Tree of Savior Forum

[Suggestion] Token price reduction compensation

General Discussion
#116

Your first paragraph as a reply to mine would imply that you actually wanted bots to flood the market with even more Tokens, thus decreasing the TP to silver value and promoting buying silver from RMT?

You’re assuming the Token to silver value will drop and it will screw over the Token buyers. That will also mean that 99 TP is worth even less silver. So original Token buyers would get even less valued TP. Also how is refunding paying customers half of what they paid for because the item is now worth half making no sense to you? Ever heard of Best Price Guarantee policy that almost every retail store in North America has?

I highly doubt even with 99TP Tokens they will ever be as low as the week before F2P. If Token values drop because there’s suddenly a huge supply I will quit the game. Because that would mean bots that has been live for a month did not get banned yet.

I would even prefer no refunds over their current decision. The bots and RMT are so obviously influencing the game. Did you see what happened to Arde Daggers after they announce temporarily closing the game to new players? Bots bought them all.

#117

Im one of those who have a lot of tokens stored thanks to all ppl selling em on the market. Now… I don’t think that giving 99 TP or something to each token that every player has atm is the right thing to do cause damn… It does not make sense at all.

Ofc I would be happy to see all that TP from my tokens but Jesus… Makes no sense giving real money to someone who just brought those tokens with silver and have not spent a single coin IRL. Still, thats IMC’s decision so i’m not going to press any further. Just hope they kinda take some time to look at this more carefully.

Just to make things clear… I got tons of tokens saved and I still don’t think that giving TPs for players like me is right.(Though ofc i got the DLCs as well)

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#118

Do you seriously think IMC will change their minds?

Why are they still allowing tokens to be sell in the market? It’s getting harder for them now to track the people who bought tokens with money

#119

Whats the point in bots buy a token to get another one? It’s a pure time waste for them because they will get an untradable token with 0 profit assuming they will sell another token cause of 99 tp compensation.

About Arder dagger, bot actually buy them for self use and the majority are real players gambling in the market.

#120

Nah, i was merely stating how your calculations and logic were completely off the point. And there is no need to involve bots, the market would have been flooded by the players themselves. You can’t take the whole cost change out of context. If tokens always costed 99 TP, their silver cost would have been different as well.
Saying that they should refund “paying customers half of what they paid for because the item is now worth half” makes indeed no sense, if they sold those tokens. They got silvers by selling them, at a price that depended on them costing 198 TP. I’ve already explained above how much more tokens there could have been in the market with a 99 TP price, even considering only the 380 TP pack. It only makes sense that the silver prices of the tokens would end up being lower - the law of demand and offer is one of the basics of economics, after all.
The ones that should get refunded are the end users of those tokens, be it the ones that used their own TP or the ones that used silvers to buy them from market, as those are the ones that they paid in full and got an item that’s worth half. Whereas the ones that sold them paid their full TP price, but also got an equivalent “full” silver price, thus they didn’t lose anything from the change. Also, if they did so, they would also end up giving free TP to the bots (oh, i guess this is where i should say that you wanting for the original buyers to get compensated implies that you wanted bots to get even more TP to flood the market with even more Tokens, thus decreasing the TP to silver value and promoting buying silver from RMT)

And tokens will have their price lowered anyway, even if we weren’t considering the compensations. Tokens prices are getting cut in half, and it is only logical that it will have an impact on the market in the form of an higher supply, and thus lesser prices, as the demand has no reason to increase at a ratio that would offset the token cost change.

#121

Simply math for simply minds indeed. It’s incorrect.
As I posted in another thread:

They bought tokens at the minimum cap, any time, all time. They wouldnt have been able to buy them any lower, so they wouldnt lose anything at all.

Anyone with a few millions could of bought 10-20 tokens with that. And earned themselves 1k-2k TP in the process. On all servers.

That’s why the current form of compensation is down right stupid. It makes no sense to compensate like this.
The only ones gaining from this, are the ones that didnt spend TP, but spend silver.

#122

I completely agree with those points.

Also a really simple example for the retards that cant understand why this isnt fair for the people who actually spent money on it.

Situation A:

If you go to a store and you purchase a T-Shirt for $10, after a few days you regret about the color or whatever and you sell it to someone else for $5.
Then the store realized that the price was wrong and its going to compensate everyone who purchased it. The original owner goes with the receipt to claim his $5 back, no harm done, the store protected their original customer.

Situation B:

If you go to a store and you purchase a T-Shirt for $10, after a few days you regret about the color or whatever and you sell it to someone else for $5.
Then the store realized that the price was wrong and its going to compensate everyone who bring the T-Shirt. The original owner gets f*cked, and the person who purchased it, pretty much gets a free T-Shirt.

IRL There is no situation B, if you think thats the way to go, thats not how life works, its just retarded.

