Tree of Savior Forum

NO Job reset PLEASE!

i hate to join this debate, but i have to say, ppl seem to confuse with harder content and screwing something over

hard can be some mechanic require the player to do the right thing at the right time, and given small time window

hard can be some mechanic require highly precise team co-ordination

in order to finish certain game progress require certain meta class progression is no hard or easy, it is class balance issue

every build should have equal ability to finish/progress, the real mess up of a player would be how the skill rotation done

yet, i am against total class reset either, given total class reset there would be ppl abusing it, taken the fastest grinding pathway and reset to what ever he/she want

however, that does not mean “hard” “easy” “causal” are not valid argument too

"hard-core"and "causal"can co-exist in single MMO, catering them by proper content but not “only meta build work” crap (sorry for the language)

furthermore, what needed asap is proper balance, making every build have the equal opportunity of progressing

balancing issue is always one of the vital factor that kills a MMO

People want reset because they always want to be in the freaking meta cant deal with the option they have

Mmo nowaday is all about meta and im not liking it

1 Like

Meta, we are the one to blamed
many ppl just want quick run, rush
see too many MMO got destroy by those "Meta"
if each classes are perfectly balance, there will be no meta, and no class reset debate

Stat and skill resets are fine because you can make some mistakes, but not class/circle resets. Just make a new character if you want to do that.

What game even lets you reset your class/jobs? And I’m not counting Ragnarok Online rebirthing or Final Fantasy online games, because that’s an actual gameplay mechanic.

The only thing detrimental to TOS is IMC and their “design”.

Feel free to elaborate their “design” problems related to circle/class other than those mentioned already.

The fact that they’ve already had to rebalance almost every single class and plan to add more in the future? Sure seems like a design and character class identification problem to the role they are supposed to fill. Pardoner is a good example of a class they just completely gut and still don’t even know what to do with currently.

The reset WILL happen, like it or not it will, is simple as that.

Rebalancing will always happen when you’re adding in classes. If you’ve played Street Fighter, even the developers admit that they have to basically redo everything.

And thus, comes the point of offering a reset if you cant even provide a means for doing logical research to make a character you like. It doesn’t even have to be the flavor of the month typical cookie cutter build either it can happen to about anything. That’s all I’ve been advocating for and don’t think people should be able to reset on the fly because they messed up and want to change. But if they -do- radically change things there should be an option since that was out of your control and pretty messed up.

Otherwise I don’t even care at this point any more and this company is finally admitting they dun goofed too. The difference is Street Fighter isn’t a game you spend 100’s of hours building and grinding out characters because it’s a fighting game you can select any character to be and switch.

There hasnt been a single valid argument in this entire forum for why job resets are good. All im asking is for a good reason, why cant you give it to me?

As a game designer, you create a game design whereupon you intend perfect balance. That does not happen. Inevitable, players will find something you overlooked, or will develop patterns of behavior which you had not planned. These necessitate balance and even design changes as time goes on. As a developer, you should not (and will not) sacrifice balance for the many so that one player can keep his preferred playstyle. This may include changes to equipment requirements, changes to movement, or changes to other prerequisites (such as requiring a player to unmount before using an ability).

Not only that, but you generally cannot balance effectively as a designer if people cannot adapt their builds. Consider this example: There will always be some abilities which outclass others at the same role. There may be two such abilities available to a player with his given class selection. Which of the two abilities the player selects is almost universally merely a question of power. Now let’s say that the one not selected was terribly underpowered, and the one selected was terribly overpowered. If that power curve is reversed, then you as a designer have two poor options: the first is to leave the balance issue in, and the second is to hamstring the player who came along too early and selected the wrong ability which was the correct selection at the time but which cannot be changed.

There are a few ways around this, but they are mostly fall into three categories. The first option is skill resets, which most successful MMOs utilize. Blade and Soul, the most popular competitive MMO worldwide, allows unrestricted skill changes any time you are not in combat, and that decision is central to its 1v1-focused balance. The second is an class-inclusive leveling system, whereupon you can continue to level the older skills again to compensate. One example there is ArcheAge, where you can level all 10 skillsets to 55 and then select whichever 3 suit you at a given time. Again, PvP-focused game. The third option is essentially to prevent nontrivial build differences from arising at all by limiting choice. This is more typically seen in PvE-focused games, like Final Fantasy XIV’s approach.

