Tree of Savior Forum

[Need advice] "Guild Master" build

Class and Rank
#84

Just to know, What go be your status?

What you think about instead of Squire, why not Corsair?
Jolly Roger is really good too and Iron Hook + Keel Hauling combo is fun and bring utility too.

My build will be something like this if you wanna look (I’ll change things according to the patch notes):
My status will be Full Con ^^.

#85

@er_abrantes, If you are talking about Str / Dex / Cons stat, I’m not entirely sure yet. Perhaps it’ll be 1:1 Str and Cons, maybe I’ll just add Cons for 100 and put the rest into Str like @thailehuy suggested. It depends on where ToS is going in the future by seeing how do kToS develop first as it take times for new update to reach iToS.

Corsair is nice and all, but I don’t think Iron Hook or a Pirate itself fits a role that wield a shield. I meant, I don’t recall seeing a Pirate wear a shield before. At least not a traditional Pirate instead of something from One Piece.

#86

In the concept of Roleplay and reality I don’t see any pirate using shield I agree, but Jolly Roger is a good skill for money making and the Buff Aura is good too, its all about utility to the party, I don’t know if Battle Orders are Aura buff, if it was it should be a good combo with Jolly Roger, 2 Dmg Aura buffs is cool for party.

And yeah, we need to see what go happen on the future, cause i saw something about 10 member party, on the future probaly will have raids too and as Guild Playing we should look for the Wars between other players to see what is going to happen.

#87

Those build are actually cool. Is there any place where you keep all the build (with description such as in these post)? I would really like to refer to those if I decided to play swordie one day.

#88

Truthfully thanks to this thread I have a great idea to try in kOBT, for a new pirate type build. So to all involved people I’d like to say thank you for the informative posts and sharing ideas :smile:

This will be the build I go with if any are curious.

#89

I usually keep those in the Swordsman: All classes and best builds thread, but I only touch on the ones I consider the “best” builds, in the sense that they are the most efficient ones. But if you ask on that thread for a build that isn’t on the list, I will reply and make a custom list just like I did in here.

@lostjossie

[This is going to be a very long post:

  • The first part is just my take on the historic use of spear, rapier and shield for “role-play” purposes.
  • The second part is exclusive to the build you posted with possible modifications.
  • And the third part is my take on the build and the game.

]

###Part 1

So only Sword, huh? I assume this is mostly due to “role-playing” reasons?

If I could convince you otherwise, then I would say that Spear+Shield has been a very common combat style since ancient times:

  • The Macedonians used Hypaspist (“Shield bearers”) as their elite warriors on their front-lines, who used large shields and spear. They were entrusted with the most difficult missions by Alexander.
  • The Spartans who fought during the age of heroic warfare tactics also used a large shield and spear. A very interesting thing about their culture is their shields, who were passed down from generation to generation as it was considered a heirloom. Not only that, but the phrase “come back with your shield or on it” was commonly used, as dropping your shield on the battlefield was disgrace and they would be labeled as deserters.
  • The Greeks used Hoplites as the front-line elite warriors on their phalanx formations. They also used large shields and spear, and evolved from heroic warfare tactics to very disciplined and strategic ones. This refined combat style focused on protecting those around them with their shield as keeping the phalanx safe and in place was the most important thing.
  • The Macedonian and Greeks also used Peltastas, which you might be familiar with. Unlike Hoplites, they used less expensive equipment and were lightly armored as this position was often given to the poorer people from society, often sent to die first on the battlefield. They were known for their Pelt shield, which had a crescent shape. While Peltastas originally used a javelin and sword as their main weapons, some armies started using spears which gave birth to the Thureophoroi, who replaced the Peltasta and used the spear, javelin and sword as weapons.
  • Many other civilizations also used the Spear and Shield, like African warriors who used the Assegai as their main weapon, and even in Europe it stayed as a main combat style for medieval times.

Now, ignoring this history thing, you might be happy to know that there are not very big shields in the game, and Aias (the best shield in the game), is small and round and looks fantastic with spear and rapier.

Speaking of rapier, while I agree that the rapier was generally used alone for civilized duels, there is a style that used Rapier+Rotella (shield), which looks exactly as how rapier and Aias look in the game (and it looks great).

