.

That is, the fun part is still broken to the point that you can only reach your goal by a little amount of possible ways. Not having a magic DPS/healer in the party is a notorious example. You end up wasting more than you gain, and that is not fun.

And I don’t think it’s elitism talk as we’re not imposing anything. At least not me.

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#575

The guy is completing ET floor 5, and given that some elememe told me that you need highly optimized INT build for that, I would say he is efficient sword DPS.

Not the best, but efficient. So I think it’s wrong to mock him

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#576

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

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#577

Efficiency, in my case, is not only damage numbers, but how much resources/sec you have to use to maintain the damage. Resources can be heal tiles, SP, buffs, debuffs, etc.

Correct me if I am wrong, but swordsman tend to use more resources in order to deal his damage when compared to DPS oriented classes like wizards and archers. In theory, it seems that wizards and archers consume more, but as far as my experience go, it is not the case.

Of course, you can build your party in order to make the DPS swordsman alive while he deals his damage then we might have an efficient combination. But then you will have to answer the question why this strategy is not that valued. Maybe because it’s not that efficient then.

And please, I’m mocking no one.

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#578

Not sure about other cases, but in this specific case, he used pretty much the same amount of investment as anyone else: level 70 attributes, BIS weapon and accessories

His DPS will not be comparable with wizard, but since mobs in ET come in waves, it’s not necessary, as long as you can burst down a wave before the next come it should be ok.

It’s basically the same for every party in ET, you need to build your team around your main DPS. The swordman strategy is not valued because wiz 3 ele 3 is much easier to play with: they are ranged and their AoE is huge. People usually just go for the easy path and blind themselves other paths.

Yes it might not be the best combination to build around swordman DPS, but by no means it is a weak combination. You don’t see classes like scout or pyro in ET because they are weak. But you do see doppel

Not you, the other guy.

#579

Actually it is because there are more unskilled and casual players than skilled and hardcore ones. And I’m not talking about you or any other long time player, I’m talking about my friends. The easier path becomes rather convenient or pretty much necessary.

I’m sorry then, I misjudged it.

#580

I’m actually curious how many ET groups actually and genuinely tried to work with good, skilled, geared and pure DPS-built Swordis, compared to the amount of ET groups who either banned the swordi from their group after a single failrun or flatout reject anything in the first place that is non-meta (especially if it’s a non-pelt swordi), non-optimal or not working with the usual strategies just because they heard from teh forumz that non-pelt swordis are not good.

Think for example about that group that cleared 20f, with that Melstis-Krivis3. Many here considered that skill and that build impractical or useless before that and most groups would probably not have taken that Krivis3 with them because “it’s not meta”/“it’s not a real heal build”/“We want a full healer instead”.
The thing is, If you go with a non-standard group constellation you probably need to develop new strategies, like that krivis3 group did.
And the same probably goes for groups with DPS swordis.

#581

[quote=“migliole, post:579, topic:220944”]
The easier path becomes rather convenient or pretty much necessary.
[/quote]That is true, take an example of mercenary post mission. Everyone queue in Siauliai, despite that’s not the best one but the easiest one.

Since people with less skills would queue Siauliai more, the queue time is shorter, resulting in even more Siauliai queue. And gradually no one queue other missions anymore, thus a meta is born.

I dare say none. Like I said, you need to build your team around your main DPS. Until a person is crazy enough to say “yo guys, let’s go with this DPS and build a team around it”, people will just follow the meta build since it is safe.

#582

[quote=“thailehuy, post:581, topic:220944”]
I dare say none. Like I said, you need to build your team around your main DPS. Until a person is crazy enough to say “yo guys, let’s go with this DPS and build a team around it”, people will just follow the meta build since it is safe.[/quote]
I don’t really think you’d need to completely rebuild a team around that DPS swordi, however i think standard strategies aren’t as viable as with an usual meta group so slight alterations would be required…

#583

Not completely of course, you will still need healer and cryo - chrono, as none do a better job than them.

The main difference between swordies and others is that swordies are melee, which mean it is a much bigger strain for healer to keep them alive comparing to range DPS. The play style will be completely different as well.

#584

Finally. Someone said it. Thank you.

#585

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

#586

Here I thought people often fails ET runs even with meta builds, and now somebody plays a doppel and does good with it and somebody said he’s just extra baggage? Wow…

#587

Gross simplification.
Meta is generally the common strats and picks players prescribe themselves to given their knowledge (or bandwagon of people with knowledge) of the game, it is not inherently the most efficient, and at times is not even sound. There are things like counter/anti-meta picks for the sole choice of enhanced performance against meta picks.

It’s easier to have a static meta for PvE but even in Tree of Savior you have different areas or even maps where different classes/compositions excel which is why you have a WB “meta”, ET, Grinding, PvP, etc.
They’re not always efficient (Frost Ground on flying enemies) and can be deconstructed ocassionally (Tactics to make other teams perform poorly on WB’s).

The idea that X is good in all circumstances is often untrue.

#588

We got lots of sw 2- hop 3- doppel- dragoon, sw 2- barb 3- fencer 2, sw 2- barb 2 corsair 2 - shinobi.

People who have gone that path says they are a solid dps but scatters mobs, cant damage good, a dead weight most of the time. This are the jokes. The feeling kirito fanatical “dps” build.

This needs to be a topic. So far, 2handers are the only viable dps build even if you have non peltasta ( I hate to admit it) but how about those cancer builds? Lmao.

#589

The problem in sw in my opinion … is skill .

Compare to other class …
Fix number without scaling .
Buff skill got set back …

Sw frontline . Meatshield ( wow nice manual dodge … then lag strike )
gung ho increases atk but decrease def
Deed of valor … same get hit to get strong lower def

Archer safe distant … relax … ( lag … still safe distant relax )
Compare to running shot 200 % 30 % attack speed
23 duration max level /cd 35 archer got
12 sec to throw his skill after that running shot again …

Sad swordman buff its a alot … of downside …
(I only play sw and cleric dont know about other classes)

#590

8th ET 5F cubes today, first recorded full length sacrificing FPS.

inbefore some genius like “Chakri_Griffindor” starts trolling

2 Likes
#591

the only thing i see you doing is walking around and using bash lol.

3 Likes
#592

Lol, you mean u wanna try to kill 2F-4F mobs with 600k HP and hit like trucks? XD