100, not 10.
And the game doesn’t have anything that demands such specialized party build.
I mean, Squire/Centurion are ‘support’, but to reach them you’d have to go through at least 4 ranks of offensive/defensive oriented classes, so it’s not like they can’t do damage at all, and in term of group benefit they’re arguably better than those pure-DPS classes.
It’s true but we don’t know anything about end game content and how it will be handled for now.
But as I said we still have time for all of that since we haven’t really played the final game yet and IMC seems to handle things well ib general for now so I’m not so worried about all of this. (Much more worried about the cash shop)
Because they’re on the same rank, one of the tricky aspect of the class system. Let’s make a lame analogy: the morning when you get dressed, you have to choose between a pair of trousers and a skirt. Choosing both is ridiculous. You got it? 
Like @FatePGN said. Yes it’s obvious, thank you guys, 100 good builds are better than 10 good builds. It’s pure logic guys. With the old system too, we had more odd builds than good builds. But now with the new system, with all the new possibilities, the ratio is even lower. It’s just maths. 
I added that odd builds can be fun too, because the point is NOT a matter of that. You could also had fun with the old system. As a reminder, when you progress in a game, generally you want to be more efficient, to “finish” all aspects of the game. That’s why if you want to test different things, you can start again several times, making different characters/scenarii. You can actually still start over and over of course, but the new system is so messy… Is it hard to understand that it need a few restrictions?
With a crap build, you cannot be as efficient/optimal/performant in a party than someone with a more suitable build. Logic too: in a war, you’ll make more damages with a bomb than with a slingshot (another analogy, just for you).
This is from your earlier post:
If you’re using made up number to justify your logic, then you’re already on the losing ground already.
Yes, because your demand for restriction is based on the expectation that people build ‘efficiently’, despite the people who are in favors of the new system having mix of both those whose opinion is ‘now my build is MORE EFFICIENT’ and those who don’t care about efficiency.
If you have your ‘efficient’ build already, good for you, how about stop trying to prevent other people from building theirs? And stop trying to set fire to your neighbor just because they don’t care about efficiency.
Not to mention that you DO NOT NEED ‘efficient’ build to ‘finish all aspects of the game’ (whatever that entails to you)
[quote=“trielav, post:458, topic:39433”]
Under the old system, they’d be disappointed with the 5th and 6th ranks. The DM/resurrect/krivis dilemma is an interesting choice, and all three choices justify a party slot. Removing that choice entirely dumbs things down. With only one from a tier, you can only get two of the three, so there’s still a hard choice to be made.
[/quote]It’s not interesting, it’s dumb. A class full of buffs that can’t be useful without another character of the same type (a second Cleric, that MUST be a Krivis). So you are taking 2 party slots to make one person decision useful.
Now we look at that Krivis. He wanted to be a Magic DPS Cleric, but he doesn’t like Sadhu, since punching things doesn’t feel like magic at all.
Krivis C2 is a must for Zaibas Attribute, which means he can’t go for Cleric C2 (stronger Cure) nor Bokor (Hexing + Effigy). Basically half of his build (assuming 6 Ranks) would not make any sense for what he wanted his character to be.
Yeah, the old system seems so healthy and fun.
[quote=“Luttie, post:461, topic:39433”]
It’s true but we don’t know anything about end game content and how it will be handled for now.
[/quote]PvE can be another matter, but for PvP i don’t think it will differ from now.
Glass cannon will suck, as well as full support (altho a bit less). Balance between damage and survivability will be the way to go.
[quote=“Arukado, post:462, topic:39433”]
Because they’re on the same rank, one of the tricky aspect of the class system. Let’s make a lame analogy: the morning when you get dressed, you have to choose between a pair of trousers and a skirt. Choosing both is ridiculous. You got it?
[/quote]You are just assuming the “old system” was the first and only one IMC thought about when developing the game, which isn’t true.
I doubt anyone would complain about this matter if the “new system” (that was even announced first as “how class advancement will work”) was the one released since the beggining.
The “old system” could have being used just to limit players on first betas so IMC could focus their data on more important things, just like how exp was limited on iCBT since their goal was not to test high level content to begin with.
So, unless you are a developer, stop assuming how ToS was/is meant to work.
Here is an analogy for you too:
At the age of 5 you can start playing soccer or ballet.
At 10 you can keep on soccer, start ballet, do karate or play an instrument.
At 15 you can do any of the others or go to a technical school learn a profession.
The class system can just work like this. They are not restricted decisions you make for that moment only (when getting a new Rank), but as you get more “mature” you can chose what to do from a bigger pool.
I can’t understand why everyone is saying there are crappy builds and good builds 'cause classes don’t synergize, if your class doesn’t synergise that’s just because you didn’t took the good skills combination and that’s all. That’s why theorycraft exist > Think hard and makes your classes synergize ^^
If people don’t want of you in their team because they’re sure you have a crappy build? Then just don’t play with them and play with other that’s all.
In term of Dps a 3circles Swordsman’s skill damages (example : Bash lvl15) or a 3 Circle Cataphract’s damages (Doom Spike lvl 10) are the same because of cooldowns. Doom Spike does 1812damages every 40sec, Bash does 292 every 6sec. In The cooldown time of doomspike you have the time to do 6.7bashes : That is 1956damages. And we can even say 7, because doom spike has a casting time too : so taht would be 2044damages every 40sec. Surely if you have Cataphract c3. Surely you could be Cataphract c3 + Swordsman C3 to double your dps, but to double your dps you will lose something like Squire support maybe? Or Rodolero’s Control? Or anything else 
A lot of these classes has pretty good skills and attributes. So it very easy create viable build with this system…
I guess fireball+ice wall+psychic pressure will work with this new system…
Fireball + pressure was nerfed on the second day of KR test server. Now pressure pushes fireball like a melee attack.
Wo that sux so HARD
Why recrut cyro in your team if you can have guy can be pyro and cyro ?
0 diversity in team
that sux
i hate this new system
I don’t have any efficient build yet, because the game is still on beta phase. Things change quickly all the time.
Well, yes, my bad, I must have misspoken… You don’t need to have an efficient build to finish a game but… Take an example: your team needs a tank/support, would you rather choose a pally or a krivis? The pally seems to be more efficient. Choosing between a Cleric/Priest/Pally or a Krivis/Sadhu/Pally? The first seems to be a better choice, right?
Can’t I express my thoughts like anyone else? Sure my point is based on how it was in the first place. I found it very limited, and the new one seems to be too much permissive IMO. Both were interesting though, but need calibrations IMO. Sorry to bother you with my impressions…
Pyro 3 with other rank combination is much better than normal Pyro 3… Sorry but your post felt like sarcasm xD
Why its so hard to understand this system 
If game has more good build viable then how it can suddenly make this game worser? Some people might take one rank just for few skill or even for 1 skill. Its your own fault if u create shitty builds… You can always learn from your mistake… This system is what makes Tree of savior special…
New system does not make party playing shitty and u need understand that Party have 5 char limits… So its good if one class can have same rank buffs…
It’s not about expressing your opinions, but how you did it.
At least to me, most of the time I got the impression you were saying the old system was better because it came first.
Then I tried to make the point of IMC thinking of both at the same time or even using the restrict one just to focus testing aspects, and made the analogy of why the progression being so permissive is not counter intuitive.
Sorry if I seemed too harsh, tho.
Um this sentence doesn’t have much strength as it describes anyone with an opinion on the game or any of its functions, which is everyone in these forums including you and me.
With that said the reason i liked the old system better is i felt the choices were harder and more involved because i had to give up classes to get the ones i wanted or i have to decide to carry on circles in a class to skip a rank i disliked my options in for that particular character. Or even dropping out a circle early to grab something i felt was more important. Long story short i find these difficult decisions make me more interested in my character then the ability to make anything. I feel like with this new system ill be building and disposing more characters due to the lack of involvement required.
But that’s just one mans opinion and im obviously in the minority here lol.
More choices is a good thing. Most people are not in the interest of making a bad build just because you could. In RO you could get 99 luck as a DPS class, but no one did that because it was known to be bad and all you had to do was look at the stats to see it.
If you want to be a diverse solo build fine. If you want to synergize and get into parties you will do your research and build accordingly.
For clerics going into monk it looks like not much has changed in the meta though. You either go cler2 -> dive2 -> monk2, or cler1 -> prst3 -> monk2 in the old way…i guess you could do cler2 -> prst2 -> monk2?
[quote=“thebloodyaugust, post:474, topic:39433”]
Um this sentence doesn’t have much strength as it describes anyone with an opinion on the game or any of its functions, which is everyone in these forums including you and me.
[/quote]Doesn’t have strenght because you are not seeing the context. I was refering to saying things like “ToS primary idea”, “how ToS is meant to be” or the like. Not that having an opinion is bad.
[quote=“thebloodyaugust, post:474, topic:39433”]
i had to give up classes to get the ones i wanted or i have to decide to carry on circles in a class to skip a rank i disliked my options in for that particular character
[/quote]This only works if you like a couple classes every one or two ranks. People that like mostly early rank classes only would feel gimped and uninterested to play later on. That’s why I was planning of only making a Wiz and an Archer before, but the new system allows me to also enjoy Warrior and Cleric.
Comparing Cleric/Priest/Pally vs Kriv/Sadhu/Pally (not even know how many circle in each)…
Maybe possibly depending on the rest of your party.
Priest (assuming C2)/Pally would have Sacrament/Aspersion/Blessing/Resist Elements as buffs, or even Divine Might/Saint (something like C3 Cleric, C2 Priest C1 Paladin)
That’s 4 or more buffs out of the 7 slots you can have.
This means those barb-meta swordsmen either have to sacrifice their own buffs or your buffs to use their own, dropping ‘efficiency’
If there’s Pyro, you can add Enchant Fire on there.
Then Squire’s weapon refine from town, cuz efficiency. but if there’s squire in your party then there’s the 4 food buffs too.
So in that regard, Krivis’s Daino might be necessary to actually have all buffs available (and get Priest’s buff from a Pardoner in town), then there’s Sadhu’s attribute that apply Deprotect on your enemy, reducing its defense so it can count as damage increase for your party
On the opposite side of things, C3 Cleric/C2 Priest/C1 Paladin ensures that all buffs can have Divine Might bonus level, even the one not from the cleric.
For example, lv 15 food table.
And then there’s the beefed up Safety Zone, which let your party go full throttle on boss while having to care for very few attacks.
As you can see, when you REALLY start to look into it deeply, there’s no easy ‘correct’ answer. At this point you either stop caring about optimal combination and roll with whatever or you starts working on spreadsheet, I picked the former btw, the latter is more of a guild for raiding thing.
Also let me say this: Forget about splitting a player into tank/dps/support, in ToS everybody do damage, even the so called full support build. Especially if you’re looking at full efficiency those people will be joining the fray. Even if a swordsman go for Squire C2 he’ll still have skills/attribute from his c1-4, even Krivis/Priest Cleric will have Cure, Safety Zone and Zaibas even if Heal is saved for allies.
Sure they don’t do the most damage, but for whatever they sacrificed in personal output, they make it up elsewhere, be it increasing overall group damage or just being self-sustaining.
That last one is a thing, btw, a group of 5 who all can take care of themselves can flow much easier than a group that is built based on piecing them together like puzzle that break apart if 1-2 pieces fall off (like the heavily-buffed group mentioned before losing so many buffs if the Krivis fail to keep his buff up)
Ah my bad i thought it was a argument against the whole opinion not just the phrasing.
Fair enough i have to admit before this system i would never have considered a wizard because i did not like the high ranks. But in the previous system it wasn’t a issue for me because as i said all the hard choices made me more interested in the character i built and liked i agree i would have made less characters but i probably would still have the same play time just all on the character i was invested in.
Also to this its not that 99 luck was a bad build, there was a time when it was good. But as more items came out you could hit the luk threshold you wanted with less base stats. This is more of a example in change of item power level.