Any normal company would protect the people who actually spend money on their stuff. And for the “P2W” haters or similar, please accept the fact that without the money from people who actually spend money on this game, no one would be able to play this game. Do you really think that with your $10 from founders they are going to keep alive the servers? or is it with the $150+ from the REAL founders?

As a solution, IMC should extend the token time or simply just dont compensate anyone.

2 Likes
#123

Not to the same extent. “The bots most likely purchased Tokens to cut their losses by selling them on the market. This also creates the illusion that TP to silver is cheap and RMT becomes over valued.”

So original Token buyers would get even less valued TP, by your logic that Tokens will become cheaper. So they don’t win anything do they?

If that happens I quit, that means bots aren’t being banned after a month.

By your logic 198 TP = 350k (Month lowest price on Klaipeda).
The original Token buyer gets 99TP. So did they get 175k silver worth of TP or did they get 350k silver worth of TP?

What would 99TP be worth after the refund?

If it increases from 99TP = 350k that means original Token buyers got a bad deal and people who bought Tokens from the market got a good deal.

If it decreases from 99TP = 350k that means original Token buyers got less valued TP and the people who bought Tokens from the market got a bad deal.

^ That is your agrument for fairness if Token prices drop. I understand that. It’s not worth it. Token is more likely to go up in price than down. F2P creates the demand. Original Token buyers would most likely spend that 99TP for their Tokens to use themselves and won’t be selling it again. It will be over a month since founders pack when they implement this.

The other argument is this:

Silver is easy to get and cheap to buy. RMT players or farming players had excessive silver with nothing to buy most likely hoarded Tokens. That minority who is going to get 200 dollars worth of TP is obscene.

Now comparing the two arguments what one is more detrimental towards the game? People gaining/losing silver that could’ve been lost by upgrading equipment at higher levels 350k+ silver per upgrade? Or minority group getting ridiculous amounts of TP especially benefiting RMTers?

I think people gaining/losing silver is the better option and healthier for the game with the least amount of impact. 350k means nothing. I’m also fine with nobody receiving a refund, that also has very little impact to the game.

#124

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

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#125

IMC could have offered no compensation, or a compensation that benefits everyone equally.

No compensation -> Okay, we got ■■■■■■.
Token time extension (Let’s say 15 days per token) -> Everyone is okay with this (even if people end up with 2 years worth of tokens)

At this point, I could care less about receiving said compensation, but I’d like to at least see some sort of control over the price of the tokens, since the current value (700k on Silute as an example) is “twice” what it should cost after next maintenance, they should cap it at half the price on each server (350k in Silute)

#126

Bots sold Tokens because they had to buy founders too before F2P. I don’t believe a lot of founders sold Tokens. I didn’t sell any. There was no need cause Tokens were so cheap.

They do not get ■■■■■■, if the Token prices increase. They get a Token anyways. Once you reach higher levels you’ll realize how easy 600k is to get.

I have nothing against F2Pers getting enchant scrolls. I actually want enchant scrolls to be 5TP but that’s another topic.

Capping Tokens at a low price would make nobody sell Tokens.

#127

Well, people who are “all in” for this compensation, say that people who BOUGHT TP and SOLD tokens, got the full price, in this case 700k. Then:

Why should people get the same amount of silver for a Token that costs half its original value?

#129

People who bought tokens in the market paid 198 TP worth of silvers and got an item that was valued 198 TP in silvers at the time; but now the worth of that item is getting cut to 99 TP. They still paid 198 TP worth of silvers, though, and that’s why there is a compensation.
For the original buyers it doesn’t change anything - their TP still has the same value. No one will remove the silvers they got from the sale. If the prices were lower from the start, they would have been able to get more tokens with those TP and sell more of them, albeit obviously at lower prices.
And that’s why there won’t be a compensation for them - the silver value they got had a direct correlation to the TP they spent at the time.

And as long as there aren’t artificial barriers to keep the price up, those prices will lower with the change in TP price, especially once there is a way to buy TP that isn’t capped by other factors (like being able to buy only a single DLC per type). Whales will have a field day once that happens.

And as far as the game goes, whoever gets compensated doesn’t really matter. There is gonna be an influx of TP either way, whoever ends up getting them. And however they get used, they’re still TP that won’t need to be bought.

People who hoarded tokens will get 200 dollars worth of TP, you say?
See, that’s where you’re missing the point again - they already had them, they were just in another form - that is, tokens. And to get them, they had to pay token sellers a sum equivalent to those “200 dollars worth of TP”. That won’t change. What instead changes is how those “dollars worth of TP” are composed. If they gave another token instead of 99 TP, the worth would still be the same, after all.
Obviously people who bought silvers from third-party sites should be banned, but the ones that farmed them themselves have nothing to be ashamed for.
If they used them to get tokens, it means they created a demand for those, and people selling them were able to price them accordingly. That’s the market. If they costed less to start with, the price would have changed accordingly. If they didn’t get them before, and will instead get after the patch, they’ll pay another price as well, one that the market will dictate once those new conditions are applied.

