Never had a problem with SP when i was playing my wizard.
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This is where Jump-normals come in. if you time it right the entire casting animation finishes while airborne, negating the hold-still requirement.
I mean, it’s still an extreme slog (I opted to attack this from “boss HP in solo is too damn high” instead of “I shouldn’t be needing 5 SP potions to solo a boss in any remotely reasonable amount of time” in my own thread), and mana regen is still a huge issue…
However, it’s really only an issue in solo. I personally found that most of the problems I was having with mana went away completely in parties… mostly because the aoe spells are hilariously efficient when you have a lure, and bosses die a lot faster (say 1-3 sp pots) when you’ve got other people doing damage.
Really I’d say more of an issue of wizzie vs swordie damage output is the free +50% swordies can get on all their normals outside of the “bring a wizzie or else” fights. This also contributes to the “early wizard is extreme suffering” problem.
Fixing the SP regen rate for early wizards would be a good way to alleviate the whole “wizard is kinda useless except for when it’s required” of early game, without having too much of an impact on late game (your mana and mana regen scales upwards faster than your mana costs as time goes on, and you also will have better gear, such as blue gem in gloves).
I made a swordie->peltasta yesterday starting at around mid day. Within like 10 hours I had caught up to where my Wizard was, had significantly more money, and felt like I was in a significantly better place game wise for continuing on. Of course part of that is because I had trial run a lot of the game on my wizard without knowing what I was doing. But it was also because, if you play rock paper scissors with your damage type, the swordie can kill just as fast as the wizard- except only costing 9 sp to do pierce, and being free to do slash or blunt, meaning you basically don’t need sp. Only times I’d run out of mana was if I was tactically switching between Gung Ho and Guardian, or spending mana on slightly harder hits simply because I could and that mana wasn’t doing anything else.
The exception to the quick fights on swordie? The high-pdef-magic-vuln fights which I’ve dubbed “Bring a Wizzie Or Else”
Swordie is insanely easier than wizzie early on, and while that’s par the course, it’s for a really stupid reason: Wizzie mana regen is complete ass.
I mean, if it was taking me 1 spell to kill things that took 5 normals from a swordie, you might have a point. But it was taking me 2 normals to kill things that would take 1 spell (and maybe 1-2 normals) on wiz, and 5-6 normals for things that would take my wizzie 2-3 spells and 0-3 normals.
And this was with 2-handed on wizzie and 1-handed on swordie.
The kill rates aren’t even remotely aligned for downtime required. About the only thing wizzie has over swordie is aoe spells, which are really only good when you also have a swordie in your party to gather and manage the mob for you, because pissing off multiple things by yourself on a squishy wizzie is generally a bad idea if they’re still over 60% HP after you hit them.
A competent swordie playing rps wins over a wizzie hands down unless it’s one of those magic-damage-only bosses (specter and that grim reaper boss in tenet garden are the first two that come to mind).
To me personally, SP on wiz isn’t a real problem if u manage ur stats well and with pots and bonfire. The real problem is dieing too easily to monsters when you aggro them too much. Especially archer-type monsters with multi shots, imagine 3-5 “Pond” from the Chapel 1F and their projectiles on the ground. Way too annoying.
If you have play melee, we melee player have to carry one +5 sword, one +5 mace, one +5 spear and even one +5 shield. If we don’t, our damage will tank, for example, Str Cleric dmg will drop from 200 to 50 damage!
A wizard only have to carry one +5 rod to play the game. Same as archer.
Once you go to the higher level, you will want 2 set of weapons for grinding or you will have to head to town often, which is where squire really shine with its weapon repair skill to restore dur past the maximum amount. For melee, the cause of carrying 6 weapon is insanely expensive, where your wizard is suppose to use those surplus of money on potion as a gold sink to balance out the cost of maintaining the class. Melee have to use what extra money on hp potions, which is why they need healer. we grind on monster up to 8 level lower to kill faster without getting hit too much in order to get equipments to sell for money.
The way I handle my SP cost on my cleric is to gather a small crowd of mob and fight them. If possible, I try to fight 2 mobs at the same time.
I have to help my teammates, while I spam deprotect zone, and using safety zone when dealing with 3+ mobs at a time. having a priest and pyromancer in n the party to use blessing, holy enchant, and fire enchant together allow me to be compotent in my damage at level 40s. It also save me from requiring to spam deprotect.
If wizard don’t know how deprotect works, it stack the affect each time the caster attack the target. a target with 1 stack of deprotect damage does 0 extra damage. it take 3 hits for my pure str cleric dmg increase to 25 additional damage which is very small. This is with Level 24 Deprotect Zone: Enhance attribute! The skill only shines in very long fight suck as boss fight, where I can stack it up to ~24 to 39 depending on if I have to move around from getting knock out of my safety zone. On boss that move around a lot, forget about even getting more than a dozen hits.
