Tree of Savior Forum

My Final Feedback: Goodbye for Good ToS

Gameplay Feedback General Feedback
#1

Ok… i’ve bought my founder package because i wanted to support game and developers and i don’t regret it… i’ve played this first weeks, i’ve been active on the forum to give feedback and suggestions as to how the game could be bettere, some were liked other were not, as usual.

But at the end of these first weeks i’ve come to the conclusion that ToS, as it is now, is not a game i’m willing to spend time and money on.

And yeah you can tell me “ok then see you, goodbye, go away already” as usual… no worries i will, but since feedback is required by the ToS team i will give my final one neertheless.

I will not talk about bugs, nor about lag or server issues: i’ve espected every single one that happened since it was a first release and i’m firmly convinced all these things need time to be fixed so… wathever.

What i’m going to talk about tho is the fact that the game seems to be designed by someone that has absolutly no idea of what “fun” means.

Tree of Savior has all the right features that a game should have to be fun… implemented in the most stupid way i’ve have ever seen in an online game.

Graphic & Sountrack:
I really have nothing negative to say about these first two… they are both a great work of art.

Classes:
Classes customization in this game is absolutly awesome! Or at least it would be if most of the skills weren’t clearly tought for the actual lvl cap of 280 without scaling instead of beeing tought for the future lvl cap of 600. The way most skills are at the moment will make them be useless when the lvl cap will rise to 600 forcing the dev team to redesign them from scratch in an absurd work that could easely be avoided.

This also mean that when new lvls will be implemented, a great majority of the builds people are using now will probably be useless BUT there’s no way to respec.

Long story short… the people will create characters based on the current game state, the game will change itself making such builds useless, the players will be stuck with useless classes because there is no respec… this will potentially be an issue… but now i want to focus on present issues.

The fact that if someone mess up a build he has to completely reroll is really game breaking… expecially since, with the class system as it is now, it’s extremly easy to mess up at higher lvls.

I know that most of people say “Plan before hand” but those people should be remembered that we do not have an “in game stat app” like we have on fan sites and it’s not like a player that will see ToS on steam will think “oh… let me do a google research to see if i find an external website that will allow me to think my build beforehand”.

The point beeing… players will get into the game and will eperiment with classes… they will mess up… they will find out that there’s no way to respec… and they will leave the game becayse the truth is this game PUNISH players for trying builds in game.

Grinding, Collections, Achievements:
I put them togheter because i really think they’re releated.

So in this game we need to grind for almost everything… and really it’s not a bad thing. It’s like going bak in the past, when i was a young kind getting into mmos for the first time and the nostalgia is great.

Problem is once again… the way grinding was implemented in this game is the worst i’ve ever seen in an mmo.

I’m not talking about drop rates and such… what i’m saying is that this game actually make it so that:

  • if you want something you need to grind -> to grind you need enemies to kill -> there are no enemies to kill.

There, good feature implemented so badly that it is game breaking.

Real grinding spots in the game are very few and they’re usually taken over by grinding parties. Most of the time it’ll be impossible to have more than a tot number of grinding parties at the same time so a lot of people are left with no spot to grind in.

If we talk about grinding in other areas well… the mob density and the respawn rate is so low that even a simple killing quest that asks to kill 10-20 enemies can take hourse depengin on how many other players are in the map… it really is not rare to walk around a seemingly totally empty map for a lot of time without even seeing a single enemy to kill.

This decisions forces a lot of people to compete over a very small amount of enemies thus encouraging kill steal.

That is the point: the game itself is designed in such a way as to encourage kill steal and anti-social behavior over coop and actually punish a very large part of the gamers that would like to use the main feature of the game: grinding.

Missions & Dungeons:
Having missions and dungeons in a game is an extremly good feature because it really gives more thing for people to do… once again tho the way these are implemented in ToS is one of the worst i’ve ever seen in an mmo… and i’m not talking about modern mmo… it’s the worst even compared to mmos i’ve seen and played 10 years ago.

It’s actually kind of clear that both dungeons and missions were designed with absolutly no tought into it… a map was built, enemies were planted in it, enemies were made overpowered, enemies were stripped of any form of item drop… a cube was given to the final boss to drop and that is it.

