Policy Update Regarding RMT

[Amber_Rei]

Saged and reported /20memes

[Csiko]

[Over.Kill]

Cmon now csiko, surely realize you have no original to compare it to? You’re going on price and + alone, that isn’t going to cut it. Detective work all of a sudden is in the shitter now right?

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaa shades on

[Amber_Rei]

They can appeal via ticket anytime, but if I managed a game I wouldn’t allow all these threads with random crying and complaints about everything and anything. It’s bad advertisement for the game since people are like sheep, who see other people whining and automatically assume the game is bad, then repeat the same stuff like parrots. I’d purge the hell away of cry-cry threads only to keep the constructive criticism.

[_DrRM_]

we both know online game “support” sucks balls, so if anyone ask me I would say PM staff and staff will say go throw your comment to the trashcan aka support

I agree with what you say, but it needs to be more brain than brawn is what am saying…

[Veldt]

RNGesus Tap-Dancing Dice

I get busy for a while and this thread went from remotely relevant RMT discussions to this pile of trash.

You guys give each other cancer.

Edit: After reading the more relevant posts:

Yet facebook 1:1 RMT groups exists and affects economy.

Especially, if you consider what your friend on the topic said, that silver sellers are starting to use 1:1 RMT to try bypass the policy.

These folks (the facebook dudes) aren’t the ‘silver sellers’, mind you.

There are 2 (TWO) kinds of ‘RMT’ that’re present in this game (and other MMOs).

1. Organised ‘Company’ Bot-farms (mostly based in China). This first category are the ones you see on RMT sites (Including the ones that are spammed ingame). They actually have registered companies in China, for the bigger ones (the government wants their cut).
2. Solo sellers (Mainly 3rd world country) folks who’re selling off gear due to either quitting, or lucked out on drops/upgrades and want some easy cash. This second category are the ones you see on facebook

Now, facebook groups, like you said, kill in-game competition in favor of real life currency competition, affects game economy again.

I’m not TOO sure if they’re relevant anywhere else besides the SA server (if any SA players can chime in with details, that’ll be nice). That kind of stuff is more relevant there.

Also, and again, if you just go check the poll I made earlier, just like in the old thread/poll, shows that the older players that are still around are against RMT, even in 1:1 form:

We’re (well, at least I am) somewhat against RMT. Some of us do acknowledge it as a necessary evil in certain cases.

“RMT via TP/gacha” is a misnomer and fabrication used by people who RMT to justify their poor/illegal actions and try to turn the spotlight on the people playing the game legit.

I think another problem here is that for some folks, RMT = 3rd party, while to others, RMT = Spending money on the game, regardless of whether its 3rd party, or TP (official).

So it does get messy.

You are failing to look at the server economy in a holistic manner. Silver exchange from player X to player Y does not affect the economy at all, which is precisely what happens when you sell a TP item in the MP.

In fact, it REDUCES the silver floating in the economy because of the MP tax.

Whereas botting and then selling RMT INJECTS silver into the economy, it is literally printing money which causes inflation. THIS is econ 101, friend.

The TP items have an intrinsic value, which is determined by the value of the CURRENCY. The value of the CURRENCY isn’t affected by selling a TP item.

The value of the CURRENCY is screwed sideways by tons of gold farmers injecting their passive income into the server econ thanks to players buying their in game CURRENCY for real-life $.

When you buy a TP item, you are not buying CURRENCY. This is the fundamental difference that you are purposefully failing to grasp, in a veiled effort to justify your illegal and shameful acts.

The currency determines the value of item, not the other way around. If everyone spammed the ■■■■ out of the TP items instead of RMT, the value of the TP items would decrease, while the currency remained strong .

The above three quotes are 100% correct, and I endorse them. @Seiran should take note - the creation of the items themselves lower the value of the item, not the method through which they are traded.
Example - If only 1 Gilly’s Chicken Wings existed, and its value is estimated at 5bil silver / X USD, and then a second one is created, the estimated value will fall to 5bil - A / X - B USD where A and B are the drop in silver value and real money value respectively. Even if both items were never sold or traded by the creators/owners.

