Tree of Savior Forum

[Review][Mini-Guide] Swordsman: All classes and best builds

Class and Rank
#99

@xechidna

Don’t worry about that. This is good discussion.

You present your points, I present mines, if in the end we can’t come up to an agreement then you will go with the build you feel most comfortable with and that is perfectly fine. The important thing is that you have a build that you enjoy and can have the most fun out of when playing this game.

It is also good keeping it in this thread, as everyone else can see both perspectives we have on how to build a Fencer, they can see the advantages and disadvantages or choosing a build over another, and come with a conclusion of their own.

Or why not, someone else coming in with perhaps another perspective we didn’t consider and enriches the discussion with it.

In the end, everyone wins.

Well, if you are already planning on having a high DPS (Corsair C2+) character, then you don’t have to worry about world bosses with your Fencer (Quest bosses will die to any build, they are really easy).

Then just focus around PvE and PvP, and if in the end Highlander is the better choice for you, then that is a great build to have for a Fencer.

Lunge’s effect depends on the opponent’s armor type, the increase in damage can go from 50% to 100% (double damage).

#100

@Cathexis
+100% sounds delicious~
Lol.

I do think that Barb fencer is probably equally as powerful in pvp.
It does have stuns out the ass and good high dmg low start up skills.
But I think Barb is better suited with Rodel then Paltas problem is that Barb is rank3 not 2 so that’s one rank later that you can pick up Rodel meaning you can’t get Fencer until 7…
And c2 fencer is IMO too good not to have.

In the end it’s stuns and unconditional dmg Vs utility and disables…
And it’s a tough choice…

#101

My bad if it’s been asked before but, does Barb’s “Stomping Kick” activate when Hoplite’s “Long Stride” skill is used?

#102

@forgamin_dd
Stomping kick is an active skill that can only be used in the air there’s no “activation” unless you press the hotkey for it.
I’ve not tested it, but I don’t think you can use stoping kick in the long stride animation

#103

I was playing cata, and I disagree with your evaluation.

It should be like
Circle 1: Terrible (1/10)
Circle 2: Bad (5/10)
Circle 3: Terrible (1/10)

Even considering reduced cd and cast while moving.

c1:
impaler - fun skill with terrible damage, but only use is to temporary disable monster.
earth wave lv5 - have nice dmg, but still too weak
trot lv5 - complete garbage. Dashing is much faster. Trot is a bit faster, but dashing have no cd.
steed charge lv5 - pathetic damage, pathetic range.

c2:
impaler lv10 - damage goes from terrible to bad
earth wave lv10 - very good damage, only good skill in cata, and it is good only on c2+
trot lv10 - yay! at last you can move at the same average speed as dashing.
doom spike lv5 - wtf is this? AA does more damage.

c3:
impaler lv15 - don’t even bother, still too weak
earth wave lv15 - still, very good damage
trot lv15 - at last you can move faster than dashing
doom spike lv10 - damage is better than AA, but not much, aoe is too narrow.
rush lv5 - COMPLETE AND UTTER GARBAGE. terrible damage, cd of meteor (ok, now is not that high), sp cost of energy blast (yes, is consumes sp as you use it). Its attack speed is so low, that you can trot past monster and don’t even hit it.

Maybe cata is good for PVP, but i will not recommend going cata for PVE.

And don’t forget that it is almost impossible to mount after resurrection, or sometimes after changing map when monster already stunned your pet, but you still watching loading screen.

#104

@forgamin_dd

You can’t use any skill during Long Stride’s animation.

So I got this question, and asked if it would be fine to post it on this thread, as I feel it would help anyone who is wondering about this too:

@xechidna

Short answer:

Frenzy isn’t that good considering that you need to get up to Rank 6 to get a Hoplite C2->Barbarian C2 build, and at that point you have much better options available to you. Even then, you can only get C3 of either of them (to get the most of it), and at that point you are already sacrificing your Rank 7 choice, and if you try to get C3 for both, then you will also sacrifice your Rank 8 class.

In the end you sacrifice A LOT and end up losing value in your build anyways. It is terrible for damage output.

Long answer:

It is generally bad to mix multiple low rank classes in one build. Even though in theory they might seem to have good synergy, in practice it is not the case.

Let’s start by breaking the build down by parts:

Goal: Auto-attack based, damage oriented build.

Classes: Swordsman->Peltasta-> Hoplite C2/C3 + Barbarian C2/C3

Proposition: Barbarian provides Frenzy, which increases Physical Attack by stacking buff counts when using auto-attacks. Hoplite is a great auto-attacking class, so it could benefit from using Frenzy, plus the Barbarian skills are universal and can be used with a spear, so that is a great bonus.

