Why people keep discussions like this goes beyond my comprehension. Do you play for fun? If the answer is “yes”, play it. If the answer is “no”, play another video game. I play melee only in every single game and although I feel swordies could have more roles, I’m having fun with my Corsair, my Cataphract and my soon to be Doppel. There are so many games I can play but I’m having fun playing ToS for now. Can’t we keep things simple?
This is actually ONE OF (I just felt I needed to capitalise this) the reasons why I became interested in Swordsman, after trying almost all the Wizard classes. Elememe and Chrono3 just outshines (I care because I’m a team player) every other Wizard build too much (pve) and sadly, these were two of the 4 classes I found to be the most boring, along with Cryo3 and Thauma.
Thankfully for Swordsman, all you really need is one circle in R2; and thankfully, Swashbuckling is one skill I find to be really fun. I like how I’m in control of the group and everyone’s at the back seat just spamming skills.
@danielnito007
For some people, it stops being fun when people won’t take you into their parties because you don’t bring much into the party, which won’t be fun for them. Then you have to solo 230-280.
Wall in response to scaling buffs on Gung-ho, Concentrate.
Swordsmen always lacked the damage output of other classes, just in closed beta with a low level-cap there was a lack of mobs that lived long enough to justify the other classes high damage skills. People saw this as they approached 200, but the Highlander-Barb bandwagon and “omgerd archer sucks” bandwagons weren’t listening.
They can buff the Gung-ho and Concentrate, but the reality is it’s not going to mean anything unless you break the skills. Swordsmen don’t have the same amount of physical attack applications, they never did.
Swordmen isn’t crying out for buffs.
How damage works in tree of savior.
Multi-hits are multiple applications of your physical/magical attack.
Some skills have modifiers in them, that work similarly from an effective damage standpoint in most cases.
Carter Strike is 4 hits with a 50% modifier.
Thats 6x applications of your physical attack. 2 overheat so 12.
If you hit Leather its 5x/11x, If you hit Plate its 8x/16x.
Multi-shot 15 is 16 applications (mind you Missile does have a damage penalty) on 2 overheat for 32 applications. However Multi-shot does not start out with aoe ratio like Carter does, so it’s weaker for multiple enemies. However even early on. Flame Ground 5 is 26 applications (over its 20s duration).
We see this expand.
Needle Blow, Feint + Barrage, Wugong Gu, Snatching, Coursing, Retrieve, Magic Arrow, Retreat Shot, Electrocute, Frost Cloud, Hail, Psychic Pressure, Cure, Possession, Zaibas, Carnivory, Flesh Cannon, Flare Shot, etc.
Swordsmen don’t have a lot of high volume multi-hits.
Pouncing(ktos version), Rush, Cyclone, Bushin’d Kunai are the main ones.
Stabbing, Sept Eptioles, Hexen Dropper are another set after that.
Earth wave (2.5x modifier), Seism (1.7x modifier) obviously aren’t going to compete and to make them do so you’d need to have buffs be giving absolutely ridiculous modifier bonuses.
Swordsmen have this issue before buffs are taken into consideration.
They either have base damage high enough to kill mobs so quickly that their lack of physical attack applications doesn’t matter in practice, or they feel the loss of damage.
The only super buffs are Deeds of Valour and Shinobi bushins, both of which increase your vulnerability and Bushins have their own issues.
If someones expecting C1 skills to remedy all their damage concerns, they’re way out of touch.
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Didn’t help that r7 didn’t exist, and c2 Magic Arrow is only 15 hits instead of the 25 hits it has at c3, which in addition to lower skill damage, probably results in it being about half the damage of c3 one.
Probably because peltasta is a “must have” that is completely out of ouch with some builds. People get wiz3 because quickcast is a incredible buff, and people get peltasta only for convenience. To a Dps, peltasta is a wasted rank.
Say i’m making a DPS 2-HSwordsman. Peltasta will bring nothing in terms of damage for me, but the meta dictates that I ‘must have’ it
Now, would an cookie-cutter elememe get stronger without Wiz3?
TL;DR : Peltasta is a chore, Wiz3 is optimization
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imo they have to implement much more circles which are able to TAUNT, each class should have one taunt option, or they have to fix the damn MOB ai to be more aggresive like in RO, in ro there was like no need for a taunter, only a mobber as base aggro was insane.
In this game in 95% of the maps the density is so low and the mobs react to incredible slow its really super annoying to not have some kind of gathering skill. This is also why wizards are A HUGE PAIN to level, leveling my wizards has been the worst mmo leveling experience i had. Utterly retarded how IMC thinks this is fine.
swordies have %hp. triple base hp mod and more from squire, swashbuckle, and higher block rate.
that’s what peltasta have, not swordies in general
I don’t see how much impact that has on DPS in reality, unless everyone else dies.
I was only refuting this point
Your cleric example doesn’t have a damage buff either.
There are multipliers on spear lunge, preparation, deeds of valor, bunshin no jutsu, cross guard, high kick, etc
but sw still weak blah blah
There will always be a weakest class. If sw gets buffed, then someone else will be weaker and then they will complain. It makes no difference in the end.
Swordsman can be buffed and still be weak, but the gap in power between dps Swordsman and other dps classes is just too high.
