I have dopel in my hoplite build. And also I will definitely try dopel c2 (this character is about 70-80 lvl for now).
I want to try all that swordies tree can offer. And also I will be ready for swordsmans buffs, cos I will have nearly all dd classes within my characters 
Every Swordsmen skill is a conditional 150%+ because of weapon types.
Less you all forget very few Archer skills benefit from the Weapon tree of Strike,Pierce,Slash,Ghost.
Excluding Ghost enemies all your damage skills conditionally benefit, which makes inherently means all Swordsmen class attacks scale by 1.5x on the correct enemy type (except for ghosts).
Archers in particular is disingenous. Archers have 3 considerable damage buffs. Sneak Hit, Running Shot, Steady aim and Swiftstep is significantly overrated (well Iâd sayâŚoverstated) given the reality of Critical hits.
The Maximum damage a person gets is a 50% modifier from a critical hit + however much their critical attack contributes to their damage output.
As a 1.25x crit RATE modifier, Swift steps maximum possible contribution is 12.5% more DPS (as 25% of a 50% boost is 12.5% on average).
Yet we know on an enemy with 0 crit resist at 280. 500 crit rate is 75% crit chance. 1.25x500 of that brings you to 93.75% crit rate which is 18.75%. Thatâs 9.3% more average damage. To get 534 crit rate x 1.25 is 100% crit rate on 0 crit resist enemy. 533 maybe if it rounds up (as its 99.blah blah blah). 533 is 79.95% crit chance or 80%. 20% extra crit chance is literally 10% more damage. Or to put it another way, Swift Step caps out in practice at 10% more damage if you have a crazy amount of crit chanceâŚ
Steady aim 15 is 20% for 10 seconds, on a 25s cooldown. Thatâs 40% uptime. 20% boost. 40% of the time is 8%.
The basic benefit of Swift Step differs from Steady aims benefit by 2% except Steady aim doesnât care if you have 0 or 525 crit rate, youâre getting that 8% average dps increase.
Recall that Archer already from the start has a 10% penalty on Medium enemies, 15% on large and XLâŚ
Outside of Sneak Hit and Running Shot, archers buffs are very overstated in their overall contribution. Running shot doesnât apply to skills and Sneak Hit requires the back which makes them fairly conditional in their own right. Running shot is obviously a very powerful AA buff but thatâs what it has to be appreciated as, especially since archer AAâs are naturally single-target.
Sneak-hits large Crit bonus lets the archer pump more STR which lets Crit attack factor in more as a dps bonus. Very powerful buff, but its based on positioning.
Again not to be melodramatic, Thatâs just how things work. Now you talk damage on flying enemies and Archers have a great weapon bonus for that. Single-target? Archers have great damage skills for that and Circling/Linker can magnify that potential.
Otherwise most of their self-buffs arenât huge deals. Part of why Circling is so awesome is letting archers get in on more of the aoe fun.
Otherwise, even when it comes to AAâs, archers are working at 1x/0.9x/0.85x per shot (pre running shot) vs Swordsmen doing 1x/2x/3x/4x depending on amount of enemies hit with aoe AAâs. Then a lot more naturally AOE skills, and so on and so forth.
The DPS contribution between Swordsmen and their contemporaries gets overstated although again Circling does help a lot to make those gaps.
Iâm starting to think that youâre just doing this mathematically instead of actually experiencing playing an archer yourself.
A party goes walk, taunt, use buffs, kill/heal, walk. with that in mind you could use your buffs in an even more proper way and have it almost ready every wave, not just mindlessly using them. This would apply though if we are talking strictly about bosses, stationary parties wonât even be included here due to mob respawn time.
and if you havenât noticed, upgrading archer weapons seems to do a lot more than just flat damage, thatâs another thing.
I have 4 different archers and only 2 swordsmen. Not including Ktos and ICBT2 (in which case, yeesh)
If you go on a Per wave basis, Steady aim craps all over Swift steps damage contribution even in its nerfed state and yet most archers salivate over Swift steps attribute (which is fine given its only 1 rank, vs 3 ranks for Swift Step 15). Again, to repeat strongest buffs are Sneak Hit and Running shot. If youâre just going for boost in a moment, nothing changes except running shot not being relevant to skill damage and Steady Aim > Swift Step not including steady aims attribute which gives it even more damage.
Swordsman C1 buffs arenât poor either given the buffs of Concentrate and Gung-ho are around 10% damage together when youâre hitting for 2k (5% at 4k)damage depending on your levels invested in them, Frenzy and Warcry canât be permanently maintained but still contributed to that average as well.
Donât be so bleak. Current trend of Swordsmen buffs has had them competitive with Archer buffs for the ranks at which theyâre obtained (as in stronger at the time). Gung-ho and Concentrate out-perform Swiftstep for a considerable amount of time. At which point Frenzy/Warcry come onto the seen as a barb. Sneak hit then comes into play as a rogue, and then Deeds blows it all apart.
No one is doing anyone any favors by underselling swordsmenâs damage output.
@const.alexander
Thatâs a trade off for going that route. However to note is that Hoplite/Dragoon get bonuses for enemy size.
So, is it ok to get only a rank of Pelt? I am planning to make a Cata 3 / Dragoon build for GvG and thought of this build here:
Well, most popular dd swordsman build hoplite-dopel-dragoon have no strike damage at all. And few builds have 1-2 skills with one of the damage types, with cd without overheatâŚ
As I know most popular cata build is highlander c2 - cata c3 - dragoon.
We are back here with you comparing a Rank 6-7(or 8) buff against lower tier archer buffs.
