I suggest IMC should make attributes shareable among all characters for r11. In this way, people will invest more on attris = more silver sink. It also helps players who have multiple toons to enjoy them
The real bane of this is the fact that only so few Classes are really viable for playing the game. Most of them are bad or not really unique in what they are doing.
More Ranks open up more opportunities for character building, bad Class design is what hinders the development of builds. Meta will always be more effective as long as this game doesnât reward its own diversity.
I in fact am all for 12 Ranks, as you can build a lot more freely without having to think that much about the consequences, since you can just grab 1 Rank 8 Class at C3 to provide the damage you need to advance, leaving you with a total of 8 free Class Circles to choose from.
If you re-balance the former Rank 1-7 Classes slowly afterwards by adding âMaster Circlesâ for Rank 12, you also have the option to boost the popularity of old Classes a lot.
About limitations:
They could always put in a few limitations to boost viability of Classes/builds, e.g. allow for only one Rank 8 Class to be chosen (which would probably enforce meta even more) or allow you to either advance to Circle 3 of Rank 8 Classes or to take a Master Circle for your favorite low-tier Class, there are a lot of possibilities here.
Most of them would pretty much ruin the fun,though.
In my opinion, itâs best to re-balance every Class tree so that you have viable damage options (e.g. Zealot & Exorcist) at the end while providing useful Classes along the way to build up the identity of your character.
Iâd love to see what Master Dievdirbys, Master Kabbalist and Master Bokor might do. It could even be something like Priests advancement, as a totally different Class (e.g. Kabbalist becomes Maharal, Bokor becomes Macumbeiro, no idea about Dievdirbys, as Iâm not familiar with the Ranks of Lithuanian paganistic clergy).
1 Like
You are correct, the real bane is there are classes that are underpowered when compared to the rest, like Hunter, Oracle, Cannoneer just to name a few.
The idea of increasing class circles to up to rank 12 isnât going to help them. They are still going to be of the same power level as before. Using an example of our beloved Kabbalist, will going up to R12 save Kabbalist from not being viewed as a ânot as viable for dps option?â
The answer is still no, while we Kabbalist can pick up Exorcist C3 to be âviableâ, it doesnât stop the current top dps contenders from picking up extra circles to further raise the bar to be considered as a good DPS build. Like Sadhu3 Druid1 Exorcists3 now can pick up Druid3 for 2 ranks for that sweet +30% magic damage. Or Druid2 Zealot3 can pick up Taoist1 Druid3 for huge Fanatic Illusion damage.
When that time comes, it will still be the same as of now since the meta DPS builds also benefit from the increased circles. What would we do then, have a similar discussion to further increase the circle limitations?
Increasing circles doesnât make a class more viable, it just masks the shortcomings of the class
=====================================================
Like you said, what we need is for IMC to rework on the classes that are underpowered, so as to bring these classes up a level which they are able to contend with other classes without borrowing the circle 3s of rank 8s.
i.e. Ideally a rank7 circle3 class such as Cannoneer + 1 circle of rank8 should be able to contend with 3 circles of Rank8 in terms of power output.
IMC had already started doing this after the release of R10. They added R10 only attributes for classes rank 4 to 7 to bring them more inline with the rank8 classes, and will bring more of such attributes and fixes as time goes on.
======================================================
As for future content updates my suggestion will be master classes for ranks 2-7. The original 9 choices the player made for their build will remain. A master class will not count in an extra circle of a particular class, for example, if a Kabbalist C2 is take in âKabbalist Masterâ, it will not unlock circle 3 skills.
Instead the master class will have skills that will augment or compliment the existing class, and the player can only take a master class if they have at least 2 circles of that class within their 10 circle/rank build. Each build can take up to a maximum of 2 master classes which rounds off nicely at âRank 12â. Players cannot take any of the original classes after rank 10 but only master classes.
What this does is it adds more depth to builds without compromising on build diversity. Those who chose to go Druid3 Exo2 will still be different from those who go Druid2 Exo3 and have distinct play differences (one uses Transform while the other is Awoo).