Not only this but… early dungeons give way too much experience… later dungeons give way too few experience…

If this wasn’t enough we can run them such a small amount of times… i mean… playing a full support class missions and dungeons, even if so badly designed, are really the only part of the game i find enjoyable to play because my character is actually usefull… expecially since it’s almost impossible to grind thanks to the mob density and respawn rate in the game… and i can’t run them more than a couple of times… so basically the game is telling me that i can have fun only about 2 hours each day and i have to feel disappointed all of the other ones… bad played.

Of course this also makes it possible for people to screw up other people as it’s happening right now! because some people will want the exp… others will want to rush to the boss for the cube… and if these people end up partying togheter well… wasted dungeon runs for 4/5 of the party!

Not to mention that it’s totally possible for idio*** to exploit this to pisso off everyone else by joining a party lying about a full run and then just rush.

So once again… good feature, very badly implemented into the game in such a way to actually punish players that enjoy playing dungeons etc.

I’d rather have free entries with with a lowered drop rate from the bosses than these limited entries as they are now because really, these entries are the only fun thing the game allow me to do when i log in.

Trade, Storage and Market:
Where to start? trade, storage, team storage and marketplace are basic features for any mmos… and i’ve neer seen a game designing them in such a bad way.

Everything is locked under a paywall… even if you pay you have a lot of restrictions… i really don’t want to go over this another time.

Oh well IMC said there’re changes on these subjects in the future about these so i hope for the best.

Other Stuff:
Skills not scaling thus making builds useless at high lvl… and i find out it’s a purposedly designed game mechanics…

And i can see why: plan your build for early levels and you’ll be forced to buy a skill reset potiont from the CS at higher lvl if you want to be useful! You really need to choose: be competitive at low lvls and useless at high lvls… be useless at low lvls but competitive at high lvls… or pay them, easy.

Way to talk about tricky and “slimy” selling methods…

Party gameplay that penalize friends…

There’s just too many to write them all

CONCLUSIONS:
I’m going to repeat myself one more time by saying that the problem with ToS is that they implemented all the right features into the game… but they did it in such a way that every single one of them feels like a punishment and not like an enjoyable feature.

If i play games… i play them because they are fun and keep me entertained… if i find out that a game, instead of beeing fun, is frustrating and every single aspect of it just get me nervous… i suppose there’s no point in going on playing.

And about spendind money on a game… the way i see it if a game is providing me fun then i will spend money on the game…that way i did for ESO, that way i did for The Secret World, that way i did for RO, that way i did other games.

But i feel like Tree of Savior is designed in such a way to mix the most aweful gameplay mechanics i’ve ever seen togheter with tricks trying to make me spend money not because i enjoy the game but because if i dont i’ll be stressed out and agry at the game… so no, thanks but no.

At first i was thinking of keep logging in at least for the missions… since it kind of was the only aspect about the game that i still liked… but after finding out the decision about not making skill scale, thus forcing me to spend money in the future for the reset, and some other stuff well… i’ve decided to give the game my final goodbye for sure and go back to more fun and healty games.

I’ll check from time to time if changes are made even tho i’m not really optimistic about the fact that changes will make things better because really… this game needs to change so many things to become fun in every aspect that they might as well re-design at leat half of it from scratch.

I did give ToS a positive review on steam… but i’ll saly be changing it to negative right away.

Now you can start insulting me in the comments, have fun ^^

56 Likes
Where did the goddess go...and the players... and why?
#2

I feel the same way. I still have hope that they will come around regarding the Trade&Market restrictions. It’s the backbone of every MMO.

5 Likes
#3

Well… i wish those were the only problems with the game. I’ve just done changing my initial positive review on steam into a negative one… got to admit i have been sad doing it but i really couldn’t help myself suggesting the game anymore since the more i played the more i found stuff that pissed me off badly in every single aspect of the game design… :confused:

1 Like
#4
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#5

It’s ok… it’s not for players to read, it’s for the staff to read anyway… players couldn’t care less about feedbacks most of the time if not to insult whoever wrote them :stuck_out_tongue:

3 Likes
#6

I agree in every single aspect. ToS has great features, but connects them in a very bad way. I hope this won’t be ignored @Staff_Julie @STAFF_Ethan

13 Likes
#7

I’m agree with you. I think about “good bye ToS” too.

1 Like
#8

It doesn’t work like that.
If your character is built logically, it will works at hlvl. Sure it may not be the ~BeSt BuIlD eVer~ but it will work, be enjoyable and be useful for your party.
Basically, each class advancement is a chance to fix your build. More ranks means more chances.