  • Hoplite:
  • Great auto-attacking class due to the efficiency of it’s build by using Finestra.
  • Even though the efficiency of this class starts at C2, it maximizes at C3.
  • Barbarian:
  • Frenzy is available from C2, with 10 stacks it gives up to +150 Attack for 40 seconds and a 90 seconds cool-down (44.4% up-time)
  • Frenzy at C3 increases to 20 stacks, giving up to +400 Attack for 50 seconds and a 90 seconds cool-down (55.5% up-time).

Analysis:

Ok, the first thing that comes to mind is the obvious down-time that Frenzy has, and an auto-attacking build prides itself on having no down-time, so it is already looking a little bit shaky. But ok, let’s assume that we could use Frenzy to get a nice boost to Attack to use during certain scenarios (bosses for example).

With this, let’s look at the possible build paths:

  • Swordsman->Peltasta->Hoplite C2->Barbarian C3
  • Swordsman->Peltasta->Hoplite C3->Barbarian C2
  • Swordsman->Peltasta->Hoplite C2->Barbarian C2->Anything

This is as far as it goes (Rank 7), you could get C3 for both of them at Rank 8, that way you get maximum efficiency from Hoplite and max level Frenzy from Barbarian.

Frenzy at level 5 only gives you up to +150 Attack, which to be honest is nothing at Rank 6+. While Frenzy at level 10 gives you up to +400 Attack, which is nice but consider this:

At Rank 6 you could get either:

  • Corsair C2: Double Weapon Assault will help an auto-attacking build a lot more than Frenzy will and it has a 44 seconds duration with 52 seconds cool-down (84.6% up-time), already matching and surpassing Frenzy on that aspect. Sure, DWA uses 2 stamina per hit but using pills you can use it for a very long time, and even then your DPS output further increases by using Hexen Dropper.
  • Doppelsoeldner: Cyclone just destroys the competition when it comes to dealing damage, so the proposed build already lost. But since we are only talking about auto-attacks then let’s be fair. Deeds of Valor increases Attack by up to +50% for 35 seconds with a 43 seconds cool-down (81.3% up-time), and by using the efficiency of a Hoplite C3 build, that is gonna be way more +Attack than 20 stacks of level 10 Frenzy. Plus, Deeds of Valor also keeps on scaling, as you get better equipment and more stats.

So on either case, Frenzy gets heavily outclassed by the competition.

One could argue about the benefits of the rest of the Barbarian kit, but the main reason to mix those two classes in the first place was for the auto-attacks. Since that part failed, the build will already never be as good as any of the efficient options out there.

It is not even top 5 in best auto-attacking builds.

In the end and in my opinion:

Tree of Savior is not built to mix low rank classes (for the Swordsman tree, other trees might be more flexible, like Wizard). To get an efficient build always move forward and never look back.

[Guide] Swordsman's Battle Manual (All classes) - By Cathexis
#105

help me out too, i need guidance from a swordie connoisseur such as yourself :smiley:

dont know if youve seen my thread

the build im going with uses alot of lower class ranks, i designed it to focus on skyliner to fill out hoplites long downtimes on their spells, and to replace its auto attacks
i say this in my edit, but im considering going for dragoon or cata at R7 to use 2hand spears and elevate skyliners dps, but i dont know if i should stay with hop C3 or take Pelt C1 + Hop C2

another build ive also had in my head is
Pelt C1 > Barb C3 > Fencer C1 > Doppel C1
what are your thoughts?

fencer is used to give barb and doppel a filler during their CD’s much like highlander C2, but its pigeon holed into using rapiers and the sp cost of falconade is ridiculous.
pelt is there because its pelt XD

#106

@Cathexis
I have to disagree with being behind in ranks if you c3 them both.
Dragoon is not required on an auto attack build, and there’s no reason to Templar if you don’t want to be a guild master (maybe?.. I personally wouldn’t)
Idk about shinobi
So you would be done by the time your ready to hit rank 8.
(And hope it has a good synergy class for this build)

But I see your point in the build being weak in the leveling process.

I guess I’ll be making a Hop 2+Corsair 2 instead XD
Or Barb 3+Corsair 2
who knows!~

I would corsair 3 but I don’t think it’s worth it just for a pistol…

#107

@xechidna

It wouldn’t be that way, because you need 8 ranks to get both to C3 (you can’t take Hoplite or Barbarian until Rank 3):

Swordsman->Peltasta->Hoplite C3->Barbarian C3. That is 8 ranks, so even though we don’t know the skills of the Rank 8 classes, you wouldn’t be able to select any of those.

But even then, that Rank 8 build will still be weaker compared to those other Rank 6 builds. Overall it is a terrible build for auto-attacks.

And I also don’t think Corsair C3 is worth it in it’s current state. Maybe it gets buffed in the future, but if that is not the case I think getting one circle of Doppel is a lot better for an auto-attack build.

@yodish92

Right now I think that any build that relies on a 0 cd Sky Liner should tread carefully. I could easily see that get nerfed in the future.

