[PvP] Crowd control and diminishing returns

[Pinky]

PvP is back, and this is what we know right now about crowd control effects.
It only applies to PvP so you can just ignore this stuff for PvE.

Credit goes to @LunarRabbit for digging up the file from xml.ipf/DiminishingReturns/DiminishingReturns.xml and @Wolfy for helping me analyze it.
Also thanks to @arkgolf for finding a possibly more updated version of the code from ktos.

You can get the untranslated xml file DiminishingReturns.xml (9.6 KB), but you can also find a google translated one for ease of viewing here.
We already know most of it from what we’ve seen from IMC, but the code has more details that are important to those who are into PvP.
We’ve done some testing and the results seem to match the code so far.

Summary

• Each application of CC will add a 30% reduction to the duration of the next one.
  This means the first CC will be at 100% duration, then 70%, then 49%, and so on.

• After the diminishing effect is applied 4 times, the target becomes IMMUNE instead.

• CC duration cannot go below 1 second even with this scaling, unless it goes to immunity.
  This rule does not apply to Magnetic Force.

• Diminishing duration/immunity will reset back to 100% after 45 seconds from the first CC application.

• CC effects are grouped by types, which are independently tracked for diminishing duration/immunity/reset timer.
  For example, a target already immune to freeze is not immune to knockdowns.

CC categories

Group 1 (Freeze)

• Cryomancer Freeze
• Freeze
• Frost Pillar (has a special rule that its effects do not diminish within the same cast)

Group 2 (Stuns)

• Restrain
• Stun

Group 3 (Holds)

• Magnetic Force (can go below 1s minimum)
• Snow Rolling
• Possession
• Dethrone
• Raise (Initial tests have shown that Raise does not get diminished, needs further testing)
• Arrest
• Iron Hook
• Stop
• Swap Bind
• Retrieve
• Coursing (this hurts Hunter DPS a ton)
• Impaler
• Telepath

Group 4 (Special)

• Joust’s Silence (“JoustSilence_Debuff”)
• Headshot (“Musketeer Head Shot Spin”)
  Note: This CC group is vague compared to the others, Joust’s Silence seems to be clear enough, but which part of Headshot is being diminished here is unclear. Both skills inflict a Shock effect (reduce INT/SPR) but Headshot has a knockback/spin effect. One theory is that it’s referring to the spin that’s part of the skill, and is somehow grouped apart from normal knockdown/back. Other spin effects like Dust Devil/Feint/Shield Shove are not referenced here, and are probably unaffected. Needs testing.

Group 5 (Knockdowns)

• Knockdown
• Knockback

Group 6 (Sleep)

• Sleep

All other CCs not listed here are not affected by diminishing returns, such as Slow.

I encourage people to test things out themselves so we have a good feel of the system.

[BurningFighter]

So its like if a player get Immuned to 1 group of CC, any other player’s CC will also be neutralised as long as it is of same group?

[Pinky]

Yes.
The scaling tracks the target and CC category, not the source.

[Satoru]

So, since MF and Raise are in the same group, the usual Kino combo will now make Raise only last for 5s if no other “hold” CC was used before MF?

Also, will PP be dimished by itself?

[Tappity]

Retrieve
Coursing (this hurts Hunter DPS a ton)

Now, if anyone is wondering how ridiculous it is for a hunter, here’s a video:

[leozimfel]

Problably hunter will be changed on this new balancing.

[merrieta01]

Hovering from Falco c1? is in the Knockdown category maybe?

[RyogoKusama]

I think Group 4 is not about a “Silence Status” but it may refer to “Shock Status”, because both Joust (Lancer) and Headshot (Musketeer) decrease the target INT and SPR when hit with those abilities.

https://tos.neet.tv/skills/11603

https://tos.neet.tv/skills/31202

This is only a wild guess tho, because there are other abilities in-game with the same effect (Divine Machine Arrow from Fletcher, Zhornau from Doppel, Dragon Soar from Dragoon) not listed in that group.

[Pinky]

So, since MF and Raise are in the same group, the usual Kino combo will now make Raise only last for 5s if no other “hold” CC was used before MF?

Ok, I managed to find a Cryo3Kino3, and the tests came out weird.
MF, Snow Rolling, and Raise are definitely in the same CC category.
MF and Snow Rolling were being properly diminished with previous casts (including Raise), letting me walk out of them much sooner.
But Raise wasn’t getting its duration reduced at all, it still had its full effect even after MF/Snow Rolling.
Raise needs more testing to see if it’s really bugged.

Also, will PP be dimished by itself?