I have to disagree on Archer part.
Archer’s AA are weak. Ntm its single-target. I also had to spam skills but bonfire did the trick once I ran out of pots.
As a wizard/pyro/linker, in parties we had something like :
1/ Cast your spell
2/ Sit next to bonfire waiting for CD (around 10/15 secondes) or get interrupted by a monster
3/ Get up and go back to step 1
The team never ran out of SP, a bonfire cost 50 silver and benefits for everyone.
So I actually like how SP regen is, it promotes partying.
I don’t know how other class work though so maybe this strategy isn’t applicable but generally, I think it is better how it is now
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I agree, I played a pyromancer till about lvl 36, I had about 46 int and around 20 Spr. My SP regen was not good and nor was my SP pool improving in anyway. I urge the dev team to at least improve the sp regen rate for wizzards in a way where we can use our skills more often without having to be poor for a good part of the game.
I don’t get you people that say “just use sp potions, man, it’s not that expensive”. Huh? What? Huh? The cost isn’t the problem. You can only use sp potions so much before you’re back to resorting to auto attacks and as an archer, your auto attacks don’t do crap for damage, unless you’re doing the Kneeling Shot, but for some reason they decided to not let you gain sp over time while using it.
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25 base SPR, had 8 from a necklace too. Level 10 cloth mastery.
My SP was fine by that point. I’ll probably get cloth mastery sooner and less SPR in later cbts on mages and see how that goes.
I think this happens in every mmo, mage always have a slow start compared to others, but then they’ll be really strong in the late game without the top gear meele classes will need.
40 spr cyro plate hahahaha , enchant fire too op my party addicted to it, especialy cleric and swordman who do the smack. But yeah, if you are good friend with bonfire and have good party that capable cover each other alternately while another sit and regen, high SPR not really nessesary, 10 already enough, most prolly 20 for caster cleric and wizard with good “sit” management. you got your archer and swordman buddy cover for return you keeping them alive and buff. (and yes, i talk about how wizard buffing too)
also, actually, there’s regen SP overtime, just it isnt continiously, instead, periodicaly for certain amount depend on spr. sit and bonfire cut down the “cooldown” for it. and yeah, since Kneeling isnt Sit , so it count as standing regen.
I ran a Cleric->Priest with my Wizard->Cryomancer friend, and we had one of her friends be our tank. I wasn’t spamming my spells as often as her or anything, but I was going about 2/1 int/spr so I had a decent pool, and she would run out so fast. I mean, all her damage is based off her spells, which sucks, but what really sucks is that wizards have to spend most of their money
I was able to, in boss fights, spam my spells pretty decently without having to use too many mana pots, where as the wizard had to spam mana pots and their spells. I feel like their autos aren’t too strong so almost all their damage comes from their mana. I’d really love a level 1 wizard skill that increases their mana regen or allows them to regen more often. It’d be REALLY nice. Or maybe have that be the cloth system instead of bonus sp/recov. Just have it increase how often or something. That’d be REALLY nice.
Just reporting my experience as level 64 (Wizard->Pyromancer->Psychokino):
My Attributes
Coasts with consumables:
I always try to carry 40 small SP pots, 10-15 regular SP pots + 10-15 regular HP pots and 15-30 firewood. Not to mention 1k repair coast.
I could, during my playthrough, keep this stock of recovery items most of the time! But I that’s just it, it was pretty rare to have additional money to buy attributes or refine my gear. Those rare situations were whenever I dropped a lot of gear/recipes to sell on NPCs or when I sold other class weapons on the market/auction.
Situations with SP issues:
I tried to play solo most of the time, but I also played in a lot of parties on different situations.
Let’s first talk of situations when I had no SP issues: Simple quest that required me to collect something or kill a number of mobs, those could be done solo and with no SP issue whatsoever. Provided that you rested before and had full SP before attempting to do them, bonfires help A LOT to restore your HP and SP in those situations.
Now let me detail situations where I had issues with SP.
1 - ) Killing Quest Bosses :
SOLO - Killing quest bosses solo was really hard specially past level 35-40. You can easily kill them, but you it takes a lot of time (15-30 minutes), and a lot of SP recovery items (half or sometimes my full stock of items). When you are attempting solo you don’t can’t use firewood to help since you barely have time to sit down.
Overall bosses have a LOT of health,so you need to use a lot of SKILLS to do enough damage to kill them, which requires a lot of SP. And given the current CBT exp rates, they were also likely 10 levels higher than you.