2 Likes
The only problem I see with this is that Rank 10 as a stopping point would pretty much destroy all options for viable R7 C3 builds. The reason is that you cannot take a Rank 8 Class to C2 (which is the best Circle for basically all R8 Classes), leaving them heavily impaired.
Letâs go with the extreme and choose Kabbalist C3 with C1 of either Zealot or Exorcist.
Both Classes are really underwhelming at their performance when only C1, which will make the character a weak failure (pretty much forced to be full support).
If you add the choice of Rank 11, it will enable you to build C2 of the Rank 8 Classes (including future ones), which will drastically improve the overall performance of the build.
IMC designed these Classes specifically to be very useful at C2, so youâre free to go C3 or not if you want to upgrade another Class instead. Thatâs why I believe Rank 11 will be the last proper Rank, it will open up a good conclusion for all builds.
And yes, while it is problematic that R6 Classes will be able to go C3 on R8 Classes, which will reduce the variety a little, it also opens up the possibility for new build variations that include other Classes (e.g. you can opt for Oracle or Bokor or whatever on DruidC3>ExoC2 instead of going DruidC3>ExoC3).
The real reason that e.g. Druid got so popular is because it offers too much for so few Circles.
Exorcist is cried over to deal too much damage, but itâs pretty much all Exorcist has to offer (except for the sporadic debuff removal with Gregorate);
Meanwhile, Druid has HP reg buff, damage, invulnerability, patk/matk boost& HP recovery via lycan or additional stat boosts & skills via transform, CCâŠ
This is also the reason why diversity got lost, if you put everything + damage in a single Class of a tree thatâs so diverse because every Class tends to specialize in only 1 or 2 things meta will obviously be created around it.
I really hope that it will become more important in the future to have more variety in the builds & parties.
Rank 11 could make a good starting point for this, with diverse content that doesnât just require you to destroy monster Z in X minutes or youâll fail.
They will probably release more rank 8 classes.
But in my opinion, it is time for IMC to create 3rd branching classes from rank 2 to 7. So more possible builds are available.
There will be 3 classes available per rank.
Example:
Cleric Rank 2 - Krivis | Priest | NEW CLERIC CLASS
Imagine the new possible builds with a new branch.
Just my opinion 
4 Likes
Alternatively, itâs also possible to streamline the class splits as well.
For example, make all rank 3 classes available in rank2, all rank 5 classes available in rank 4, and all rank 7 classes available in rank6. With this, having rank 10 be the final rank would make a lot more sense; most of your circle picks having to be circle2 or circle3 at the expense of a higher class circle.
This way there would be no headaches with rank7 classes, and a lot more diverse builds concerning lower rank utility.
EDIT: It will also kind of even out the current splits having around 4 classes to choose from every 2 ranks, like how there are 4 rank 8 classes to choose from already. (not counting hidden classes)
2 Likes
There are rank8 classes other than just Exorcist and Zealots⊠did you try all of themâŠ, really? Who says Kabbalist canât DPS with 1 circle of rank8 classes? Is Cleric Rank8 Circle1 really impaired?
Thatâs with around 5.6k patk.
Rank 8 circle 2s are fantastic yes, but it doesnât mean their circle 1s are underwhelming at all. Zealot C1 and Exorcist C1 can shine under the right build with just 1 circle.
Do try out Sadhu3 Plague Doctor C3 Exorcist C1 and tell me whether Exo1 contributes much to that build, especially with 3 overheats of aqua benedicta. Zealot C1 on the other hand, excels with its +30% damage fanaticism burst, and it works with both physical and magic, making it a good choice for a nice filler R8 and above class for magic and physical builds.
I do agree that druid kit is too strong, especially Chortasmata with both the ability to heal and damage. A way to balance it will be to create an attribute which toggles only either heal or dps, not both. As for Exorcist wise, Rubric has too much of a priority in the entire build, recommend dropping Rubricâs SFR numbers while increase the damage of its other skills, so that they have a chance to shine and not being 2nd/3rd priority to Rubric.
4 Likes
Master Rank is the way, give us Monk Master Rank and Asura Strike at Rank 11.