For the kobt, sure, go wild. If you take Peltasta your build will be weaker than other builds in terms of damage output at Rank 7, and if you don’t take Peltasta you could be up there with the big players, but you are not going to have Swash Buckling and all the other benefits it gives (for this I would choose Doppel or Dragoon, not Cata).

It is a solid build, especially for getting to Rank 7, but once it gets there I think that there are stronger builds out there.

Also, IF during the kobt they nerf Sky Liner, then your build just gets destroyed.

For the future, I would wait until just before the international open beta or release starts for deciding on any build, as anything could change until then.

#108

yea skyliner is hella strong for its sp cost, the T0 modifier on bleed is just insane, im hoping thats the only thing they will nerf, without it skyliner is alright i think, it will just turn into a shitty double punch with more aoe lol

as for dps, by big players your probably thinking of doppel C2 with 2 handed swords or something right xD, too meta for me lol
i could go Hop C2 > Doppel C2
for insane damage all day everyday, but ill be stuck with 1 handers
or Hop C2 > Dopel C1 > Dragoon C1
for straight up murder.

i wish i could go crazy but kOBT is so slow lol, i cant fund alts
i need me a kTEST account =/

#109

Well, I mean mostly if they go after the 0 CD and remove that, then the entire build just falls apart. As long as it has the 0 CD I think it will be fine.

The problem with Doppel C2 is that the new skills are limited to 2H Swords only and if you swap to that from a spear, then you are going to lose the Finestra buff. Sure, you could get Cyclone and Deeds of Valor level 10 only, which is also a pretty good option, but I feel it would kind of be a waste to not take full advantage of everything that class can give you.

By big players I do mean Doppel C2, Corsair C2 and Fencer builds.

Let’s say that you do instead take Hoplite C2 for something else to deal more damage, then you would still not have Peltasta while those other builds will have it.

Even though at Rank 7 there will be stronger builds, it doesn’t mean that this build would be that far behind, I think it is fine as long as the 0 CD on Sky Liner is a thing. If I had to put it on a “Tier” on my list, it would be “Tier 2” (second best tier), at Rank 7. Maybe lower at “Tier 3”, since we don’t exactly know what level 200+ looks like, if Peltasta becomes even more important (lots of grinding), then it certainly would go down.

This is why I prefer to wait until the balance changes calm down before start planning on any builds for Rank 7+. Look at kobt, there is a maintenance almost every day and lots of changes going on around, I am sure there are going to be more changes once people reach Rank 7 and start playing around with the new classes.

They could nerf Sky Liner, or they could remove the Doppel C2 skills restriction of 2H Swords, or any other change.

#110

hmm oke, thanks for the input im just a big fan of spear wielding and i like to spam cool looking skills over auto attacks lol, reealy hoping skyliner doesnt get its cd back, it opens up alot of possiblites which i think they want for all the classes

i get your point about being prudent and waiting it out for buffs/nerfs
but as a D2 and Poe player i cant resist theorycraft lol
when is saw all the possibilities for skyliner i had one of those “urge to build rising” moments

#111

Yeah, for now just have fun with it and enjoy this build. We will see what happens in the future, no need to worry about that until/if it happens.

#112

@Cathexis

Why?..
IMO that’s really the only way Highlander could keep up in dmg compared to other classes.
The 0 cd Skyliner had its dmg nerfed making it only 450 per attack at max.
And let’s be honest, nothing else it has is THAT great…
Maybe cross slash.
But everything else has a long cool down.
Even cross slash after you’ve used its overheat up…
And you get more dmg and survivability out of spamming a lunged Flanconnade.
Unless you lunge -> cross slash -> Skyliner and even then you only get 2-3 OP skyliners out before lunge’s debuff is over…
Then your back to getting more dmg from Flanconnade

And from my experience with Dopple and a c3 highlander.
Most things after Mage tower can’t bleed…
Making highlander EXTREMELY weak

Also since there’s nothing at rank 7 for a Hoplite+Corsair besides dragoon (which I personally don’t want)
You think it’s a bad idea to c1 Dopple at rank 7 just for the cyclone and DOV?
Or should I take dragoon? :confused:

#113

falconade is pigeon holed into rapiers
skyliner is versatile, it has no weapon restrictions and you can get it early

also the sp cost of falconade makes it far more expensive to upkeep as a regular spam ability than skyliner
in terms of efficiency skyliner wins out, lets take both at level 5
skyliner is 36 damage per sp spent
falconade is 15.6 damage per sp spent
using a simple forumla of:
(base damage x 2) / sp cost

realistically i dont think anyone would be willing to stretch falconade to lvl 10-15 with the sp cost ramping up to a whopping 73-94 even at lvl 5 its 52 sp per cast which is difficult if you have no alchemist to supply you with pots or if you dont take any spr, it only gains very little efficient damage per sp spent, skyliner at lvl 10 actually drops in efficiency but its still far superior to lvl 6 falconade, both have almost the same base damage, but one uses 26 sp and the other 57. sure falconade can increase in levels but at what cost?