###Part2

Now, moving to the build you linked, here is how I would make it different:

Swordsman->Peltasta C2->Rodelero C2->Squire->Templar

While overall it looks pretty much the same, here is my reasoning on the differences:

  • There is no point in ever giving more than 1 point to Thrust, as it scales terribly. I would instead give that point to Gung Ho, which is far more useful. (Thrust and Bash are so bad, that even though I get them on all my builds, I never use them).
  • You might see that I prefer to take level 5 Gung Ho, taking points from Pain Barrier. This is because Gung Ho plays a very important rule on the early levels of a Swordsman, as in combination with Concentrate it is what carries us onto the next ranks, and with the attribute it provides a very reliable source of extra damage that any build, especially this one, need.
  • One might also argue that there is no point of taking Gung Ho since Guardian will be used instead. But this is wrong, as Guardian is almost never needed and using Gung Ho is the better option to use most of the time through all stages of the game. Guardian is only used during very particular scenarios.
  • Speaking of Pain Barrier, the skill description is misleading. I think that I can speak for most people when I say that Pain Barrier does nothing against knock-backs/downs and only mildly helps against staggering, but overall doesn’t provides any meaningful difference unless you are playing on a really high ping or something like that. This skill isn’t very useful, and you won’t be using it most of the time.
  • Other than that, I gave the extra points on Rodelero to Shield Shoving instead of Shield Bash, as it is used more often.

However, with the limitation of only using a Sword+Shield, there are other options I would consider:

Swordsman->Peltasta->Hoplite->Rodelero C2->Squire->Templar

  • This is pretty much the same build you posted, with the only difference of changing Peltasta C2 with Hoplite.
  • In my opinion, the only reason to take Peltasta C2 is for going into Peltasta C3, as High Guard is a terrible skill and the only thing you really get from C2 is 5 extra targets from Swash Buckling.
  • You don’t have to use a Spear, as Pierce, Stabbing and Synchro Thrusting all can be used with Sword+Shield. But you still have the option of using a spear if you ever change your mind.
  • You still get to use the boss-killing skills from Hoplite, and an overall higher damage output compared to the other build.

Following the same restriction of only using Sword+Shield, then there are other paths that you could also explore, mainly focusing around the Barbarian class:

Swordsman->Peltasta->Barbarian C3->Squire->Templar
Swordsman->Peltasta->Barbarian C3->Rodelero->Templar
Swordsman->Peltasta->Barbarian C2->Squire->Rodelero->Templar
Swordsman->Peltasta->Barbarian C2->Squire C2->Templar
Swordsman->Peltasta->Barbarian C2->Rodelero C2->Templar

  • Barbarian skills are universal, which means that they can be used with a Sword+Shield.
  • You not only get way more damage by picking up Barbarian, but two of those high damage skills can also stun for 2 seconds, with overheat, which is up to 8 seconds of stun if used sequentially (and their AoE range is pretty decent too).
  • You can decrease the physical defense of enemies around you.
  • You can pick Squire, Rodelero or both for the build, as it is very flexible.
  • You have the option of also using a Two-Handed Sword if you ever change your mind.

###Part 3

I understand this “Defender” or even " Guardian" build you are trying to make, I really do. It is a common class/character/build that we often find in other games. Unfortunately, this role not only is unneeded in Tree of Savior, but it also doesn’t exist, at least not within the limitations you have put on yourself.

The problem is the game itself.

In Tree of Savior, this “Defender” role got split in half:

  • The first part was given to the Swordsman tree, as they get the only real utility the entire tree has, which is Swash Buckling to AoE taunt.
  • The other part was given to the Cleric tree, where all the protection is really at. They even got the Paladin class, which on most other games would have easily been a Swordsman class.

If you wanted to fulfill this “Defender” role, as someone who your party feels safe with around, then I would just tell you to switch to Paladin, as this class would give you exactly that. But since it is not on the Swordsman tree, you are not going to have an AoE taunt, making it slightly more difficult but not impossible to be the tank.

However, here comes the second limitation you have imposed on yourself, which is being a guild leader, only available to the Templar class in the Swordsman tree.

The game is not allowing you to build the type of character you are really trying to have, as the limitations it has make it impossible for it to exist. At least in full effect.