(Replace chicken wings with potato chips, or +21 primus cheesecakes of d000000m as needed)

IMC has all the responsibility to make the game not completely silver dependent

Closest i’ve seen that happen is to make everything account bound, a-la Diablow 3

This is just proof that 1:1 RMT affects economy.

1:1 RMT in general, not trading. High-end items as example.

Any sort of transaction, silver faucet, or item creation affects the economy. Whether 1:1 high-end RMT trades exists in large enough quantities to cause a noticeable effect, is another matter. The way trans’d items were locked previously (either lose your gems, or destroy your weapon) and currently (market only), would already prevent most use-cases (One can make the argument that you can list it for lower silver prices. I’d totally encourage it, lemmie snipe em). As for cosmetics, that doesn’t affect gameplay in any way, and i’d put controlling that sort of RMT as a lower priority (the issue here is that its harming gameplay in the sense that weapons, armors, and such are pricy for your average player, and not cosmetics, is it?).

Unless there is another bunch of high-end gear besides trans’d items…? I hope i’m not missing any upgrades, here. Please do clarify.

1:1 RMT does appear in larger quantities in other games, especially KR ones (GEAR IS EVERYTHING), but in those games, the gear isn’t market-locked.

[Ersakoz]

So now market names addon is the cause for the witch hunt.

[Over.Kill]

No one is getting in trouble. This is just monkeys throwing ■■■■ on one another.

[SmithFashion]

You may not be personally defending it, but using terms like ‘RMT via TP/Gacha’ shows the rest of the community that you honestly think buying TP items and selling them on the Marketplace is RMT.

RMT is traditionally known as buying in-game currency from 3rd party sellers, and by using such terms you are sympathizing with people breaking the terms of service, whether you mean to or not. Look at who is liking your posts.

RMT = real money trading. It could be 1:1, it could be thru 3rd party, and it definitely could mean TP/Gacha. By definition you are using real life money to exchange for in game currency. Buy a token via TP > sell it on market right away essentially means you use real life cash to exchange for in game currency.

At my very first response I said “It does not make you legally wrong”. Yes, it doesn’t, you RMT the “legal way”. I never denied that. I simply said it makes you a hypocrite.

Now do I “sympathize” with illegal RMT? Maybe I do maybe I don’t, but I honestly don’t give a flying monkey ass about what some forum polices think, you especially. TOS is a game, a consumer product. Players are the one that keeps the game running and they should be deciding where to spend their cash on. If IMC truly gives a ■■■■ about this matter they wouldn’t have allowed all the bots running around for literally years and putting every aspect of the game behind a silver sink.

I don’t think I would be bothered to talk sense to you, but maybe someday you will learn that an open, intelligent discussion looks at things in both sides.

[Veldt]

Seems as though most people don’t understand economics in a video game but I’ll try to shed some light.
In an MMO when you kill a monster, currency appears. This currency regardless of the source is then in the system until removed by an outside source. On its own the currency is worth less however it’s value is decided by a few factors such as the amount of time it takes to obtain amounts of currency as well as the cost of fixed items in the game such as silver sinks which effectively work to stop a literal infinite supply of a currency.
This is different from real life because irl the only (legal) way to obtain currency is to exchange items or time for it (a job ect) and that money never fully “leaves” the economy since money doesn’t just materialize like in an MMO. Thus irl it’s much harder to reach a state of inflation (value of currency comparable to amount of currency ) than it is in an mmo since again in an MMO money literally appears from nowhere. Because of this if this money isn’t going into silver sinks it inflates the prices on the server . This gets worse because RMTing is rarely done though players but through bots who don’t need to eat sleep or go out. Because of their ability to constantly generate silver and trade it for money that isn’t related at all to the game, this throws the economy into a death spiral. This is different from tp since the value of those items is 100% decided by the community and isn’t in it’s self it’s in form of currency. You can’t buy anything at all in the game for a diamond anvils, however you can trade it to another player or sell it on the market. Thusly TP trade doesn’t actually hurt the game(in the framework of this discussion, the tp shop is a mess and that’s a topic for another day).

Tl;Dr: RMT bad for a multitude of reasons. Tp trade is bad but not for the same reasons.