With that said, IMC never disclosed anything about Master Rank since that one time they decided to rework how classes from Rank 8 onwards work. Hope they didnât scrap the idea.
On the topic:
We seem to be forgetting some key factors when it comes to plausible build making, additional ranks, and the rank 8 stacking theory.
- Interest in the class rank (I like this theme/skill)
- There will be more than just the current rank 8âs
- Skill synergy
- How well older/newer ranks help complete a build
- Skill bar bloat
- Skill specific restrictions (Lycanthropy, Fanaticism, etc.)
- Weapon specific restrictions
- Stat effects on skills
- Hidden ranks
- Ease of play (Smooth feeling vs. Bulky/Clunky)
- Attributes
- Skill scaling
- Equipment bonus effects
- Etc.
All these factors have major weight in the issues that many of you, who are not for more ranks past 10 or 11 due to rank 8 stacking, feel about this. These factors alone can hinder certain build varieties let alone stacking of certain classes.
Now yes there are some class ranks that will be the âput this rank here and your build will be gucciâ, but that is something every base class has an issue with.
- falconer
- quarrel shooter
- druid
- priest
- cleric 2
- sorcerer
- peltasta
- shinobi
- etc.
Off the topic:
Now to those who think druids chortasmata is âTOOâ strong⊠Itâs not. Itâs a great skill, but that about all it mounts up to. Yes it heals, yes it does damage in the form of a debuff, but uh⊠thats as good as it gets. It has the same mechanic as the Cleric skill Heal, but poorer healing and stays there when stepped on.
Itâs a static patch of ground that does not effect flying enemies or allies.
I believe I know the reason why yaâll think its âTOOâ strong, and thatâs because of its heal effect. Well the heal is a static trickle that is only increased by the level of the skill and the increased heals % bonus you get from your Con stat. By no means is this ground breaking. Any content that is above medium to higher level difficulty destroys through the static heal of Chortasmata. I can easily drop an Aukuras and get better heals with Int or Con allocated, and it will scale with my increase in stats from levels and gear. Literally right now with the amount of spirit I have, I can drop 1 heal tile and heal more hp than standing in Chortasmata for 10-15 seconds could. Chortasmata is by no means as strong as people make it out to be.
Do players really want to see the birth of the most infamous build such a zealot3 taoist2, absolutely nothing could compare to this.
If we cannot stack rank 8 circle 3 with any other rank 8 Iâm fine that way.
TBH the real reason I want IMC to stop at rank10 for now is so that they can focus on cleaning up and improving what already exists. If we just keep getting more ranks and level expansions weâll just get more of the same content, just with higher numbers. If we stay on rank 10 for awhile then maybe they can revisit core aspects of the game such as the actual class and rank system, enhancement system or better balance neglected things like hunter and alchemist etc.
2 Likes
Ofc it contributes, Exorcist 1 is a more complete DPS class than Sadhu 1, 2, 3 and PD 3 combined.
That build is basically just Cleric, PD 2 and Exorcist 1.
I donât disagree with you saying C1 of a rank 8 class is good, I just found it humorous that you listed what is (At least IMO) 2 of the most useless classes in the Cleric tree as a way of saying Exorcist 1 is okay.
Really bothers me how IMC balances a few cherry picked classes and then forgets about the others. I mean, I picked Peltasta 2 on my Doppel 3, 2h sword build, because the new Guardian is literally absurd compared to the things rank 2~3 swordmen can give you.
I mean, what do you prefer? +100% pdef, mdef, -20% damage taken and +150 evasion from Guardian lv 10, or around +400 fix patk IF you are a full STR build from Gung Ho lv 15?
Complaints apart, I donât think itâs a good idea to release rank 11 anytime soon. You know why? Because every gear & instance that was made for rank 10 will then be forgotten. They need to stop releasing higher levels, stronger enemies, better gear, and start broadening the spectrum of choices you have for endgame content.