Now, you might think that instead you are going to protect your party members with your CC, but the reality is not like this:

  • The real protection comes from the Cleric tree, and all of the other classes don’t even need your protection since they have much, much better and meaningful CC than you do.
  • They don’t need your Swordsman help to stay safe, as you don’t really provide anything for them to do so. Just look at the entire Swordsman tree, we don’t even have auras. And while we have a party buff like Jolly Roger, the combat stats are so insignificant that it doesn’t make any difference at all.
  • The best CC available to the Swordsman tree is in the Barbarian class, as it has the real stuns.
  • You might think that other CC available on other Swordsman classes is going to be useful, but it isn’t:
  • Most mobs in the game die really fast, using CC on them makes no difference and it is just a waste.
  • Mobs that are harder to take down, like dungeon ones, are immune to your other CC anyways, especially the big ones.
  • The CC that really makes a difference comes from the Wizard and Cleric trees, their CC’s are the ones doing the real work, while your Swordsman CC is pretty much doing nothing.
  • Which takes me to the Rodelero class, which you might think provides good CC, but it also isn’t the case in reality:
    • Montano is a 1 second stun, which is outclassed by the Barbarian stuns.
    • Tough mobs are immune to knock-back/down, so the skills that do this don’t work on them. And the mobs that they do work on, is better to not use it at all, as it will send them away from the AoE damage the rest of your party is doing and no one likes that.
  • Shield Bash can often work against you, as the debuff it applies could actually end up making the mob stronger and more difficult to deal with. So it either, doesn’t make any difference or makes it harder for your party.
  • There is nothing else on the Rodelero kit but Slithering, but there is not a single scenario where you need to use it in the game.
  • There are other CCs like Squire’s Arrest and Corsair’s Iron Hook, but those are only PvP skills, as there is no real reason to use them in PvE except “for the lulz”.
  • If you look at the entire Swordsman tree, you are not going to find anything that truly makes you tankier, even on the Peltasta and Rodelero classes. They have High Guard (which is terrible) and Slithering (not ever needed), but nothing else. Your tankyness will come from your equipment.

One might think that this could change in the future, but I really don’t think this is going change.

Through interviews and blog posts, you can see that the creators of Tree of Savior want a game where people are not forced to follow certain build to be useful in the game. This is also the reason why higher Rank classes are so much stronger than the lower ones.

What does this mean, though?

If they don’t want to force people into taking specific builds for certain roles, then they have to keep every content in the game easy enough for any build to be able to get through it.

With so many levels and ranks available in the game, you can’t ever make it so people following “inefficient” builds can’t progress through the game. If it was this way, and people found that their build is useless, then they are just going to feel frustrated and even possibly quit after investing so many hours on their character. Bad for business, of course.

On a game where every build is allowed to get through the content it has, it means that situations that require a specific build will never exist in the game. For example, a situation that requires Slithering is never going to exist, because by doing so you would force people into taking Rodelero C2 in their builds, which limits their build freedom and it is not something they are looking to do.

How does this reflect on practice?

Well, since they are not forcing anyone into a specific build/role, keeping the game content easy enough for any build to get through it, then we end up in a situation where dealing the most damage becomes the most important aspect of the game, as every mob and boss becomes just a punching bag. Which is exactly the current state of the game.

This is because more damage means faster killing, which translates into faster exp and more silver/rewards and most people only care about that.

If you have read through that entire wall of text, perhaps you have a better understanding on what type of game Tree of Savior really is in it’s current state, and while you might be disappointed as it could not be the game you were expecting it to be, I thought it was important to type all of this.

Even if it changes nothing for your particular case, other people reading it might change their mindset when approaching this game.

In the end, you can try to force a role that doesn’t exist in the game, and pick whatever build you want to do. But if your goal is to help your party/guild members, then I hope I could explain the reasons why making a “tanky” build actually goes against that and instead hurts your party, as this game, Tree of Savior, is a game where damage is the best way to help your allies and keep them safe as a Swordsman (you can do it differently on other classes).

1 Like
#90

Just adding to the history part, Chinese has a long history of using both spear and shield in war too. In fact, in most war, spear and shield is one of the better choice before missle weapon became dominant due to the long range.

#91

Polearms in general have always been the more popular weapon for the frontlines due to easy to see reasons such as their range and ease to use. A fresh spearman will still be able to provide a lot of complications to swordsman no matter how good they are as far as said spearman is smart enough to use their range properly, which can easily produce hilariously sad situations.
There’s also the ridiculous variety that can exist in polearms, this video is a particular favorite of mine on the matter.

Range is logically the reason projectiles where, well, are such a big thing after all. And why today we develop weapons focusing on making them be able to reach further and with more strenght, also precision but that goes without saying.
When firearms managed to become common enough to be given to soldiers in the battlefield they greatly shifted the nature of combat.

#92

That was a pretty fun and interesting video. Hopefully we will get some good looking Polearms for Dragoon to use.

