Tree of Savior Forum

My problem with most MMOs

Off-Topic
#1

Hi all!

I’ve been playing games for more than 20 years, not that this makes me more entitled than the next guy, but between playing/modding/programming sort of learned my way around what makes a great game.

Maybe its just me but it seems that games as of late have not been trying to evolve, or up the stakes a bit. Maybe its just me getting old :smile:

Anyway, had some time to kill and wanted to put my ideas and ‘reasoning’ in order, so I came up with this. I hope its at least a bit informative if nothing else, and should anyone know of a game that doesn’t go downhill in half the listed aspects, please mention as I would like to try it. :wink:

My biggest issue with MMOs -> CARBON COPY design.
“a replica of a person or group that lacks any sort of originality or unique thought”
“a near or exact duplicate of a given person or thing”

I’ll try to break it down and detail as much as possible.

Make your character, and then choose a class.
(Could argue that games with intelligent design don’t even need classes, since good evolution is by nature multi-branching and open ended: if you aim for a heavy armored strong 2-handed hammer wielding warrior, thats where the sum of your building choices take you.)

Character build breaks into passive/active components.
Further systems like itemization are used to complement and make character evolution more rich/diversified.
I’ll only be using itemization for ease of understanding, but some games have A LOT MORE than just itemization to refine character build/evolution (seems like PETS system in ToS fits this category).

So in order lets visit: passive - active - itemization.

What does passive character building covers?
Everything that affects a character 100% of the time, under normal conditions.
Examples: Allocating/raising attributes, +30 to ice damage, can dash at no cost with a 60 seconds cooldown, has 8% chance to dodge single target spells, (or getting more complicated) if damage taken from a single source exceeds 20% of total hp each additional % grants 1 strength point that runs out at a rate of 1 point per second until strength returns to normal - this ability stacks with itself.

Problems with most MMOs:
-don’t TRULY feature passive character build.
-employ some sort of traits system with little options and “soul” to it. (Few choices married to unbalance, everyone in a spec chooses the same things.)
Lack of passive diversification is the shortest path to CARBON COPY.

Example of a game that does it right: (video has brief explanation)


(basically follows a model from FF10, but it is greatly improved upon, way to go!)

What does active character building covers?
Everything that must be manually performed/used, that is not done automatically.
Example: Variety of attack types or mini-combos for basic attacks/spells. And skills, specially skill variation or rotation Skills used to “mimic” passives such as auras for example, do count but are not the ideal to focus on when going for active gameplay content.

Problems with most MMOs:
-don’t feature a variety of basic attacks/spells.
-don’t feature mini-combos or mixing basic attacks with skills/specials/passives/itemization (or other systems).
-few skills per class, on top of that grant ALL the skills, no choosing/branching/specialization needed.
-rotations where a setup is 90% of the time better than others, everyone goes same skills, same rotation.
Again its trends to CARBON COPY.

I don’t know of a game that does good in here, all above problems considered.
(Path of Exile would be an example of what NOT TO DO, since its basically choose a skill and spam it until your eyes burn.)

Itemization. Yup, its all about the gear. Its intelligent design can lead/complement character building into a never ending spiral of possibilities.

Problems and oh boy get ready for a HUGE list, MMOs suck at itemization:
-don’t change character appearance/model based on what is equiped.
-little variety of models/textures/animations for item types.
-little variety of usable gear for a range of levels, many MMOs place “grade” on a gear and you’re stuck with that for 6~10 levels until the next grade, completely restrictive and dumbed down itemization (my pet peeve!).
-loot tables that have the player granted for life to spend his days collecting crap or small components, never some useful gear or valuable item.
-don’t feature different types of gear (normal/magic/rares/sets/uniques/whatever).
-don’t stack special characteristics on top of gear types. Talking about properties such as etheral, low/high quality, durable, socketable, craftable, corrupted & etc, these things that affect an item despite its type and mods.
-low quantity/types/randomization of mods in items, coupled with mods that are dull, tasteless and uninsteresting.
-crafting systems that slow/reduce itemization to such a degree that it goes full boring (its basically upgrading the same gear over and over).
-lack of usables, consumables, utilities, trading system and economy.
Did anyone notice the pattern to CARBON COPY design?

I could bring Path of Exile up again since it does amazing in the field, its trading is easy and quick to learn, the complexity and variety of itemization (plus uniques!) add special flavor even to low level or cheap builds, each class has a wide range of possibilities, even people in the same spec will often have VERY different stuff.

But lets go with Diablo 3, beacause I like how many slots for gear it has, and the way different specializations can be chosen for each active skill: (video has small explanation)

(Yes quite aware my two examples are not MMOs, thats probably why I have a problem with MMOs in the first place, they cant get character building done -the right way- or “the way I want to play” :sunglasses: , but this is not entirely subjective! Hope the points mentioned do showcase on the why.)

