Tree of Savior Forum

Policy Update Regarding RMT

I am not avoiding the point.

Why do you keep insisting that players have to purchase weapons from some mysterious source?

WHO is the source?

How many 800m+ weapons are you seeing? I’m pretty surprised here, because even on WHALELAND (Telsiai), the highest weapon i’ve seen went for 600 to 700m (+21 Trans10 Primus 2H Hammer). Most really great gear are never sold. And will never affect the economy.

In fact, +16 Primus weapons go for 40m to 80m and falling (Depending on stat rolls). You can get +11 primus weapons for 4m or less (less than the cost of unidentified, even).

I am defending this because all you people keep throwing around mysterious MULTI BILLION magic items that even I, myself, have not seen. Participate in ‘high-end economy’, you say? You mean crafting +16 weapons yourself?

Edit: And as for ‘catering to all’ - Yeah, sure, just lock all TP items to be non-tradable, account bound. Solves the whole issue of it all, am I right?

FYI - Some of the players with really high-end equipment on Telsiai got all their stuff by farming end-game raids and selling the drops to whales. You should try it sometime.

Edit2: @Aoi_Kanashi Which is what my posts were addressing. And what @woolies post was directing our concerns at. The system isn’t balanced right now.

The cash shop -is- a ‘legal RMT venue’, no matter what you think. Otherwise all items would be character or account bound. The whole point is to change, as per my previous posts, the supplier from RMT to the Game Company (IMC, in this case). And as for conversion rates - most rates were within 10-20% of RMT prices (since they have to drop their price below ‘legal’ rates), NOT 50% like TOS. Something is wrong when it is at a 50% difference.

Things do not exist in a vacuum. The ‘legal’ RMT system -is- competing against the ‘illegal’ one. It is how Steam became so successful. They provided a easy-to-use, one-click location for buying and downloading your games. They provided CONVENIENCE over torrenting / piracy. Sure, there’re still people without, or unwilling to, spend money, but you can’t solve world hunger.

As for examples wise - You don’t use exceptions as an example. Are you going to campaign against Lamborgini, Maserati, or what have you to make their cars accessible to all? Of course not. There will never be more than a few 800m+ items (And most of them are self-crafted).

For silver inflation, once you shut off a faucet/tap from RMT, through market tax controls and other silver sinks the available circulating silver will decrease, forcing prices to fall to equilibrium. That takes time. There is no magic PUSH BUTTON REDUCE PRICE like some of these folks keep thinking.

The whole problem about overinflated prices right now is because of how long the RMT bots (silver faucet) have been running, now we introduce products (TP items, costumes) that will dilute the per-item silver cost.

Oh this is the best part:

Excuse me? In this case, I AM THE SUPPLIER OF DIAMOND ANVILS. Why would I buy them off the market? Where do you think the diamond anvils come from? Some MAGIC player just like your 800m weapons?

PS. I am posting this from the point of view of one of your ‘whales’. I am telling you, that YOUR thinking of how WE spend money, is wrong. You’re telling an elephant that his nose isn’t long, here.

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If you read my posts, i’ve already brought that up.

Clearly not from all the ‘EVIL INFLATION’ ‘BAD PRICES’ and general cheer thinking that prices might actually fall posts from this thread.

FYI, you’re slamming someone who’ve bought much more ‘legal’ RMT items than illegal, here. Most of whatever you say that keeps ‘appearing on the market’ is supplied by players like me. Not by the other ‘whales’ who buy direct silver from RMT. Guess where we spend the money?

Straight from your edit!

We buy… wait for it… TIME! Timelocked items, recipes, Solmiki gear, etc. We do not have time to run all the different raids and farm them multiple times a day.

We trade Money, for Time. F2P players trade Time, for Money.

That is how it works. There is nothing barring other F2P players from participating in the event. If you want to participate in it as a F2P player, you’ll have to come up with TIME. Do not have time? I’m sorry, thats all I can say.

And if the item was priced regularly, I would have bought it as well. You aren’t making any sense here. Regardless of what the item was priced, i’d have bought it. If I didn’t buy it, the person listing the item should have reduced the price. If he/she didn’t, that isn’t my problem, or my fault, is it?

Your argument is that my purchases are affecting other players - guess what, so is yours. If you buy X item, “How are you not affecting other average players by taking the item away from them”.

Edit: And like someone who keeps shouting that if we disagree about RNG cubes we should stop buying them…

You can also stop buying overpriced items? I’m not going to spend my Real Cash exchanged silver on some overpriced junk.

Edit2: Why does everyone keep thinking of ‘buy buy buy’ and getting things off the market? Who are these magical beings that list the items sold, then? AM I BUYING FROM GHOSTS?