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#130

I’m amazed you’re still trying to explain to them. I already gave up.

They think that silvers has no real value. They think that even with the token TP price getting cut by half, the supply and demand ratio will remain the same.

Tokens -> Prices halved -> Supply doubled -> Prices in silver remain the same
^ This is literally their logic. Obviously has no idea how the law of supply and demand works.

Another thing is how they can’t understand that the sellers already got a silver that amounts to an equivalent of 198 TP when the item got sold. Whether the price was too small or too high, it doesn’t matter, that’s how economics works. While the benefits of the token remains the same, this is totally irrelevant because what dictates the price of an item is the supply and demand.

What am I even doing here, brain starts to hurt again.

1 Like
#131

Shouldnt it be:
Bots/DLC exploits > Token oversupply/low demand > Silver prices plummeted > TP Prices halved > oversupply dried out by hoarders > Supply is limited (no direct TP purchases yet) > silver price of token will either remain same but most likely they will be even more expensive than before half-pricing.

Blame the bots and DLC exploiters that injected way too many tokens into economy. And yes under these conditions your Supply/Demand argument barely works.

#132

Realistically, those shouldn’t be considered because in the first place, it was illegal. Nevertheless, IMC already said it themselves that they are actually careful about these things, which is why we have alot of restrictions in the first place so we could only take their word for it.

We also have no proof if there was actually an oversupply of token due to bots/boleto exploiters so its also a possibility that it’s actually just an oversupply due to the low demand since almost everyone has their own token to use when the game started. No one actually knows so your argument is invalid since it’s just backed by an assumption.

With your suggestion though, you also want legit players to be punished for their hardwork and you talk about fairness? Hypocrite.

#133

but that did happen, also with the help of
low demand since almost everyone has their own token to use when the game started.
Ignoring it wont change reality.

So once those tokens’ time ends demand will rise so prices will do same aswell.

Trying to apply supply/demand logic into chaotic unstable market wont work.

Btw i expect more token infestation waves: right after the compensation and once they allow direct TP purchases. Then in a couple of months market will stabilize but prices wont be as low as we used to see them (to begin with pricing $20 item for 2 hours of casual gameplay worth of currency is dumb).

I never said anything about punishment, dont put words in my mouth. They awarded themselves with token supply for their “hard” work and that hasnt changed. Giving out extra freebies is pointless.

I feel like we are about to go in circles again. Maybe stop?

#134

Proof that there’s actually an extremely huge supply from bots and boleto users? You’re also forgetting the fact that the market prices is being limited by this min-max system where undercutting won’t work thus the huge drop on prices were limited to an extent.

If we also apply the law of supply and demand here, let’s say there were 10 pages of tokens from legit players and 20 more pages from bots/exploiters. Do you seriously believe that the prices won’t get any lower if there were only 10 pages of legit token sellers?

Hypothetically, if let’s say IMC was able to remove the 20 pages of tokens from bots/exploiters. 10 pages of supply is still huge, huge enough to make the prices lower and lower. That is inevitable, that is the basic rule of supply and demand.

See. This is why your logic fails so bad. You are expecting more waves of tokens on the market once the compensations were delivered AND more once they allow direct TP purchase. That is indeed true BUT you’re expecting the prices won’t be as low? I keep repeating this but are you for real? You keep going back here w/o understanding the basic law of supply and demand, which is why we are —[quote=“nizidr, post:133, topic:280148”]
we are about to go in circles again
[/quote]
You are deliberately being stubborn and almost everyone in this thread against your idea can clearly see that. WHICH is the main reason we kept going in circles, you are re-using invalid arguments and dumb logic which were already thrown out of the window.

#135

198TP will permanently be repriced as 99TP. Give half of the TP back to those who possess/used prior 198TPs. It’s so simple, why do you have to make it so complicated? It’s not like dlc buyers got nothing for their tokens when they sold it.

#136

About 2 weeks after those boleto exploiters were banned at one day 30 pages of tokens at their minimum allowed market price appeared on every server (except Varena, because there were no transfers on it nor exclusive access to it). Where did they come from? Also they weren’t removed but gradually bought out by players, including during current compensation hype.

Conspiracy theorists may suggest that those were injected by IMC themselves to help F2P crowd to acquire tokens they werent able to buy because there are no way to directly purchase TP.

Yes, because it is impossible because they were already at their minimum limit set by IMC. I and think they will keep minimum price to protect token sellers from rash and poorly thought decisions like selling their valuables for literally nothing.