They need to stop making new content without considering the previous ones. There is a lot of content in this game, but IMCâs capability of reusing them is astonishingly bad. They need to give us reasons to go back and hunt weaker monsters, do lower lvl dungeons, quests, map events (yes, they do still exist) and so on.
Hereâs some examples of what could be easily done with very little effort and would improve our gameplay drastically:
-
Take all old dungeons, and make them drop different materials to craft end-game gear, in a way no dungeon gives the same type of required material. Then, youâll find more reasons to do, for example, a lvl 50 dungeon as a lvl 300+ character.
-
Make quests give status points, or fragments of status points, making you much more interested in completing all quests in the game rather than just skip dozens of maps because you leveled too fast.
-
Make old maps become âfarming mapsâ for specific items. You can take Phamer Forest & Alembique Cave and make them drop enhancement cards from monsters at a reasonably high chance (letâs say, 5% chance per mob?) to inspire players to farm there now. You can take another 2 maps and make mobs drop abrasives there. Another 4 maps and make them drop Exp Cards that can be put in your team storage. Another 4 maps and make them drop Sierra Dust at a lower rate than youâd get by doing the endgame instances.
-
For example, Make an item that is used along with an anvil when refining that slightly increases refine chance (letâs say, +10% chance, and you can only use it once per refine), then make that item drop from different mobs in old maps:
- Forest of Prayer, Seir Rainforest & Manahas drops this item to be used in refine rates +5 to +7
- Stogas Plateau, Coastal Fortress & Kalejimas Storage drops this item to be used in refine rates +7 to +9
- Pystis Forest, Mishekan Forest & Syla Forest drops this item to be used in refine rates +9 to +11
- and so onâŠ
-
While weâre at it, take all those modified maps for mob drops and decrease the mob spawn time and make it actually worth it to hunt mobs there.
-
Make Monster Gems no longer occupy the same slots as normal gems. Now all equipments have a slot dedicated only to Monster Gem. While weâre at it, please make normal gems increase stats by a percentage rather than a fix valueâŠ
-
Now take those map gimmicks, like memory game, launching the orb, defending the statue, and make them all give sweet cosmetic headgears. Headgears unique to the gimmick game type, too. Thereâs hundreds of already implemented headgears in the game, most arenât available anymore, so why not reuse them?
-
Least but not last, give us some reason to keep farming/leveling after weâve reached lvl cap. Maybe we can keep getting exp but instead of gaining a level, upon hitting a certain amount of exp we get a random item reward. Since IMC loves RNG, why not make it something like:
- 20% chance to get 3 blessed gems
- 20% chance to get 2 lvl 6 abrasive
- 20% chance to get 10 random boss card
- 20% chance to get 500k silver
- 20% chance to get 1 talt (because we love them anyways)
Those are just some really easy features to implement. It requires nearly zero programming and itâs all based on things that already exist. Of course Iâd love to see new content, higher ranks, etc, but whatâs the point in implementing higher level stuff when old stuff will always be forgotten?
5 Likes
Let us just visualise that what might happen when R11 comes with fruition and the developers restrict builds to only 1 Rank8 class in the build.
Over on the clericâs side, what will rank8 classes get normally to get higher damage?
- Zealots gets Druid3 Zealot3. +20% physical damage via Awoo(semi lycan), applicable to all zealotâs skills and stacks nicely with Fanaticism.
- Exorcists will get Druid3 Exorcist3. +30% magic damage via Awoo, applicable to all exorcistâs skills
- Taoists will get Druid3 Taoist3, why not as +30% awoo is too good to pass, makes everything deal more damage
- Inquisitors will get hmm, oh canât druid3 for more damage since need paladin, but it is a fair option to consider as the damage increase from Awoo covers everything and not only Godsmash/Smite/Demolition benefitting from Paladinâs Conviction.
Then let us look at the archerâs sideâŠ
- Hackapelle⊠donât need to consider much, Falcon3 Hacka3
- Mergen, best to get aiming for the sweet arrow shower + aiming love. Falcon3 Mergen3
- Bulletmarker, why not join in too, aiming is always good for aoes. Falcon3 BM3
- Piper, as a support class it will be good to have the best support for party. Falcon3 Piper3.