By the way, making skills scale would have the opposite effect. You would HAVE to reset in order to have an efficient build. Current system doesn’t force you to reset at all.

3 Likes
#9

I agree with you, there’s a lot of work to do with this game plus bad decissions. But, I think we have to be patient, make good suggestions, and see if IMC is taking care about our concerns. My advice: Take a break and come back later and keep an eye on the forums, I think you just need to stay away from ToS a little while :wink:

3 Likes
#10

@svalinn85

While I agree that a lot of things need to be changed.

This:
“oh… let me do a google research to see if i find an external website that will allow me to think my build beforehand”.

is exactly what every player SHOULD think when starting a game with insane amount of classes like ToS. Especially now, when not all classes are available, so they need to be extra careful.

Flexible choices are the best thing to go for right now.

Example of my builds that I made flexible enough so that they can’t be ■■■■■■ up by anything they add in the future

My current solo character

It’s a solo character focused on farming, with j. roger and double pay earn. Whatever they add in the future can only improve this build. Corsair is the only real dual wielding class that actually uses both weapons for attacking. If they add an additional dual wield class in the future, I will go for that, if NOT, then I’m going for any class that offers nice benefits and can work with anything.


(Subzero Shield is taken for testing purposes, will be changing to Ice Wall if Subzero doesn’t provide me with what I want later on)

My duo character, that I’ll be playing with a friend. Focused for the most part on crowd control and buffing, while being open to ANYTHING they add in the future (planning to take some strong offensive choices on ranks 8+). It’s CON heavy, because thaum can make up for lower INT quite well and my job as cryo for the most part is just to cc crap. Friend will be playing doppel with double pay earn and with my own XP gain skill, it’s an insane combo.

Now even though you can do what I’m doing and make flexible builds that are quite focused, rather than being all over the place. I want to say that I can understand why you don’t like all of this and being unable to change circles if you’ve made a mistake may seem like a huge problem, BUT…

As far as I’m concerned, ToS is a game where you should learn by screwing up. It’s a game that encourages alts, because there’s a team level that gives you account-wide benefits.

If anything, that’s what I think needs to be changed. +1% xp per team level is not a good enough incentive to play alts. There needs to be more benefits from team levels.

As for the dungeons and stuff, I agree completely. Major three disappointments for me:

  • Quest/Field bosses have no mechanics, every boss is boring for the most part. There are some exception, but it’s not enough to make up for the rest of it.

  • Dungeon bosses, while a bit better than quest/field bosses are still lacking in mechanics.

Example of a good and interesting boss fights in mmos

It’s an arpg, but I gotta mention Izaro boss fight from PoE ascendancy, with it’s different spawning mechanics that change each day to something else. There’s quite a few things that can happen, if you look through the whole video, you will see the different things spawning on the each phase, you fight Izaro three times through the labyrinth. If you don’t deal with spawning things in the first two phases, they will also show up ALL at once in the third and final phase, BUT also reward your if you allow them to stay for the final phase with more loot IF you manage to kill Izaro with all of that in the end.

Lord God DAMN Rhyolith from WoW

Awesome gimmicky boss fight from Cataclysm that I had ton of fun doing. Just watch the video, it’s enjoyable just watching it, you don’t even need to play it to see that it’s ton of fun and feels rewarding to down him just for the sake of downing him. Even more rewarding if you actually get an item, obviously :3

There’s a lot of other awesome boss fights from WoW and while I DON’T expect IMC to compete at this with Blizzard. AT LEAST they should attempt to make some more interesting boss fights in dungeons, than the usual tank and spank crap.

All I’m doing in dungeons right now in ToS is Taunt and hold C for guard and it worked for all of the bosses so far. It’s ridiculous.

  • Dungeon mobs. As you’ve said are also horrible. Just experience. They should have some small chance of dropping more uncommon crafting materials like maybe gold bars and stuff like that. Maybe have every dungeon have some sort of faction associated with it and then gain reputation for killing mobs and bosses in the dungeon with that faction and with enough reputation, be able to buy a cool item from the faction vendor (maybe with Talt, to make it have some other use, other than guilds). This would also make it so that people don’t feel like crap when they do their 3 daily dungeon runs of 1-hour long dungeons (at appropriate level) and get nothing. At least they made progress towards a faction and buying that one cool item with talt.

