Tree of Savior Forum

STR/DEX/CON has huge balance problems VS INT/CON in PvP

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#1

Right now, all physical damage classes need to build a mix of STR/DEX for damage, since STR is not as good without at least some DEX and vice versa due to the way crit rate/crit attack/accuracy are split up.

That leaves very little room for CON, which means that melee builds tend to get blown up in PvP. If they opt to go full CON, then that works, but that heavily gimps their PvE grind speed.

Oh, but you might say, well that’s just to balance things out, so that one build can’t be good for PvE and PvP. That would be a relevant argument except that Wizards can just build pure CON or INT/CON and be viable in both PvE and PvP because they only need 2 stats as opposed to 3. Check the Korean PvP leaderboards, and surprise surprise, it’s mostly Warlocks.

Since physical classes are building STR/DEX anyway, why not have that DEX be more meaningful defensively by allowing it to apply to spells? Even if it was at a reduced rate, at least if it would do something.

This is the crux of the balancing problem when you have 2 classes (Cleric/Wizard) that only need 2 stats (INT/CON) and a bunch more that have to spread their points out between 3 (STR/DEX/CON). SPR is worthless in PvP due to the way in-combat regen works, and it’s almost never needed for PvE, since you’re mostly gated by cooldowns and not SP – especially with pots.

#2

str gives a few advantage like carrying weight, and things
dex gives dodge and things

int? 1 matk

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#3

This might be more of an issue of the game being poorly understood rather than the function of individual stats. How long has the game been out in Korea, and what do people mostly roll? Mages are popular because they’re easy to level as they have access to some of the best AoE in the game, but that doesn’t mean they’re the best.

#4

mages are popular seriously? mages are not popular, wiz3ele3warlock are popular.

most of the other build don’t work. which is sad. sorc are just a laughing stock with that AI, necromancer skeleton dies in 1 hit to bosses, linkers are awesome but well they are linkers. adding them in any of your build would not let you go wiz3ele3warlock which is the best and every party wants them for earth tower.

i love wizard, always do wiz in every single MMO but in ToS wizard is wiz3ele3wl and nothing else. not talking about support here alright? because if you do support you can actually build a few things and still have no problem in party except when you solo leveling.

#5

Sounds like they need to lower evasion like WOE :smile:

#6

int status should give 1 magic amp thats what i think

#7

Of course tweaks need to be made to classes, but I don’t think wizard as linear as you claim. Just because “every party wants” something doesn’t make it required/the best. The game will be hurt so badly if you only want “Peltasta swordsman”, “Healing Cleric”, “Wiz3Ele3WL”, etc. This isn’t raiding like WoW, we don’t have DPS meters, and versatile groups really need to be welcomed for this game to survive.

#8

Eh? for PvE I’m pretty sure pyro/linker are popular
For PvP it’s cryo/chrono
Wiz3/ele3 is good AoE, but not the only build in mage tree

#9

pvp currently have no merit in the game so let’s not talk about it.
yeah linker are popular but pyro linker? not really. it’s pretty good if nothing else but all people care about are the linker everyone can do without the pyromancer. it deals mediocre damage at best anyway. and there’s lot’s of bugs around fireball.

wiz3ele3warlock, it doesn’t end on ele3. if it does at least we got 1 degree of freedom to choose the last class but unfortunately this is the truth i don’t know where you see it but people only wants that ultra high dps build of wiz on higher level or linker. which brings it to my point.

@jerretjacoby i made like lot’s of wiz class, conventional build, unconventional build. almost everything. not everyone maxed but it hits me hard whenever i play off build. it went useless in no time. especially sorcerer. the summon has this super awesome tanking capability if the ai aren’t so stupid.

there’s a reason why every party wants it, your argument contradicts itself it’s wanted because it is the best for the condition that is earth tower and most of the dungeon and mission. now let’s talk outside of dungeon,mission and party play. this build survive kinda the best out of the other wiz class except sorc because the summon can literally tank boss and live (though your sp won’t live as long) but the damage of the summon that makes you unable to use any other spell because your sp regen is blocked is so bad. i had to wait 1 minute before my temple shooter killed 1 plant enemies i forgot the name.

i feel you, i want versatile groups of classes. i want people to pick other classes but dude, i’m not talking about what i want i’m talking about what is.

#10

Yeah that why wiz alway fullcon int need some buff spr too.

#11

I think that just because a build becomes momentarily useless it doesn’t imply it will always be useless. Think about the power spike in going from w2 to w3 or ele1 to ele2 with 5-9 saved points. Before those classes hit their power spike, they’re pretty weak compared to a lot of other dps classes in pve. So far we’ve found what is the easiest to succeed with, but I doubt we’ve found all that can work. A lot of class/build combos probably require specific team mates to shine (chrono 3 is the explicit one), so I expect to see people creating interesting class combinations once guilds become more common and people level alts. I have build ideas I want to try but don’t want to solo level as; I wouldn’t be surprised if other people did as well.