Right. The above is PARTIALLY CORRECT. This exact sort of argument about item value etc has been thrown around for ages in EVE-Online (Spreadsheets online, boys). As a long-time player (since launch) in THAT particular market-simulator, i’d say I have browsed, argued, and thrown around enough insults over economy arguments to cover the entire TOS population in digital crap.

I browse things like this for fun https://www.eveonline.com/article/pa9fr1/monthly-economic-report-may-2018

Enjoy the link!

The specifics:

In an MMO when you kill a monster, currency appears.

To add on - any sort of currency (silver) generation method, be it monster killing, quest running, NPC fondling, dungeon mashing, etc. I refer to these as currency faucets / taps (region language)

This currency regardless of the source is then in the system until removed by an outside source. On its own the currency is worth less however it’s value is decided by a few factors such as the amount of time it takes to obtain amounts of currency as well as the cost of fixed items in the game such as silver sinks which effectively work to stop a literal infinite supply of a currency.

This is correct. The balance between faucets/taps and the necessary effort required is important. Players will always flock to the most efficient method (or the most brain-dead one).

This is different from real life because irl the only (legal) way to obtain currency is to exchange items or time for it (a job ect) and that money never fully “leaves” the economy since money doesn’t just materialize like in an MMO.

This is incorrect. An exact comparison would be how the central bank of a country controls the amount of currency in circulation, not people’s jobs. The central bank’s control of the amount of the country’s currency present in the economy is how the currency faucets and currency sinks control the amount of in-game money (in this case, silver) present.

Here are some stuff for you all to read up upon, if you’re so inclined.

The Destruction of Money: Who Does It, Why, When, and How?

Why Can't the Government Just Print More Money to Get Out of Debt?

Thus irl it’s much harder to reach a state of inflation (value of currency comparable to amount of currency ) than it is in an mmo since again in an MMO money literally appears from nowhere.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_Zimbabwe

This gets worse because RMTing is rarely done though players but through bots who don’t need to eat sleep or go out. Because of their ability to constantly generate silver and trade it for money that isn’t related at all to the game, this throws the economy into a death spiral.

This is correct - Excessive bots is the same as uncontrolled government ‘printing’ of currency - Again, see Zimbabwe.

This is different from tp since the value of those items is 100% decided by the community and isn’t in it’s self it’s in form of currency. You can’t buy anything at all in the game for a diamond anvils, however you can trade it to another player or sell it on the market.

Semi-correct. TP can be compared to…an easy example would be another country’s currency, versus your own. The TP << >> Silver trade can be compared to foreign currency exchange.

Exchanging diamond anvils for gear is… barter trade! My 5 apples for your 2 chickens, good sir.

Thusly TP trade doesn’t actually hurt the game(in the framework of this discussion, the tp shop is a mess and that’s a topic for another day)

Correct. TP trade (excessively) only harms the values of the TP items. The total silver circulation and ‘value’ does not change. TP shop is a mess, yeah.

Tl;Dr: RMT bad for a multitude of reasons. Tp trade is bad but not for the same reasons.

10/10, 5 Stars, Laima stamp of approval.

Edit: RNGesus Dice. That was long, and I really hope it educates people here on where exactly is their stance, and what they (and others) are arguing for/against.

Arguing a point when you yourself is uninformed is…just…

Edit2: @Nekorin has nice ideas. Also i’ve gotten a little busy IRL, so i’m stepping out for now. Please read up on the above economics stuff.

[Seiran]

These folks (the facebook dudes) aren’t the ‘silver sellers’, mind you.

Never told it is.

Solo sellers (Mainly 3rd world country) folks who’re selling off gear due to either quitting, or lucked out on drops/upgrades and want some easy cash. This second category are the ones you see on facebook

And they affect economy.

I’m not TOO sure if they’re relevant anywhere else besides the SA server (if any SA players can chime in with details, that’ll be nice). That kind of stuff is more relevant there.

If it’s possible or exists somewhere it already affects economy there.

@Seiran should take note - the creation of the items themselves lower the value of the item, not the method through which they are traded .

And I never disagreed with that. But the simple fact of skipping taxes and removing competition affects economy.

Whether 1:1 high-end RMT trades exists in large enough quantities to cause a noticeable effect, is another matter.