All the above doesnât have multiple Rank8 classes. What kind of build diversity does this bring to the game? Will classes like Oracle be considered if rank 11 is open? Why do you think IMC make it so restricted that players who take the rank6 circle 3s can only contend with rank8 circle 2 and the build defining skills come mainly from circle 3? (with Exorcist as exception)
I do pray that this isnât the kind of game IMC envisioned ToS to be.
=====================================================
I would very much love to make the perfect build too, like Enchanter perfect AA build with Kino3 Thau3 Chrono3 Enchanter3. Even with Rank11, just 1 additional circle adds so much, I can build a Wiz1 Cryo1 Kino2 Thau3 Sorc1 Enchant3.
So why not? It is mainly due to variety. With a 10 class circle restriction, there can be more variants to builds, Enchanters can have LinkerThau enchanters, CryoChrono enchanters, KinoSorcerer enchanters and such. The more circles open the lesser variants we have as most of the time we always go for the best builds, just like the above Rank 11 example.
Appreciate the beauty in imperfection; Strive to be make the best within contraints; Embrace the wabi-sabi.
======================================================
I donât think Kabbalist nor Inquisitor are useless at all⊠and why isnât exorcist good? Exorcist2 is better doesnât mean circle 1 is subpar or anything.
2 Likes
To add on this for swordie:
If rank11 comes out you can go rete3 murm1 - ridiculous damage and defense, opens up peltasta skills for more damage.
Heck, I go rete2 murm1 now as a choice for a balance between tank and damage. rank11 will just make it an unstoppable damage and tank machine.
Solution is to make murm2 and 3 actually worth taking
Donât know much about lancers, and matas lol
1 Like
Inquisitor C1 is by far the worst choice of all the R8 Classes. Not only does it require a mace in every case for full damage on God Smash, the other skills are pretty much so weak that youâre left with ± one burst skill [3 overheats & 50% def ignore incoming] every 20 seconds.
Not saying that the burst potential is very bad, but itâs simply not what you want in a decent gameplay setting.
The basic problem is that Cleric in general has very few damage skills.
Exorcist e.g. fixes that quite well with enough skills to spam and to lure mobs.
And even Inquisitor at C2 is way better than C1, because you can exploit extra damage on God Smash via Judgement. That said, Kabbalist C3>Inquisitor C2 could be a very useful addition to e.g. Velcoffer raid parties (not saying that Pala3>Kabba C3>Inqui C3 wouldnât be super cool to have at Rank 12).
âunder the right buildâ is exactly what bugs me.
If Circle 2 would allow them to be viable for the majority of builds and C1 just for a few, wouldnât C2 increase the variety of build options and C1 just produce some snowflake builds?
Thatâs because of weapon restrictions. Just look at what you can get for the weapon you generally tend to choose. Thereâs ± nothing as effective as Falconer because the Falcon autoattacks at C3.
If Hunter was e.g. similar at that aspect and the companion wouldnât be unconscious 90% of the time, it could be a viable alternative to Falconer C3.
They already change summons, we can only hope to have similar changes to Hunters & companions.
The base problem behind this is that in this game damage counts more than everything else.
If there was actually some content that would entice people to embrace other Classes for utility,
we wouldnât have this sort of a problem.
This is why I want Rank 11 to be different.
By the way, with the current changes on Cannoneer, Cannoneer C3 can deal as much damage as Exorcist C2 can (and possibly way more due to crits). I donât see any point leaving a Kabbalist C3 with only Exorcist C1 or Zealot C1. Thatâs as if you say: âYou want to have a decent supoort and damage? go Druid3>Exo2 then, not Kabba3>Exo1â,
you will force people into meta because they canât build something that can at least partially replace what you lose for going another path. Druid3>Exo2 will be viable as damage/support hybrid,
Kabbalist3>Exo1 is a supporter with little damage.
The people who will build optimum meta for damage and/or support will always exist.
They wonât budge and change builds.
Itâs the normal average player that will want to change builds and play as they like it
who really benefit from 11 or 12 Ranks.