Lastly, I do fully encourage devs to “port” systems from other games an adapt to their own, whenever I see it, its usually a more evolved version that amazingly complements gameplay!

Anyway, thats it for now :blush: (though I could go on all day!)

Thanks to those who endured, love YA!! :kissing_smiling_eyes:
Leave a reply if you have considerations in the subject, I’ll be sure to read and reply if able!

8 Likes
#2

< Did not endure.

  • Your arguments are valid.
  • Opinions opinions, yey. (preference)
  • Nice to know your perspective on things.
  • Bullet points are cool.
  • TL,DR : Variety and aesthetics matter is basically what you’re trying to say, ye?
#3

Now don’t lie to me, I know you endured :kissing_heart:

I’m actually breaking down more or less exactly how the games that are good in variety do it, and the ones who are not… errr… dont do it :laughing:

There are many other things I could mention but didnt, like for example when theres that armor, but a player is using THAT special version of it, and shows because the different details and colors, its always so cool when games bother to identify in such a micro yet amazing level.

2 Likes
#4

The aesthetic details do help.
It’s probably what draws me most to GW2.
All the little things.

Still, I imagine that takes a lot of time and it’s quite unreasonable for a lot of games to find value in doing this when it’s much more profitable otherwise. They are on a budget, sadly. >:

1 Like
#5

I quit GW2 because of the itemization, got to the point I felt like blah, too scarce options. I do miss it though, few MMOs can compare. Some of the best job I’ve seen -if not the best- in world/lore presentation and making the world/people feel alive.

Granted I never worked on a game, but in the modding scene we usually see those special 1 persons that alone release a mod with a full new system or many textures/cosmetics, for sure they didnt do it overnight, but has one wondering what an entire team of game designers do all day :blush:

would also wager that time spent on improving the game always returns a profit when done right, but yeah it can take a while until people in general start to recognize good work (thats why I favor copying systems that work, PoE is basically Diablo2 + FF7 materia system + FF10 sphere grid, started small and unnoticed).

#6

Combat and severe lack of character customization is always lacking in mmos, combat never feels as it should, a game that does combat well is the souls series and should be taken as an example for future mmos, every swing matters, situations are dire, if you mess up you’ll most likely suffer.

Another game that does combat pretty well in a sci-fi setting is Lost Planet, rather Lost Planet 2, fighting huge monsters felt really intense, you would also have a quite a bit of different options to tackle every situation, of course as the game aged, the best way to handle every situation was defined through trial and error, it was always fun to fight every battle differently.

Dynasty warriors combat is not that rewarding either, it’s far from intense, however the character customization has really improved since the first empires, it should also be taken as an example for future mmos, as should the customization from GW2 and it’s transmutation allowed for far more individuality and customization.

Many mmos do both of these horribly, even modern and teased mmos do it horribly.

One other I forgot to mention which is very rewarding in combat and intensity would be Shadow of the Colossus, although there were specific spots to stab so not really that great.

1 Like
#7

Nice analysis!

[quote=“giiiirrrrrr, post:1, topic:40312”]
Problems with most MMOs:-don’t feature a variety of basic attacks/spells.-don’t feature mini-combos or mixing basic attacks with skills/specials/passives/itemization (or other systems).-few skills per class, on top of that grant ALL the skills, no choosing/branching/specialization needed.-rotations where a setup is 90% of the time better than others, everyone goes same skills, same rotation.Again its trends to CARBON COPY.

I don’t know of a game that does good in here, all above problems considered.(Path of Exile would be an example of what NOT TO DO, since its basically choose a skill and spam it until your eyes burn.)
[/quote]I think Blade & Soul could be put as an example?
Even tho all skills get unlocked for you at max level, you have some points to alocate and upgrade internal “trees” most skills have (yeah, each skill has its own tree). You can’t upgrade more than one branch inside a tree and can’t upgrade a full tree for every skill you have.

This upgrades can give more damage, resource management, buffs. debuffs or change the skill completely. This changes your combos, since some skills need the enemy to be stunned, knocked, choked, on air or something else to be used.

Some skills need you to be on those conditions to be used and they act as counters/releasers. This way, on PvP mostly, there isn’t a faceroll rotation to mindlessly perform.

I think they do a good enough job with equipments (chose your weapon and accessories from 3~ of your level range; body slot changes your outfit and doesn’t have stats). But class paths are locked and even for some races only. :stuck_out_tongue:

Also, I don’t like Diablo 3 for that spot. It could be before, but now you either have a set or you are useless. Kanai’s Cube is only a false solution for the problem, making normal legendaries less dead, but you still need sets to do well…
But yeah, they still have a big pool to “chose” from.