Good point. There’s no “another matter” here, game rules should consider actions as whole and RMT 1:1 allows ugly things to happen even if no one is doing it.

1:1 RMT does appear in larger quantities in other games

And it appear in large quantities in ToS as well, especially in SA and SEA, affecting the servers economy.

[Veldt]

And it appear in large quantities in ToS as well, especially in SA and SEA, affecting the servers economy.

The way trans’d items were locked previously (either lose your gems, or destroy your weapon) and currently (market only), would already prevent most use-cases (One can make the argument that you can list it for lower silver prices. I’d totally encourage it, lemmie snipe em). As for cosmetics, that doesn’t affect gameplay in any way, and i’d put controlling that sort of RMT as a lower priority (the issue here is that its harming gameplay in the sense that weapons, armors, and such are pricy for your average player, and not cosmetics, is it?).

SEA is more affected by silver-based RMT, thus the lower ‘value’ of silver (higher market silver prices).

[Seiran]

SEA is more affected by silver-based RMT, thus the lower ‘value’ of silver (higher market silver prices).

Yet still affected by 1:1 RMT. They exist and affect economy there.

[Veldt]

Yet still affected by 1:1 RMT. They exist and affect economy there.

If you put it that way, the other 2 servers (NA/EU) also do have them existing and being affected.

Existing and whether they are actually present in large enough numbers to be worth enforcement effort are two separate matters.

Edit: Right. It is lunch, and i’m out. Back tomorrow.

[Tankhime]

I’m going to list an idea, and I’m sorry if it’s been mentioned before. I can’t be bothered to read through 400 posts right now and post.

I remember that IMC never wanted to step into Captcha territory, but I think with the bot reporting system they currently have combined with it, could stand to be a pretty decent method of finding bots.

Say for instance, a bot is reported enough times (by enough people) to warrant them getting a Captcha. You can’t attack at all while Captcha’d, and summons also immediately would stop or be destroyed instantly. The player would get unlimited chances to get it correct, but it changes every fail.
If you fail 3 tries, a GM would be notified, but you can still continue to try as many times as it would take. What this does is create an endless loop, causing bots to get stuck unable to continue until solving.
It’s just an idea, and could use tweaking by other community members.

The problem with bots in general, is that time is not much of a factor to them at all.

Normal people can only play for so long, and bots (made by players) are obviously made to circumvent that limitation, or exploit that human limitation for money (bots made by gold sellers). So, bans, timeouts, and suspensions only do so much to them because they can just make more.
In the end, it’s always going to be an uphill battle of getting rid of them. The payout for a bot is just always better than the loss of time spent making one.

[Over.Kill]

Randy faked the photo. http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.php?id=a6cb732d65092a34d3aefc0b3860663389cd1372.158141&fmt=ela 1
Black rectangles all over where my name should be. It’s the wrong name btw.

http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.php?id=f53bc6fe89570bac1883e93a1c85fc2e09e39dd4.66241&fmt=ela
Photo given by a guildmember of lotus 2 months ago. 100% no anomalies. showing randy selling cockatfeather

puts on shades gets the popcorn

[Bhikku]

I get busy for a while and this thread went from remotely relevant RMT discussions to this pile of trash.

I saw you type trash for like 100 posts straight. Probably why people after you thought anything goes.

I’m obviously an RMTer and now my RMT is getting taken away. Boohoo

Let me direct you here and hopefully you stop polluting this thread as well.

[Fenatte]

The damage control is top notch tier, even for tree of retard standards. Didn’t know it was possible to be THIS pathetic.

[Friend]

haHAA the same typhoonz who openly admitted he RMT’d and ran bots is trying his damn hardest to backpedal

[zerosky1991]

Like I mention long reply ago . If imc keep banning the player bot is become a dangerous existence any player can buy bot to buy off an item from player cost them to be RMT and get ban I hope you guys make sense . RMT is never ever die off unless the game never make a single penny or item is id bound even though it it’s ppl can also sold their id as count this as RMT . I can see some don’t spend a single penny in tos also share the thoughts are funny ones . You can reduce to very low RMT activities but no one can stop one player that wish to sell off their item . Hope you guys wakeup from this dream .