They are the reason why diversity exists in the first place, and they will be given more freedom to play as they like with additional Ranks.
This is because we currently only have 10 Ranks released. It was different last year and probably will be different next year. With that logic, why would Rank 7 Classes have to be restricted to only 1 circle of Rank 8 Classes? If the real game is supposed to begin with Rank 8, Rank 7 Classes probably would need the option to go Rank 7 C3 Rank 8 C3.
There are some exemptions like Musketeer, Dragoon, Cannoneer, Warlock, but there are a lot of them who canât carry their own weight through the game.
Leveling such characters to Rank 10 alone is a pain, and then, when there is hope at Rank 11 to become better/useful, they are suddenly cut short to prevent Druid Zealot and other possible DPS buildsâŠ
I see your point in addressing meta, but that fact wonât change. I see it every day in raids, the guild and 330 dungeon, some people play the top builds and some people play crazily diverse builds.
In honesty, I donât want to shut down creative heads just for the sake that meta players donât get to have their optimum meta build. And I donât want IMC to do this either.
The content should address this problem, not only the Rank limitation.
If they separate Rank increase from level increase as they stated they plan to do previously,
they can bring Rank 11 early [so people can get a new Class Circle] and the level cap update later on.
Given the level cap is always around 30 levels now, we could still grind on old maps till cap without EXP malus,
so itâs easily doable to let the people grind their new Ranks on old maps with old equipment.
And they also stated in the current Popolion Post that they plan to reduce loss on old equipment with upcoming updates, which would be even more of a reason to bring out Rank 11 earlier than the next level cap update.
If Velcoffer will stay the best equipment and just receive some additions/overhauls in the next/endgame content updates, it really makes it difficult to say something against more Rank updates either way, since all investment except into Velcoffer gear is in vain anyway.
Thatâs not to say the points of you are invalid, but given the plans they have, it might not be so bad to have a separate Rank update, so people simply grind the same content a bit longer without being bored.
About your proposed changes: There could be easy ways to do this, e.g. by implementing community quests which reward players for doing gimmicks, map events, collecting items, completing certain quests or events, etc.
For now we have to see what they change until then. Just today the test server released a huge patch on Guild Territory War changes, revised old collection rewards
I think that Tao1 is slightly worse, only has one decent support skill that requires Krivis 3 to even be useful for your own damage.
Inquisitor C1 has 2 good PVE skills (breaking wheel and god smash) and 2 good PVP skills (pears and malleus). It is just a shame that malleus is completely useless in a PVE setting due to all the nerfs.
1 Like
In my opinion r11 should be master circles. Only available for a class you have c3 on, and it should have only attributes that improve its class, and one skill, that shouldnât be very overpowered (something like the velcoffer set skills, they are good but you donât need them to do well)
And as someone who plays murm1-ret2, I agree 100% with Remiri, thereâs no point in taking murm2 and 3 when Ret2 can do everything better. Ret3+murm1 would be insanely good, and fencer3+matador3 too.
I meant Sadhu and PD3.
You said Exorcist contributes to Sadhu 3, PD 3.
PD 2 is an amazing class, itâs got offensive debuffs and amazing utilities/defensive abilities. No argument against it from me.
But PD3 is disgustingly bad and Sadhu⊠Well itâs in the name, Sad Who.
Itâs a do nothing class that contributes almost nothing to anything.
To say Exorcist 1 would contribute to that build isnât really saying much, That build is basically Cleric 2, PD 2, Exorcist 1.
Anyways I was just musing (I think is the term), Iâm not trying to undermine anything youâre saying or anything, I just thought it was funny that those classes were your example.
OFF TOPIC TOO:
I think the healing is not the problem with Druidâs Chostormata. It is the duration and CD of the skill.
Yeah the Druidâs healing was inferior (but its decent) to other healing skills but the fact that the skill has a maximum of 30 sec Duration and a CD of 20 sec. You have sustained healing for an infinite duration of time in the battlefield. Compared to Heal, Mass heal, Aukras, Tree of sepiroth. All have this gap in their CDs.