The stuns should be subject to diminishing returns, after 4 or so stuns the target should be immune (duration won’t go below 1 second though).
Haven’t tested that yet, I don’t have a Kino3 (the CryoKino I found had reset skills and didn’t have max PP).

Hovering from Falco c1? is in the Knockdown category maybe?

Yes, it’s knockdown. I mained a PvP Falc3, this is bad news for the build, since chain-bounce will be limited to 4ish bounces before they break out of it.

I think Group 4 is not about a “Silence Status” but it may refer to “Shock Status”, because both Joust (Lancer) and Headshot (Musketeer) decrease the target INT and SPR when hit with those abilities.

Yeah that seems logical, though the code referring to Joust is “JoustSilence_Debuff”.
IF Headshot’s Shock also prevented people from using skills, then it would make a lot more sense (does it? I don’t have a Musk).

---

If you have made tests of you own, post about them here!
There’s so much stuff that needs to be confirmed.

[KingsSoul]

Good riddance. You know hunters were op…
I was one myself and stopped playing it because of how op it was.

[Tappity]

Hmm, I would say they’re strong, but with many counters in PvP previously.
Nowhere near as OP as the meta PvP class builds.

My main issue with this is that hunters are relatively useless for anything aside from Growling at hunter3 with this change.
Investing 3 ranks into a class for the sake of one skill for afking more floors at ET doesn’t sound very balanced.

[UselessBug]

Sorry, but they stopped being op coursing and retrieves duration were cut down to 5 seconds and TBL kept the half duration rule making it 2.5 seconds, also IMC never bothered to fix coursing not working on mounted targets.

anyway are Murm’s headbutt and hackapelle’s cavalry charge in any group catagory?

[Pinky]

anyway are Murm’s headbutt and hackapelle’s cavalry charge in any group catagory?

If you mean Headbutt stun, then it should fall under Stun.
Cavalry Charge has a sort of turnaround effect right?
Not sure if that falls under any group, same with Dust Devil.
Those need to be tested.

Headbutt’s strike debuff or Cavalry Charge’s crit debuff shouldn’t be affected at all.

[celticross676]

Ridiculous? That seems like a good change. Just cause you can’t cheese your way to perma cc people and have to rely on timing and combos now.

[ZeroFoxGiven]

[Tappity]

Uhh, you did have to rely on timing and combos as a hunter post-balance patch.
Perma-CC would be possible in a 1v1, with perfect timing, but that’s pretty much the class’s speciality.
Hunters can be dealt with relatively easily with proper strategy unless you’re one of those classes it’s meant to hard counter.

Balancing for 1v1 is honestly impossible, so I would recommend against looking at this change in isolation.
It causes hunters to be able to CC for ~5s once (using 3 skills), lose that and all significant damage sources for 45s afterwards, and nullify other better sources of binds for the hunter’s team.
In certain cases, a hunter in TBL could be actually hurt the team more than help.

Most of what I wrote a year ago is still relevant:

How come hunters don't rule PvP?

Firstly, the rankings won't show you Hunter icons. There's nearly no one taking Hunter at R7 or R8 (R6 and below are rarely on the rankings). Hunters have extremely specific builds / roles they are weak or strong against. They are strong against tanks (both evade / def) and characters relying solely on temporal damage / status immunity. They're also relatively strong against anything that relies on melee combat. On the other hand, they are weak against instant nukes, summons (necro, QS, so…

[greyhiem]

IF Headshot’s Shock also prevented people from using skills, then it would make a lot more sense (does it? I don’t have a Musk).

Headshot makes people spin (cannot take any action) and inflicts slight knockback+ knockdown.
It applies INT & SPR reduction, a bleed, and stun (headshot attribute).

[Pinky]

Ok, that makes sense, maybe Headshot’s knockback/spin thing is an already existing entry in their code, unlike knockback/knockdown that had to be added just for this system.
Still weird that it’s not grouped with those though.
Thanks for the info, I’ll update the OP with stuff we’ve found out still then.

[Indygo]

Ok, I managed to find a Cryo3Kino3, and the tests came out weird.

MF, Snow Rolling, and Raise are definitely in the same CC category.

MF and Snow Rolling were being properly diminished with previous casts (including Raise), letting me walk out of them much sooner.

But Raise wasn’t getting its duration reduced at all, it still had its full effect even after MF/Snow Rolling.

Raise needs more testing to see if it’s really bugged.

the raise on F27 (voodoo doll cancer floor) is affected though…you get out of it much sooner, even when its still up

and ye lycan aint immune to headshot…so its just somethin different, i assume?

[Nvictus]

And yet, Psychokino’s Magnetic Force still bugged forcing the 2 which had bump together stucked at the AoE and can only be removed with knockback/knockdown.