Since I was a Psychokino my primary damaging skill was Psychic Pressure, it did a lot of damage but, as you know, it drains percentage SP per second of use. So when I had opportunity to use this skill uninterrupted I would have to recover all my SP from scratch.
On higher levels, at some bosses you could die a lot if hit even once. Whenever you die, even if you have 0 SP, if you resurrect using the 1 iCoin your SP is recover to 50%. This helped a lot in killing bosses.
PARTY - Killing boss in party were 3 times faster, you still run out of SP mostly because the bosses were higher level than you and had a lot of HP. But recovering was easier. Your group could get boss aggro and you could use bonfires to help in the recovery.
2 - ) 5 Member Party Grinding for EXP :
Griding was a task that would completely deplete your SP if you didn’t used your resources wisely. You need to use pots as soon as they come back from cooldown. You should also use a bonfire and sit when your AoE skills are in cooldown.
Skills that have single target, or do little damage should not be used at all to preserve SP. In my case those were Magic Missile and Earthquake.
From Psychokino class Psychic Pressure was really bad in such situation because it drained too much SP, but sometimes you had to use to kill large quantities of mobs that nobody else could kill at the time. Telekinesis also did little damage, even when smashing the grabbed target on mobs, so it was of no use.
The most useful skills that I used often were Pyromancer Fireball and Firewall.
Also, the task of killing mobs of monsters could be really IMPROVED by having a Peltasta with max level Swash Buckiling. It was so gratifying and easier that it is a MUST HAVE in your grinding party. Linkers also help in grinding, but not as much as Peltasta.
Suggestion and Possible Problems:
The coast of SP recovery items is fine, but they don’t give enough mana to Wizard type classes.
They should give more SP per second, but this could break the balance when used by Swordsman or Archer Classes. Since those classes have different mana pools than wizard and cleric type.
I suggest that you change SP recovery items so that they recover more if you are from Wizard class. I can’t speak for Cleric because I didn’t played them enough to understand if they have mana issues or not.
EDIT: @abluejelly mention something that could be a good solution. We could make SP recovery items scale with your character INT instead of making certain class recover more from SP pots.
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+1
RO was dreadfully slow without SP items to boost your longevity, especially as a mage (unless you got increase SP regen passive).
SP items were cheap though as long as you avoided blue pots
Grape juice errday
It was my lifeblood
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You do realize that
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Wizzie’s spending the money you spent on enhancements on mana pots, and then some. Regardless of that, enhancements is a one-time investment, which means you just need to stage your gear correctly and you won’t have money problems because of it. And because of the reduced downtime, you’ll have a very steady income on Swordie anyways.
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Wizzie’s probably going to want a +5 rod/shield and a +5 staff later (with just +5 staff early on)
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Wizzie’s weapon degrades with spell casts just like your degrades with attacks. Sure it’s slower (bigger hits, slower aspd), but it’s still dura degrade on attack
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You’re splitting your dura degrade over 3 weapons, not all on 1, so the degrade rate (which is already fairly slow unless you’re dying all the time) is actually a lot slower than you think.
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Repairs are flat, not scaled to dura missing, so managing your dura “properly” (ie: only repairing when shit’s about to break) makes your dura cost really negligible compared to income.
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+50% damage on 3 out of 4 possible situations is hella strong when the wizzie’s trapped to that base damage only rate.
Wat. SP was int scaled, and matk was int scaled. Unless you were in a WoE build, SP was only a problem if when over 50% weight. And over 50% weight, my main (bolter/sp prof) never had mana problems basically ever. I had a vitata card lol.
But focusing on under 50% weight…
My Esma Linker had very few mana problems and I was eswoo/estin tanking and using high jump relatively often.
My retwoe wiz had minor mana issues in extended parties if the priest didn’t have magni-cat or we lacked a dancer / bard+link / prof.
My Priest also had no mana issues once she reached priest. I had magni-cat like anyone who wasn’t a noob (shots fired). Acolyte though, was suffering. Why are there so many mimics in Glast Heim ._.
The main difference between RO and ToS SP is that casters aren’t MAD (multiple attribute dependent) damage & mana (int) and cast speed (dex), they’re MAD damage (int) vs mana (spr) with constant cast speed.
While that change itself is perfectly fine, the scaling drives the problem ToS is having.
Mana regen is x+b
Mana pool is ax+b (seemingly, anyways)
Mana costs are ax+b
Regen doesn’t scale with your pool size or your mana costs. Thus, your mana pool size is fine for your spell costs, but regen lags waaaaay behind and you get your wizie mana problems.
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I also noticed that…