#12

no wiz don’t always go full con, most of them do go int but always has this feeling of regret that they only get 1 stat bonuses compared to the useless SPR that gives tons of bonuses, and then again it gives block penetration which is useless for wizards.

@donwerey dude when i say i don’t max them out i mean i stopped around level 230 where i got all the class and the potential skill that i thought would work and it didn’t you are trying to so hard to tell me that off build could work, it could not.
i even have this wiz3ele2sorc2 and it was complete and utter shat. i wish i had taken ele3 instead which means? conventional build with stupid AI following you. if i got warlock instead of that useless sorc the build will be perfect. you see the problem here? i went linker sorc and all. it always has this condition where it doesn’t work unlike wiz3ele3wl

i’ve tried so many to the point where if you do read a few of my comment here and there i stopped playing ToS due to balancing which is extremely disappointing for me also all the little bugs are extremely annoying but i digress. now after trying a lot of class combination i can confidently say that wiz3ele3warlock or play other class or go support with linker nobody care about the other class as long as you have linker.

remember ragnarok wizard? or ragnarok warlock? do you know what spell that they use to demolish people and monsters in the game? it’s firebolt. yeah that first ever skill you got when you turn into a job 1 mage. that is what i call balancing. unlike here. reach rank 7 and you can totally ignore your extremely low hitting pyromancer class.

#13

I’ve seen a fair share of all types of wizard while running daily mission and dungeons. Yes wiz/ele is more popular, but not 80-90% popular. Do you know what is not popular? Swordman build without peltasta …

#14

whatever man i’m just telling you my whole experience as a wiz only player. i have absolutely 0 idea on how swordsman work because i simply don’t care about them. for me whenever i play an MMO it’s always mages first and foremost. if it’s bad i’m done with the game.

you can take it however you want but my experience holds true at least for my self because you know, i went trough all that hell, there is no way i could forget it.

#15

I’m not saying you are wrong, I’m saying you are biased because you only play wizard. When other classes look at wizard they see a different picture.

#16

i used to be biased, but from how much i played wiz in all games and this one too i lost that bias ness. now i completely analyze specific and broad combination of the classes and i can confidently say that it was exactly like what i said above.

if i’m biased and then started to say that wiz are amazing against all the odds i’ve had to go trough then you are correct for saying i’m biased. but here i’m not even saying anything good about it except for the wiz3ele3wl and linkers.
wiz c1 leveling is easy enough because mobs are super weak
wiz c2 is almost hellish since you only have 1 damage skill that is notable and it’s earth quake which has pretty small aoe ratio
wiz c3 you start to feel some power with magic misile but that’s it, earth quake become the most useless skill ever that you will hope you didn’t put any point on it
there’s a lot bad things going on with the wizard tree. all of this for quick cast attribute.

#17

The obvious problem with summon classes is that the AI is almost as bad as the monsters you fight leveling up (maybe worse? lol). This is something I hope will be worked out in the future.

I don’t think critiquing the class system of ToS relative to RO bears much merit; in RO, you didn’t get to combine classes, so finding space to make past moves relevant wasn’t nearly as hard. Here, the devs have to consider what ramping up the power of Arcane Bolt might imply across the entire spectrum of Wizards. It’s a rather daunting task, and I’d say they’ve done a decent job with it so far, and I hope it’s only going to improve. It doesn’t help that a lot of moves and attributes for Wizards don’t seem to be working properly, further adding to the weakness of the class outside of the moves with big numbers and great AoE. I don’t want to be a ■■■■ and say your testing is irrelevant, but I don’t think you can claim by yourself that you tested everything and have irrefutable evidence that w3e3lock is the best combo. It’s what I’m going for because I also agree that it’s probably the best PvE comp you can go.

With a couple changes to some classes as well as bug fixes, I think the possibility to play other classes will open up as more circle become available to the game. Something as simple as adding a toggle to Fireball to stop other players from hitting it could make a huge difference.

#18

Wiz c2 is weak, sure, but don’t forget you get surecast, which is the only way to prevent spellcasting from being interrupted by auto attacks for the Wizard tree afaik. And Magic Missile is great and seems to be relevant even far into the end game thanks to the way it now works, so I’d disagree that W3 is only for Quick Cast. I think that the Wiz circle is extremely well balanced by giving it a few really impacting spells and not diluting it too much.

I’m also pretty certain Chrono 3 is amazing with Archers and Soldiers, but I can’t say I’ve gotten as far as you. I just find it hard to believe that attack speed and 25% crit rate aren’t bananas for physical classes.

#19

have it your way then. why should i bother trying to convince you.

#20

Because, clearly, you think you’re right and you’re willing to have a discussion about it. I’m not completely disagreeing with you, and trying to converse on the topic. If you’ve no interest in constructive conversation, then you’ve no practical place here. It’s a waste of your time, I think, and definitely a waste of mine. :frowning: