It’s not about expressing your opinions, but how you did it.
At least to me, most of the time I got the impression you were saying the old system was better because it came first.
Then I tried to make the point of IMC thinking of both at the same time or even using the restrict one just to focus testing aspects, and made the analogy of why the progression being so permissive is not counter intuitive.
Sorry if I seemed too harsh, tho.
Um this sentence doesn’t have much strength as it describes anyone with an opinion on the game or any of its functions, which is everyone in these forums including you and me.
With that said the reason i liked the old system better is i felt the choices were harder and more involved because i had to give up classes to get the ones i wanted or i have to decide to carry on circles in a class to skip a rank i disliked my options in for that particular character. Or even dropping out a circle early to grab something i felt was more important. Long story short i find these difficult decisions make me more interested in my character then the ability to make anything. I feel like with this new system ill be building and disposing more characters due to the lack of involvement required.
But that’s just one mans opinion and im obviously in the minority here lol.
More choices is a good thing. Most people are not in the interest of making a bad build just because you could. In RO you could get 99 luck as a DPS class, but no one did that because it was known to be bad and all you had to do was look at the stats to see it.
If you want to be a diverse solo build fine. If you want to synergize and get into parties you will do your research and build accordingly.
For clerics going into monk it looks like not much has changed in the meta though. You either go cler2 -> dive2 -> monk2, or cler1 -> prst3 -> monk2 in the old way…i guess you could do cler2 -> prst2 -> monk2?
[quote=“thebloodyaugust, post:474, topic:39433”]
Um this sentence doesn’t have much strength as it describes anyone with an opinion on the game or any of its functions, which is everyone in these forums including you and me.
[/quote]Doesn’t have strenght because you are not seeing the context. I was refering to saying things like “ToS primary idea”, “how ToS is meant to be” or the like. Not that having an opinion is bad.
[quote=“thebloodyaugust, post:474, topic:39433”]
i had to give up classes to get the ones i wanted or i have to decide to carry on circles in a class to skip a rank i disliked my options in for that particular character
[/quote]This only works if you like a couple classes every one or two ranks. People that like mostly early rank classes only would feel gimped and uninterested to play later on. That’s why I was planning of only making a Wiz and an Archer before, but the new system allows me to also enjoy Warrior and Cleric.
Comparing Cleric/Priest/Pally vs Kriv/Sadhu/Pally (not even know how many circle in each)…
Maybe possibly depending on the rest of your party.
Priest (assuming C2)/Pally would have Sacrament/Aspersion/Blessing/Resist Elements as buffs, or even Divine Might/Saint (something like C3 Cleric, C2 Priest C1 Paladin)
That’s 4 or more buffs out of the 7 slots you can have.
This means those barb-meta swordsmen either have to sacrifice their own buffs or your buffs to use their own, dropping ‘efficiency’
If there’s Pyro, you can add Enchant Fire on there.
Then Squire’s weapon refine from town, cuz efficiency. but if there’s squire in your party then there’s the 4 food buffs too.
So in that regard, Krivis’s Daino might be necessary to actually have all buffs available (and get Priest’s buff from a Pardoner in town), then there’s Sadhu’s attribute that apply Deprotect on your enemy, reducing its defense so it can count as damage increase for your party
On the opposite side of things, C3 Cleric/C2 Priest/C1 Paladin ensures that all buffs can have Divine Might bonus level, even the one not from the cleric.
For example, lv 15 food table.
And then there’s the beefed up Safety Zone, which let your party go full throttle on boss while having to care for very few attacks.
As you can see, when you REALLY start to look into it deeply, there’s no easy ‘correct’ answer. At this point you either stop caring about optimal combination and roll with whatever or you starts working on spreadsheet, I picked the former btw, the latter is more of a guild for raiding thing.
Also let me say this: Forget about splitting a player into tank/dps/support, in ToS everybody do damage, even the so called full support build. Especially if you’re looking at full efficiency those people will be joining the fray. Even if a swordsman go for Squire C2 he’ll still have skills/attribute from his c1-4, even Krivis/Priest Cleric will have Cure, Safety Zone and Zaibas even if Heal is saved for allies.
Sure they don’t do the most damage, but for whatever they sacrificed in personal output, they make it up elsewhere, be it increasing overall group damage or just being self-sustaining.
That last one is a thing, btw, a group of 5 who all can take care of themselves can flow much easier than a group that is built based on piecing them together like puzzle that break apart if 1-2 pieces fall off (like the heavily-buffed group mentioned before losing so many buffs if the Krivis fail to keep his buff up)
Ah my bad i thought it was a argument against the whole opinion not just the phrasing.
Fair enough i have to admit before this system i would never have considered a wizard because i did not like the high ranks. But in the previous system it wasn’t a issue for me because as i said all the hard choices made me more interested in the character i built and liked i agree i would have made less characters but i probably would still have the same play time just all on the character i was invested in.
Also to this its not that 99 luck was a bad build, there was a time when it was good. But as more items came out you could hit the luk threshold you wanted with less base stats. This is more of a example in change of item power level.
There was a time when it was good on assassins but we are talking super early meta. 
Do you not see how your argument is favoring the new system? You replied to me saying that they would pass on classes they are uninterested in. What interests one person is different and subjective to the next. You can’t say that there is no one out there who wanted to play Krivis and Priest or Cryo or Pryo on the same character before the new system. The new system is a good thing for those people, that’s undeniable. If you wanted Krivis 3 in the old system, you had to select either Pardoner or Monk next. What if you didn’t want those classes?
Justifying a party spot? So every time you party, you expect to have 3 spots reserved for DM Cleric, Resu Priest, and Krivis dps/daino? If you’re on about justifying party spots then SwashBuckling justifies a party spot as well correct? Please tell me those cleric skills justify a party spot and not SwashB. You have only 1 spot left for whatever other class. Hmm, one could also argue that Call of Dieties justifies a party spot as well, not for raiding but at least for field grinding. Don’t tell me you’re expected some kind of perfectly balanced party every time.
And with the old system, you couldn’t get 2 of the 3 like you stated. You had to CHOOSE between Cleric2 for DM, Priest1 for Resu, or Krivis, all at rank 2. You could only get 1, a hard and restrictive choice. Now, you can Cleric>Priest1 for resu>Krivis1>Cleric2 for DM> Krivis 2 and 3. There is still a big choice in the fact that you will be going through the majority of the game, even into the endgame, with Rank 1 and 2 classes with their Rank 2 skill sets. There are people on this thread (yea this thread is mighty long now) and in the theory crafting thread talking about Full Support builds consisting of Cleric3, Priest3, and at least Krivis1 or Deiv1.
If you don’t want the new system in place because you don’t like it personally, then say so. I can respect that argument. Can’t say the same for arguments that are factually wrong however.
You cant really view ToS like this as it is not a Holy Trinity game (im assuming that all gamers know what that is). So your not really roll locked as bad also if im not mistake cant Resurrection be made into scrolls?
Are you serious? Wow, you know your analogy is lame yet you still make it. When you go out, you don’t take your entire wardrobe with you you silly person. In ToS, you take your entire arsenal with you at all times. You buy 4 shirts to wear later, but you never wear (the purpose of buying the shirts is to wear them at some point) all 4 shirts at once. You “buy” 4 skills from Circle 1 Swordie, you will then always have those 4 skills available at the ready. Even if you take em off your hotkey, you still have them at your disposal and can put em back on. Maybe you only bring out Pain Barrier for pvp, idk just an example. But you still have Pain Barrier available at all times. My heads hurts from explaining this lol.
Umm, you still can’t do everything in the new system and you still have to make new characters to play new classes. If I go Cleric, Krivis2, Priest3, I would have to make another character to experice Rank 3+ classes. More builds to play means even more alts. That is simple maths.
And yet again, the limited number of Ranks available to use is the restricting factor here. IMC started out saying there will be 10 ranks in the game eventually, they didn’t increase that. At least they haven’t said anything officially about it to the international audience directly. All they did was remove some locks in the old class system. We now have more builds within the same number of ranks.
This is old in the most recent Q&A they were talking about dropping to 8. So we have more class options and less ranks.
I was responding to @trielav who bought up how DM, Resu, and Krivis all justified party spots for themselves, they were saying that no one person should have all 3 of those on a single character. I didn’t quote that specific part, but you can view their entire comment by clicking the arrow in their quote I made.
Also, if you read my comment, you see that I don’t expect a balanced party every time. So no, I obviously am not viewing ToS as a trinity game. I clearly spoke against that in my comment.
I specifically said “IMC started out saying there will be 10 ranks in the game eventually, they didn’t increase that. At least they haven’t said anything officially about it to the international audience directly.” In fact, most of the new information we have now, to include this new class system, is from KCBT3 extended and this information was supposed to be secured behind NDAs. We also have intel from the Japan FGT and the Indo Beta test. Like I said, IMC didn’t directly give the international audience any information about increasing the ranks to accommodate the new system.
And just like how it dropped to 8 ranks from 10, it can change again by the time we get IBT2 of OBT. Also, thanks for supporting my argument. We have more combinations with less ranks to work with, so that should quell people that are saying we need more restrictions. And who knows things will change, yet again, by the time we get our next test.
@Arukado We have more class options and less ranks. Restrictive enough for you?
It’s not worse, it just balances the game in another direction, is normal for people to have different opinions about this.
The previous system’s restrictions made it more complex to build a character, this complexity comes in making more meaningful trade-off choices, is not the fact that they where balanced in any specific way, is the fact that you had to make big sacrifices to build your character, and that made the planning phase more meaningful, but now, even if you still have to make trade-off choices, they are not as critical as before.
I like this change since it gives more freedom when playing the game, even when making builds specifically to play in parties, and it also breaks the linearity of the game, since now you have to go back to the old maps if you want to backtrack, but I understand why some people liked the other one.
First of im impressed i found someone else who can see both sides, respect. That aside out of curiosity which do you prefer? If you stated earlier in the forum my bad hard to remember everything in this thread with how big its gotten.
Before I was just posting about the discussion I had with my GF about the system, she feels that since the previous system was more restricted, it was harder to build a “jack of all trades” character, making the game more “teamwork oriented”. I was showing her point because I was interested to see what other people thought about it.
This time i’m posting my personal opinion on the changes 
Right i remember now.
On a side note kind of amazing how heated this topic has gotten. Like i have my own personal preference between the two systems but is this really a change anyone would quit over if it stayed this way or reverted.
Yeah, sorry about that XD I should have posted it by myself but I’m not as good as Grillo in english!
Anyway, I have the feeling that IMC is trying to make the game so even with the new system you can’t do a “jack of all trades” character, which is a good thing for the people like me who like to play in party 
Never said it was better because it came first. The old system was nice, but very limited. It was kind of awkward for a game “with 80 classes” at first, but it has a certain logic of progression behind it.
The actual system seems nice too, giving more possibilities. It’s probably better yes. But I find it too much “complex”. Not difficult to handle, but now everything is unlocked… Sure it brings more options, customizable builds, more efficient builds, more fun builds too, but a lot more “less efficient” builds because of that…
I’m worried about how to balance that mess too (with little efforts from the DevTeam). It’s just an important aspect, because a well-balanced class system is a major factor for the success of a game like that.
@Spaghetti: In ToS (like in every game), depending on your role, you don’t have to take your entire arsenal with you, just the necessary/adequate one, or else you’ll be quickly overweight and you’ll become useless. You want to spend your skill points in every skill on the list, okay you can and then? You want to make an all-around healer/support? Okay, you can. But still, in the end, you’ll be surpassed by any other specialised healer. But sure, you’ll still be helpful for low-level parties. But you won’t be able to fulfil your role in higher levels. Just to say that no boundaries (except the rank ofc, but it always has been a limit) can be a dangerous idea.
The lame analogy was on purpose, to show you the boundaries. You want another one? You’re making a sandwich, you can add up to 50 ingredients in it if you want. Okay, you want to them all and… You can’t even finish to eat it. Or the taste will be awful. Or you want to “play it” softly and add just 5 ingredients? You’ll eat it okay, it was good… But you’re still hungry… You have to start over…
In a game (like IRL), you need some rules, some limitations. Or else… Too much freedom leads to chaos.
Just take this point of view as a small warning. I don’t want to see that game screwed (like anyone here)
Maybe, maybe not. We’ll see that when the system will be definitive. 