@lostjossie

I just saw this guide on the forums:

Which covers his experience using the Swordsman->Peltasta C3->Squire C2 build, while using different stat distributions as well as his take on the skills and both classes.

Overall we share the same opinions when it comes to Peltasta, Squire and STR/DEX/CON, but it is always nice to have more people’s perspectives on the matter.

#93

@Cathexis Sorry for the extremely late reply, was busy with life until today. Always have tons of stuffs to do when it comes to the end of the year.

I’ve read through everything and it is quite a letdown after knowing the nature of ToS. I guess I’ll still try this “Defender” build first and see how it goes and if it’s truly not a role that provides any benefits to the party at large, I still have the choice to remake another character, I guess. On the bright side I might give some personal experience on the said build to the community in the end of the days.

Well, let’s say if it indeed doesn’t work, as a plan B, what would you think of a Templar who uses 2h sword or 2h spear instead? I have a bad habit of either all or nothing, which means if I decided to stick with one end, chances are I won’t feel natural if I have to swap weapons.

Edit : As a slight rant, tales of zestiria’s story is such a disappointment. It seems like they try to enforce some “dark side” of real life human nature but it just doesn’t works in a vibrant, colourful fantasy world with all these colourful “pure” souls or whatnot, unless it’s some dark fantasy medieval setting then it’ll be at least acceptable. The way they treat the “main protagonists” is the worst kind I ever saw.

#94

The problem with 2H weapon builds is that you cannot use Swash Buckling unless you swap to a 1H weapon, and if you absolutely don’t want to do that, then you are forfeiting your only contribution to every PvE party.

I don’t know, in my opinion it is never worth it to refuse to swap weapons, but I understand that there are people playing this game with that mentality.

Luckily,the only 2H Spear build you can go with is Cataphract, since Dragoon shares the same rank with Templar. This would allow you to stick to 2H if you want to, but also be able to change to 1H if you ever change your mind.

On the other side, it is more tricky making a 2H Sword build. You could entirely drop Peltasta to pick up Highlander and go into the Barbarian and Doppelsoeldner route, but later on you won’t have the ability to change your playing style if you decided that using only 2H is not something you want to keep on doing.

In the end, it is better to take Peltasta C1 for every build, just in case you change your mind later on. I think it is a fine investment to make and won’t hurt your 2H build much.

But there is also not much point in worrying about that for now. As you decided to try your originally planned build first, then go with a different build IF you feel the need to. By the time we are at that point, many months may have already passed, maybe more classes are available or the current ones might have been changed, or the game simply has more content or something. We will see then.

#95

Gonna cut in to ask just for the lulz, but what are some ideal tanking builds that can Tank and do great damage since that seems to be what everyone wants out of a tank in ToS?

#96

@Cathexis I doubt I’ll be a slow leveler but yeah, perhaps it’s a bit too early for plan B now.
Happy new year though. :smile:

1 Like
#97

You are right, i was a tank full CON, some ppl were trying to tank using DEX or just DPS stat, and was a joke, all runing like chickens!!! let the real tank TANK!!!, if u have a provoke skill you are not a tank, you need to be a meatball for those damage. need high hp, need high def, high block. And need to lure the whole MAP!!! not just 6 or 8 mobs.

I was Swor/Pel/Pel/Rod/Rod/? was really good.

Byebye!

#98

Might wanna lay off the grass a bit there bud.

So, whats a good tank build that can soak dmg and dish out enough to keep said threat?

#99

Tbh squire/templar is a huge pain in the butt. The build I recommend is Sword1/Peltesta1/Hoplite1/Cata1

  • Peltesta gets you into dungeons and makes soloing less painful thanks to swashbuckling. Both combat skills are pretty terrible. They also can’t be used with Spear+Arde. Swashbuckling can though.

  • Stab and Pierce are amazing thanks to amount of hits. Without this your going to be taking about 15 years per boss during squire/templar.

  • Cata gives bonus stats for riding and lets you use 2hand spear which can be better than 1hand and dagger after certain levels.

I plan to end the build with squire/squire2/templar1/squire3/templar3

Squire 3 gets a pretty good attack ability

Stats - Just Str and as usual chug sp/hp potions all day for fastest leveling and spam attribute for stabbing whenever you have silver.

#100

does templar skills work even though not a guild master? like summon guild member? or warp to guild member?

#101

no it doesnt

#102

aww , could have been convenient with the skills

#103

i know, imagine all the posibilities

but imc dont see it