Insofar as a game’s design can be wrong – that is, punishing for little or no benefit – preventing resets in Tree of Savior is essentially wrong. When there are no resets in a complex build system, players are required to research the effectiveness of their preferred builds beforehand, and gamble on the likelihood of changes later which would affect the usefulness of their builds. Remember that as a social game, selecting a weaker build affects not only the player’s experience against opponents but also the experience of players around him (who would rather not play hardmode) and the ostracizing impact of later balance changes. If I want to play a spear-and-pistol Corsair, only to have my abilities restricted in the interest of balance, what might have been a curious but passable build could leave me unable to actually enjoy the game. Remember: not all possible builds are necessarily viable at any given time (wtb: two-handed peco knight).

Furthermore, because effective builds are often less fun to level and require intense time investment, players become far more willing to use illicit means to compensate. Grind-heavy games have always been bot-heavy games. I have used this example before, but there were quite few people who actually played Lineage II despite that it boasted more than 500k subscriptions. Most players used bots. There was a similar problem with Silkroad Online. RO was notoriously botted. These are just a few of the examples, but it’s generally pretty predictable: if you ask a player to grind 400 hours a month to keep up with the latest competitive builds, he’s usually either going to cheat or quit.

There’s just so much wrong with the no-reset approach from a game design standpoint that it’s not even worth considering for most games. Rerolls are inevitable, and they are more likely to result in attrition when the transition is unpleasant. It is in the best interest of game balance, ongoing design, and sustainability that the present system be rethought.

3 Likes

Sorry, invalid. Still waiting for a real reason. Noone wants to tell me either. seems you dont actually have a reason.

When i said the thing you quoted i wasnt actually being serious. I was acting like the pro reset people who say the same thing to us even though we have been giving them reasons.

In reality i do see your reasons, but i do not want resets for reasons i and others have already mentioned.

Thank you for spending the time on your post though…

Even with radical changes, comes the balance act and the same logic continues as if it were Street Fighter. Switch to a new character, or utilize the ins and outs of your current character.

I see nothing wrong with having Job Resets as an OPTION. The problem with gamers today is they often have an issue with options. and this is one of such cases, where your best reason for not wanting someone else to have something is simply because you do not want it. and its okay, you’re a spiteful human being. Not everyone shares your narrow point of view

I dont see an issue with making Job Resets an untradeable CS only item that will set you back 20-30bucks per item. its no one’s business but theirs if they choose to spend money instead of remaking a character.

6 Likes

Or you can just…be like me and Re-Rolled an Archer over 15+ times cause mistakes LOL…until i finally got it right for me…Casual playing btw…

Reset every 6 months and only 2 rank.

You alreadly lost the moment you apologised, meaning you admitted that you were in the wrong. Your post is invalid.
We need resets, be it a free option ingame like in Blade and Soul or upon reaching a certain level like Dragons Nest or every time skills get updated like Phantasy Star Online 2 or a flat out monitary item reset like Elsword Online.
All of those f2p games have the option to reset, that’s one of the major reasons why those f2p games are still around today, reset items keep the veteran players happy and newbie players happy in knowing they can fix thier mistakes later down the line. Since it availiable for anyone to access/buy it doesn’t give anyone an unfair advantage and the only people i’ve seen against the idea in general are incredibly selfish and greedy people.

3 Likes

i like the idea that some builds are achievements in their own right, but at the same time i think if they sell class resets for real money it would be good for the development of the game. I think it would be best for everyone if they do monetize it as oppose to not doing it at all.

I was sorry that they were wrong, not that I did something or said something wrong. Your post is invalid.

We don’t need resets. All those other f2p games have skill resets, but we have those too. Also just because something works in one game doesn’t mean it will work in others.

Your post is invalid. Being sorry is admitting your own faults.
My previous post pointed out that f2p games that have resets tied to skills have worked in multiple cases, not just one.
You have not provided any counter-evidence to my claim, therefore your post is invalid, as it merely states your own personal opinion without any concrete evidence and personal opinions are not facts.