And I already said that it’s fine. As long it’s balanced. But the game shouldn’t be centered on you.

Whales shouldn’t be the “who F2P sells items to” nor the high-end community should be only made of $$$ whales.

And that’s how you’re still avoiding the point instead of agreeing or disagreeing with “Cash Shop should give you the possibility to convert money to silver but still should be done in a healthy way”.

Except that you get all items by spending money you got without in-game effort and that’s bad for majority of players. You’re the one not making sense.

Exactly. And that’s where my whole point of “balanced” comes from. If whaling out silver from cash shop allows (note: allowing doesn’t mean you are going to do it) you to have unlimited silver and thus buy all listed items leaving none of that for the other players, something is wrong.

And that’s what happened with AFK Necro when they said “what I buy don’t affect you”, with people on multi-accounts saying “what I buy don’t affect you”. Still affected, it was just a bullshit of an excuse.

I really do not wish ToS going to a future where a “legal RMT whale” will say “what I buy don’t affect you” and end up in the same boat.

Playing dumb doesn’t make your actions fine.

Oh, so you wanted a straight answer even though its already been covered in my previous posts?

YES, I AGREE THAT CASH SHOP SHOULD BE DONE IN A HEALTHY WAY, BUT IT SHOULD ALSO BE COMPETITIVE.

Trying to sell me ‘healthy’ when it is overpriced is not a convincing argument. I’m rich, not stupid.

And this is where you and @Csiko misunderstand things.

If i cash out through the TP store, i’m selling TP items to players like you, average players. Supplying you all with the items that you so dearly want. I am also obtaining silver from OTHER PLAYERS, which does not contribute to the silver faucet (It does not cause silver inflation). Essentially I am trading TP store items for Ingame items. There is no ‘unlimited silver’ faucet from TP purchases.

AFK Necros (and RMT bots) contribute to the silver faucet, because their silver is ‘generated’ from the game, and not already existing in the economy. (This causes inflation - more silver circulation) This is the ‘unlimited silver’ source that has been driving the flat numerical silver value of items up.

In fact, my purchase and subsequent sales of TP items contribute to DEFLATION, because we drain silver out through market taxes, and we do not generate ‘fresh’ silver (like AFK/Bot necros).

Your misunderstanding of how currency (TOS silver, in this case) faucet/taps work, doesn’t make me guilty of anything.

Calling me dumb on top of that takes the cake, really. You place your blame wrongly.

Edit: And as for buying ‘overpriced’ items… like I said, i’m rich, not stupid. Don’t lump me in with ‘whales’ who buy chunks of silver from RMT for trashcan items. Me and a couple others are here trying to help and explain what attracts our purchasing power, and what we, through legitimate means, and overall beneficial to f2p player means, are more than willing to buy.

Edit2: FYI, the ‘whales’ that you and other f2p players that keep screaming at? Those that buy from RMT sites and do not care about the TP store at all? They don’t visit the forums. They aren’t going to make multiple extremely long posts and spend time explaining what we want. Some of us DO care.

These rules are terribly bad. The punishment and way to punish is too weak
Wanna REALLY get rid of it?

  • Strike 1: trade gets traced (to both the buyer and friends/guild), gets the silver taken away and removes token benefits for 1 month
  • Strike 2: all from Strike 1 + Account banned for 1 month, after that andtrade benefits will be taken away for a month right after the temporary ban
  • Strike 3: Perma ban

No, I wanted you not trying to pull strawmans like these:

Unless you’re legit thinking you’re the only one that understands the situation somehow.

Just like you did again:

Not my fault you’re being arrogant and trying to pull strawmans for the sake of it.

And while this is true. P2WIN/unhealthy practices centralizes the remaining silver on whales and moves the silver away from the average player which is just as bad.

The problem might be actually your misunderstanding of English. Just like here:

Where I say: “You’re pretending to not see or understand something.”

And yet:

I have nothing more to say since you’re totally ignoring the case where unhealthy/unbalanced cash shop strategies affects the game in a negative way.

Maybe we can discuss more when you get to learn to read or something. Just don’t push bad suggestions.

Time X Money is fine. Like from the start everyone agrees that more things should be sold.

It starts being bad when the money starts being valued way too much more than the time. Probably also in the opposite, which is what you’re complaining about now.

Getting a balanced solution is the key.

Totally excluding or making average players need 3-6+ months to be able to afford something P2WIN you get easily with money is bad.

Alright, go ahead, which of my suggestions are bad?

Name them.

What unhealthy/unbalanced cash shop strategies. More costumes? Rank resets?

You’re inventing enemies here and pushing your inaccuracies to me.

You mean like my buying of items from FREE TO PLAY PLAYERS, LIKE YOU? That concentrates silver ON ME?