When Cleric can go support and out-dps a dps Swordsman with max attributes and gear, something is obviously wrong.
DoV only adds to physical attack, it does not scale skill damage portion.
Spear lunge is nice, yes
Bunshin is bugged to no limit.
As some one mentioned before, damage wise swordie is not too bad there are other things that should be considered, such as cool downs, hit boxes, animation times. Those are the things that are more crucial.
We have to be close to our target and also damage it and avoid damage, it is crazy with some animations, for example have you seen Pierce animation? Or like have you tried aiming with synchro thrusting?
Or my worst example gae bolg, you can’t even aim it it just throws it straight who knows where.
If they’re going to make swordsman just as good as other classes, it should be based on their ability to root their opponents or break out of cc. Swordsman strengths should be more on their utility rather than mere damage numbers. And by utility, should be party based, rather than mere debuffs that the other classes can make them look silly.
They could give Swordsman equiv multipliers of Archer and Swordsman would still do lower dps. This is because Swordsman have to be in melee and follow their targets to do damage, have to deal with CC more often than ranged classes, and have longer cooldowns and/or lower hits/ticks for abilities compared to Archer, Wizard and even Cleric in certain cases.
As Swordsman are right now, they don’t do enough damage to warrant their pick over other classes that far surpass them in damage.
Swordsman are treated as utility picks atm (Peltasta, Squire and maybe Rodelero), but not as dps unless they’re a burst build like Shinobi. This isn’t acceptable for players that want to go dps route and actually be effective as a dps role for end-game content.
That will all have to depend on IMC. Imagine if mobs AI was tuned to ignore aggro/threat, then you can no longer blame a swordsmen for their inability to aggro due to this exception and at the same time, DPS with low hp are simply dragged to the slaughterhouse.
Given the current state, perfectly fine if people want to ignore swordsman simply for DPS, but I can play the same game and not add these people to party because they’re not “meta” or optimal builds. It’s a cruel world, and given that swordsmen have the higher hp pool, this is often made up with inferior damage (which is still quite inferior given the current state of the game).
They’d have to nerf Barrier or remove Barrier scrolls, rework Meistis + Revive interaction and other Meistis interactions that make mitigation a complete joke, and give enemies more range to their attacks to make the aggro/threat change relevtant.
Dps swordsman aren’t meta/optimal because they can’t perform their role effectively. They don’t do enough dps to warrant being picked. The animation times for their skills lock them in dangerous situations, negating a lot of skills that would otherwise be useful for giving them more dps options. The skills that are useful have a long cooldown, have flat scaling and/or low uptime.
High hp shouldn’t be coupled with low damage. High hp is meant to counter the fact that Swordsman will be in melee.
Swordsman are already held back in damage with low AoE attack ratio increase options, and the other points I’ve already mentioned. Low damage as an additional penalty isn’t very logical.
- Not entirely needed if you give AI aoe capabilities other than the terrible lethargy
- I’ve already mentioned that swordsmen are already low enough on the DPS chain that their utility needs to be increased to make them viable
- High hp is usually met with low damage, this is a common theme of RPG balancing. Yes I know that distance/mobility is another obstacle, but swordsmen aren’t given enough utility to deal with distance issues, only “defensive” options vs the extreme offense of your opponents. They need offensive options that will allow them to breakthrough such ridiculous cc options which other classes have over them. Low AoE attack ratio I don’t think is too much of an issue, their DPS as mentioned before, needs to be better via utility (this doesn’t necessarily mean debuffs, they may be granted a skill in the future that will allow them to simply “cut through” such defensive options that wizards, clerics and archers have.
Don’t worry, Murmillo is coming along with its gap-closer:
What you meant to say is High Mitigation is usually met with Low Damage, because when you choose gear it is largely a decision where gear has high mitigation and low damage or high damage and low mitigation in RPGs.
In ToS, The innate higher HP pools to compensate for being in melee is enough. Swordsman shouldn’t additionally have lower damage otherwise the tradeoff isn’t worth it. It’s also counterproductive to Swordsman being capable of performing well within dps routes.
I don’t know what RPGs you play, but the trend is that Melee units get high hp to balance out being in melee, and bursty high-damage options while ranged units have lower hp and sustained damage. This is a common trend across many RPGs especially MMORPGs like WoW, Rift, FFXIV, etc. This is because being in melee is always regarded as dangerous and presents less opportunities to do damage from CC/etc… so damaging abilities are usually bigger than ranged/magical. As things are now, even if enemy units lacked CC and mobility, Swordsman would still struggle in dps due to low damage.
Even with the changes on kToS (better animation time for skills, 0 cd Skyliner, Cleave buff), Swordsman still struggle with dps… so simply increasing their utility is not enough.
Give swordsman some instant gap closers (right now all they have is pain barrier, or the hoplite jump skill and that is if you go hoplite), and watch how quickly other classes will scream for it to be debuffed. It’s low DPS is mostly caused by lack of mobility and cc options of other classes. Increasing its DPS (even if slightly) will not compensate for the extreme damage (let alone status effects) that other classes have over it. If certain status effects could not be dispelled via dispel scrolls or skills that are exclusive to swordsman alone, then the chances of a swordsman winning are much higher.