#8

What exactly is the name, I figure that searching for souls series could bring a lot of stuff or even lead me to the wrong game. Wanna have a look, and most other games you guys mentioned, I always thought that Blade & Soul was only about seeing “bouncing tops” :yum: in different costumes… but maybe there is something else to the game than that, lol

I played D3 for 4 months after release and gave up, never went back. Placed that video as example because it shows itemization in a fast approach and to those who don’t play D3 (myself included) its easy to get, plus that video later shows some skill specializations, wich are nice too since each player can setup differently, adds diversity :wink:

#9

Fromsoftware souls, blade and soul is just down right dreadful.

#10

There is a problem with the examples you used while both of those games offer a lot of choice in builds, they are also games with big balance issues were a few abusive builds stand head and shoulders above the rest (last time i played them anyway). Mind you balance isn’t a big deal when it comes to pve (AI’s cant complain) but its more of a touchy subject for players focused on pvp.

#11

This is due to players with the most free time going through and min/maxing builds, and then other players following guides created by those players. This happens to all different types of games besides just MMOs, and trying to balance things with patches will only change which builds/classes are the “best” and most used, which is how the metagame is formed.

9 skills in a class a bit excessive?
#12

Agreed!

Balance is a goal that needs constant refining and tunning, PvP heavy games (MOBAs) each few months aim to re-balance heroes/items/gameplay to reach a more even/competitive field. Although games have balance issues, more options are granted to be harder to balance, but addictingly more fun to create characters and go theorycrafting/customizing as you evolve (besides if there were no balance attemps, building/theorycraft would stagnate and depend entirely from newly introduced items).

In games that focus on PvE and PvP this ain’t a bad thing entirely, helps diversify builds who focus/cover each area, a game with intelligent design could apply gear/skill setup that is optimal for PvE and another for PvP, allowing players to modify setups, this broadens the horizons to pursuit as player progresses instead of following the straight line w/ no questions asked. Balancing skills towards PvP is often easier, mostly testing and tunning and in(parent)thesis (does 30% less damage to other players).

Different builds should each have slight different aims/purposes or gameplay styles, wich is the reason for having/making different builds anyway, however in the matter of a setup/rotation that is the"best" and most used, ideally it calls for insta patch and better balacing, no build should ever be by a long shot better than the others, if its slight better thats no problem, most players will gladly sacrifice the slight part to follow their own building/gameplay style.

#13

I agree and this is true but we have a hell of a lot of class combinations to keep us busy for quite some time to wait for new content (Assuming ToS was ever perfectly balanced but it never will be)

1 Like
#14

Yup!
As Abathur from Stacraft2 HotS would say “Perfection is a goal that keeps changing, what is perfect today will not be tomorrow.”

I didn’t meant this topic as a critic for ToS but more as “pulling the ear” of MMO scene in general :blush:
Hoping ToS comes out a very good game thats why we’re all here!!

1 Like
#15

Great Post.

I’ve always been for increasing the amount of customization available to players in this game (if you look at the threads I’ve started you’ll notice many wonky suggestions, all for more choices for the player), for I feel like that’s what could make this game shine the best. There will be no point to the ToS’s main sell-point of “80classes” if in the end everyone figures out the “best build” for each of 80 classes (which isn’t hard to do in this day and age) and begins to tell everyone to follow that build like it’s ‘the way to play’.

I too played my fair share of MMO’s and LoL and basically, I hate it when I realize that someone out there has a CARBON COPY of my character. I basically then think, “Well then what’s the point of me playing then? Me and him are just identical cogs in a machine. It’s just a matter then of who outplays has faster fingers on the keyboard.” The game becomes something like a job then and less like a unique, fun experience. I have better things to do than figure out who operates a game better than the other.

#16

they probably could just make all the skills and attributes available to everyone. just get skill points as you level. i was expecting this game to be a lot more like that from the blog posts they made before any betas; like how they implied you quest in the world to find you jobs to get the skills…

#17

Its more or less what I meant when saying good evolution is by nature multi-branching and open ended.

But a game has to be designed from scratch to work out this way, trying to convert an already established charatcer/class system is arguably painful to balance, and the end results wont be as satisfactory.

#18

Problem with MMORPGs nowadays is that people who are willing to think outside of the box can’t get funding while those who choose to copy existing elements get the money.

#19

I think i agreed all of what you said (giiiirrrrrr).
Well … CARBON COPY = TOXIC (and most of the time are Pay2Win)

#20

The second I saw PoE used as an example of an MMO I stopped reading, and invalidaded everything I had already read. Path of Exile is not an MMO. You can, at most, ever play with 3 other people. That is not massively-multiplayer. Not to mention that most MMOs also contain progressive, permanent character progress. In PoE you lose any and all progress upon death, and if you play in softcore mode there’s literally no point to the game, as you’ve removed the main mechanic of the game.

PoE is by no means a bad game, I enjoyed it for a while myself. But it is not an MMO, neither is League of Legends. They are simply games that are online.