falconade is not bad by any means though, at higher levels its better for burst damage and mixing in auto attacks, but it should not be treated as a replacement for them if your willing to give it more than 1 level, you will burst very hard, but in a sustained fight and grinding scenarios your sp will be drained extremely quickly, a typical swordie sp pool of 1-2k can scarecly cast higher levels of falconade enough, even if your using strong sp pots, it becomes inefficient if the regen cannot be used to its fullest with a small sp pool

to sustain the absurd costs youd have to have 50-100x the sp cost of the skill as sp and enough regen to use all your other skills if your gonna use it for spamming, its not like oblique shot is for archers and now skyliner for swordies,

T0 modifier from bleed is actually immense, it nearly triples the individual damage of each hit
the lunge bonus from falconade is a T3 modifier, much like hoplites spear lunge.
anyway both of them use debuffs to boost damage and both debuffs can miss, so its much better to compare them as individuals rather than skills boosted by debuffs
for damage mods and damage calculations refer to this thread

#114

Most people I’ve seen are willing to do that, 94 mana is not THAT much.
And it’s much better then auto attacking on. Fencer.
All you need to up keep falconade spam is like 30 SPR that’s all I needed in CBT.
There’s also gear and gems… Mana costs aren’t that big a deal honestly.

falconade is one the best Fencer skills I’m certainly willing to max it~
There’s nothing else besides lunge worth maxing anyway.

#115

yep thats at lvl 5 your still sacrificing that 30 spr for 30 str, lets not forget your using rapiers over 2handed sword/spears with it too
i know you love fencers but if you look at the raw numbers skyliner is clearly better for the purpose of spamming
94 sp is a massive deal imo dont know if youve played archers but the sp cost on oblique shot was one of the major issues they had.
anways heres another comparison using sp efficiency.
940 sp for 10 casts comes out at 16380 damage on a lvl 15 falconade
936 sp for 36 casts comes out at 32400 damage on lvl 10 skyliner

like i said falconade wins out for straight up burst damage but in a sustained fight, like world bosses it just wont hold up and your spending more money for stronger pots using a weaker weapon, by all means stick with falconade its very clear you love the fencer class. all i can say is, at least adress its caveats, dont think i have anything more to prove.

#116

It is too cost-efficient right now.

I don’t think it is OP, but it is one of the most cost-efficient ways to deal damage right now, especially for a skill that you get at Rank 3. When you put it in the context of the entire Swordsman tree, even if it falls off at higher levels, it will still be able to match other damage-dealing methods out there while using less resources than them. Not to even mention the 100% up-time availability.

To make it fair, Sky Liner has to use more resources or deal less damage so it isn’t as cost-efficient, or they have to remove the 0 CD thing.

Since it already deals low damage and the only way to amplify that is through Bleeding, I think the best ways to approach it is:

  • Reduce it from 2 hits, to only 1
  • Remove the 0 CD and go back to overheat
  • Greatly increase it’s SP cost

Either of those options would make it a fair skill.

@xechidna @yodish92

For the Fencer build, I would never make a Highlander+Fencer build.

Flanconnade is one of the best skills in the Fencer class, I always make sure to max that one. I also almost never used auto-attacks on Fencer since they are pretty weak and it is just better to use the skills in the kit.

EDIT:

Doppelsoeldner C1 is really strong and will make any build better. So yes, it is a good option if you don’t want to take Dragoon.

#117

yea higlander + fencer is counter intuitive, fencer is better paired with barb or peltasta
lower levels of falconade can be spammed, but at the upper levels i just dont think it will be as efficient, you’ll have to stack lots of spr and sacrifice str for the 73-94 mana cost, while chugging high lvl alch pots for days

i think they will excel at the 3 star maps with tough mobs, while rolling in a party
i guess we will see when some one makes it to C2 fencer.

#118

@yodish92
Again it only takes 30spr to spam it for ever.
30 SPR is easy to reach.
Your not losing any STR and even if you were 30 STR is not a lot…

In fact on fencer specifically I like to build DEX2 STR1 and SPR every 10 lvl until you have 30 SPR.
Alternatively you could use gear that increases SPR or gear that increases crit dmg if STR is THAT important to you.

@Cathexis
I’m not saying that i’ed ever use highlander + Fencer I’m just saying that Skyliner is not the End-All of OP skills.
It’s not even close…
There ARE other options out there is what I’m saying.
And, IMO it’s really the only way highlander can keep up in dmg to the other classes.

Everyone I see is making this out to be the new mega OP skill of the century and I’m tired of it is all