Saying I bring up strawmen arguments when you keep repeating the same things isn’t helping. Trying to find fault in others aren’t helping. Trying to position yourself as some ‘champion of f2p’ isn’t helping.

The same F2P players that spent 3-6+ months running solmiki? Those who just sold me my blank solmiki gear? Or are you telling me they spent the 3-6+ months sitting on their asses not doing anything and expect to be able to afford items?

Edit: Heck, if the same f2p players spent the 3-6+ months running solmiki, they won’t even need to be able to afford them, they’d already have them. Free of charge! Such a surprising thing. Magical, even.

Your suggestions are good. I said that from the start.

I just said to not push bad ones that ends up being unhealthy since for some reason you lack the ability to see the situation from both sides instead of only yours.

If you see no problem in almost all silver in a server being centralized in hands of a few whales, that’s on you, not me.

And buying an item a single time doesn’t means you’re balancing out all the P2WIN stuff you’d sell considering an unhealthy system. It brings the question “how did you even get the silver to afford that to begin with?”

Getting end-game gear with no effort also doesn’t make the game any healthier.

FYI, i’m pretty damn poor silver wise. I don’t know who has all the silver on them, but it ain’t me. That is why i’m selling TP items. I do not know why ANY whale who spend real life cash would want to hoard silver. That’s stupid.

Those hoarding silver most of the time are the F2P players who keep selling farmed items. They never spend the silver because they can farm the gear. You’re directing your dislike in the wrong direction.

Also > P2WIN stuff I sell. Yeah, lets not sell any of them and keep them all out of the hands of the f2p players, right? :tired:

Edit: I essentially spent years as a f2p player, back in early day MMOs. Some of us ain’t shat into money, y’know.

So, why did you say this?

Aren’t you contradicting yourself?

How did whales get the silver to buy the end-game gears in the first place? Magic? No. Cash Shop -> Silver, which is my point.

I also did RMT. I can support you with your statements coz its true.
These people telling Help the devs, HOW? How can someone be stupid spending money which a game dev doesnt do much on improving or eliminating the root cause. Why would I spend 100$ on 20Cubes where i can get 500m on RMT sites. People who doesnt do RMT doesnt know how it works they just keep crying and telling dumb solutions.

Those aren’t the whales that spend real life cash. They just spend all their lives in the game.

Edit: We’re talking people with 20-30+ characters just running the raids.

Edit2: Yeah, Cash shop > Silver > Item. The silver goes back to the f2p players. Not us.

Per my edit earlier before you made this post:

Yeah, Cash shop > Silver > Item. The silver goes back to the f2p players. Not us.

Could even cut out the ‘Silver’ portion and trade Cash Shop items straight for Items. (Other games, not TOS)

Edit: Buying of end-game items is a whole different argument - Can happen even if there was no cash shop in the game.

Even WoW has people selling raid-drop equipment.

That’s why @Veldt original suggestion is great. Having more items to sell means you can circulate more items and Tokens and other type of items can be more affordable. It helps everyone and balances things out.

Yeah, as if those whales only buys and sells things when they’re buying a specific item (some does though).

IMHO that’s fine if the game economy/community defines the price itself. But having IMC as the company and owner of the game putting itself as a “competitor” for “legal RMT” doesn’t sound nice at all. But that’s just what I think.

FYI, the company does not have to advertise itself as a ‘competitor’ (Although some companies do - See EVE-Online. they advertise official, legal, PLEX sales as an easy way to get a head start). But the company has to take it into consideration. I am not saying that your thinking is wrong. It is just an external factor to be considered when running a business.

Edit: Uhh, an analogy would be comparing 2 kinds of breakfast cereal, gotta take into consideration the prices of your competitor, y’know?

And that’s fine if balanced for both sides.

Which is really bad and shouldn’t happen. It’s something I posted earlier as suggestion for STAFF_Yuri to check.

Again, as long it’s balanced and healthy for everyone instead of making a P2WIN hell, that’s great. Also, as long it doesn’t mean an average player needs to spend months to get something you can just play the credit card “card”.

I will have to disagree that f2p player having an avenue to cash out on their time and effort is bad.
You have to give them that option.
I see it as a win win situation for both buyer and seller in additional to the fact that there is no way to stop such things from happening

As for IMC setting prices for their TP items, this wont happen unless they release fixed packages of TP : silver
For Costumes and such prices will eventually be set by the players through natural supply and demand. Again , remove bots that are pushing silvers down is step 1

To be honest that’s about culture. I was from a SEA guild ages ago before SEA server was a thing and I saw many transactions that way. NA isn’t like that, at least not as public.

RMT is plainly against ToS in most games and that includes selling items for real money.

As much it’s a “win win” for the buyer and seller it’s not really “win” for the game.

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