These lower tier archer buffs have better sustain overall compared to our current version of warcry and frenzy. and these archer buffs have little to no downsides on them, sneakhit is one, but itâs not even a big drawback for an archer to shoot at an enemyâs back.
Currently, for swordsman classes only DOV really shines in terms of amplifying damage, and it has a great deal of drawback at that, Obtained at rank 6 and a huge def loss.
I quite literally went through all the circles of buffs except for Finestra and I suppose DWA.
Concentrate/Gunghoe (c1)
Swiftstep (c2), Steady aim (c2)
Finestra (c3)
Frenzy, Warcry, Running Shot (c4)
Sneak Hit, DWA (c5)
Deeds (c6).
If you understood that whole thing as Deeds vs Swiftstep you greatly misread that post. I even went so far as to explain that the buffs all improved with Rank, where Swordsman buffs stood out well at the Rank theyâre given.
Of course itâs not about that exclusively, and I didnât want to discuss about finestra because itâs exclusive to spears and not most swordsman types.
My point is you actually needed to bring out Deeds to justify a swordsmanâs dps. Sure you can have warcry and frenzy, but we already discussed about it and the uptime it has.
Archers can do well without even having a rank 6 buff, this opens up more options to them.
I brought out Deeds because at Rank 7, Templar is not a damage class.
The very first line of the prior post was Gae Bulg, and then I went into discuss deeds.
I mentioned Gae Bulg because Gae Bulg is a debuff that boosts damage output of your party members on the wave.
Deeds of Valor is for the Swordsmens individual damage output.
That isnât any strike at all against Gae Bulg as when it comes to encounter design how much dps the entire party puts out is what counts at the end of the day. Fairly obvious more ranks of Gae Bulg mean even more uptime on the debuff which means even more damage.
Your Rank 7 choices (linearly speaking) are
Templar - not a factor for discussing damage
Squire C3 - not a factor for discussing damage
Dragoon - whose contribution is not based on its damage alone but parties in tandem with Gae Bulg. Damage output is good (multi-hits), lacks strike type.
Doppel - Basically a Berserker, no defense but a lot of potential damage.
Fencer - Trades some offense for greater (individual) defense then its contemporaries. Damage output is fair.
Corsair C3 - Working on building one myself. So Iâll see then. However itâs gimmick is the combo system for a minor boost to the party and looting for the party, not specifically its own damage output.
Edit: Forgot Shinobi. Shinobi has a metric ton of burst but itâs easier to die then Doppel. I donât think anyone has ever said Shinobi doesnât deal damage.
Naturally thatâs going to put Dragoon and Doppel as the first points of discussion for swordsmen dps, because theyâre the two r7 choices that are actually dedicated to killing things (barring the Shinobi which I forgot). Fencer is a more defensive option then Doppel, Templar and Squire arenât damage dealers at all.
Sad But True sorry about your character
You can do what Kirito has done and played âSOLOâ
i dont know why so many people like this build.
itâs â â â â in pvp, itâs medicore in pve.
Idk how people distribute skill points in that build but I made my own CpDr build, depends on that skills you can use while maunting a companion, and idk, you canât use crosscut while maunting but this one is core for highlander cos it ~doubles skylinerâs damage. I heard that in kTOS skyliner have no cooldown now. Mb thatâs whyâŚ
But if you will find it useful you are welcome:
http://www.tosbase.com/tools/skill-simulator/build/whizfhmng6/
Thanks for your honest feedback qq
Now you get it, swordsman classes naturally do not have any real realiable steroids other than a few classes like Hoplite and Doppel(R6) finestra is so good that it even gives an aoe attack ratio. Once again people will probably respect swordsman dps classes(barb route in particular) even more if warcry is actually more usable because you spend half the duration of it moving around, and it isnât 100% usable on bosses because they donât always spawn traps. Thereâs also other classes and their damage problems but I donât even need to get there anymore
Do you even know what you are talking about.
Yes a Barb can reach 500+ Bonus damage. You only have to use lvl 10 warcry on a pack of 10 monsters with a small aoe, (and every 81 seconds which is warcry cooldown), and then you have to use lvl 10 frenzy (thats 20 points already) and then hit 10 basic attacks, melee basic attacks, that force you to stay near the monsters and get cced/knocked down. Do you know how annoying doing all this setup is? Most times you wont even do it, because the other classes already killed everything before you can even get the stacks.
There is a reason why ktos is giving so many buffs to swordsman classes.
Have you tried the âCatalistâ Zornhay and Zucken?. The damage is average, even using Zornhau before, and the AOE is pitiful,. And its only 1 charge.
And no, even Doppel cant make up for the dps loss. Using the Deeds of Valor makes you lose ALL DEF, making you as weak as any other class against physical damage, but you have to be INSIDE the monsters to hit with cyclone. AND you have to be hit 10 times, which forces you to actually be the tank, but takes away your ability yo tank.
You only show meaningless numbers, âOH 500 attack so muchâ then fail to realise that other classes have âmillion hit skillsâ or â400% atk skillsâ which make small buffs a lot better than those 500 attack.
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Iâve already explained this to him, he doesnât seem to understand and then went on to deeds, which we all know is the best DPS buff but has a HUGE drawback which needs rank 6 AND a huge def loss. Archers usually just have the press the button and itâs ready with the exception of sneak hit, which still require very minimal positioning anywayâŚ
Well said bro, that is the reason I gave up on my Doppel. Past level 200 mobs deal damage like a truckâŚand by using DoV makes me lost a lot of defense, making it much worst. Additionally playing full dex also does not make sense with DoV since it evades most of the attacks making it very hard to stack it. Very tedious to stack Frenzy and DoV every time since the duration is so freaking short. I feel so sick of keep doing the same to stack the buffs.