@Staff_Julie @STAFF_Ethan @GM_Francis @GM_Sebastian

Edit:
Yeah, I also think that spawn rates need to be brought back to icbt2 rates, that part was perfect back then, I have no idea why they changed it.

I also want to say while there are these problems, potential of ToS should be crystal clear to everyone, there’s no denying that and anyone who is quitting the game over anything now is either just not willing to believe in that potential alone OR is simply blind to it.

I think op is exaggerating a bit with his action, but I’m sure he’ll be back when …well, IF you polish and change things to bring out all of that potential of this game.

He has a bit of a casual side to him, but you shouldn’t try to cater to that, it ruins games. That’s something that casual players need to accept.

Meanwhile, I’ll just endure through the problems, because what the core of the game is offering is good enough for me to stick with it until better stuff comes along.

2 Likes
#11

I agree with everything

1 Like
#12

Eh, I did read all your posting and I say that you are complaining about things everyone else does, but in a big ass wall of text.

I want to remind you that the open beta started 2 weeks ago, and I’m going to assume that you know what the term BETA means.

Of course, it is your choice to leave, perhaps the game will meet your expectations when it gets older.

#13

CASUL

CASULCASULCASUL. But I do want to have a PK system and fight for good spots. Ever played L2? You don’t farm if you’re not red.

Stopped reading, realized you’re too casul. Go play Dark Souls.

#14

Read everything and i agree in most of the things. Although, i think the early access was also to see in what to improve (like the 1:1 trade).

As for the skills and classes…OH BOY where should i begin with

I still don’t get it… people say “Go do a research beforehand” but when i did a research on “What is a good wiz class” ALL post are “go W3>Ele3, all other are useless” whats the point of having “pyro, cryo, psycho, sorcerer, necro, chrono etcetc” if the only “good” is “w3>ele3” so i said “FU advisors” so i went “Wiz>Pyro>Psycho>Ele” atm, and atm i don’t see a moment where i should not use Element Bolt, i lay Fire Gorund in the floor with 3-4 mobs, leave 1 or the 2 FBalls use the Psychic pressure to “spread fb” and if everything gets on CD i spam Element Bolt. With this said, my play style is more variant and fun to me, I get to choose to not spam “the 50% cast spell > Elementalists Spell > wait for CD again while you use Auto Attacks”

(no, i’m not mad :P)

As for the spawn rate, i hope it gets better, or that “more mobs spawn if more people are on the map” or something like that.

Dungeons and Missions - Yep 2 times a day might not be the best, i read that in CBT was 5 after Lvl 90.

I enjoy the game and i think the game is “Fine” and that has the pontential to become “Great” if the right decisions are made by the Developer team, and specially if the community is patient and not “GG this game sucks” so easily.

2 Likes
#15

Im fine with the no reset policy. Ragnarok didnt have it early and it was fine. The important thing is to have a free reset when they implement a feature that will make old skill builds obsolete. I think this is only fair.

#16

Eh? Its not in Beta anymore. The game is at Early/Exclusive access now with f2p release in a few weeks. The game is released, If it was Beta there’s no sense purchasing things because it means they will be wiped

1 Like
#17

OPEN beta.

20charsyay

#18

you know :s there is no wipe in Open Beta in a lot of online games. The game is in an Open Beta state, the full Open Beta release is the one planned at the end of April.

We just get early access to the beta of the game.

#19

I agree with it as well, “Good features but badly implemented.”, they have a long way to polish the game like at least 2 years.

  1. Most white Items shouldn’t be drop in recipe, the grind pain is real even for whites. Some rare material really have to increase the drop chance due to low spawn rate or high players hunting.
  2. Dungeons normal monster should drop some items (at least silvers, I’m going poor by just doing dungeon only) or even need certain interactive with environment. It also need some surprise content like Goblin in Diablo 3.
  3. No Re-spec for wrong builds, I’m okay for this, the game is very forgiving except this one.

The only fun thing I found in this game is the excitement of teaming with different classes/builds, and using different strategy to finish the dungeon/mission, but they very dull though, it is very linear and lack of random surprising element like goblin/blue mobs or secret boss.

The rest of contents still far from polished.

#20

I agree. But i feel this game has a lot of potential. I will play and wait.
I have no interest in other game other than the successor of RO.
I will contribute and support till the developers piss me off. Still under control.

Anyway, late game content can be mediated with attributes for the lower classes.
This game is not that hard to play compared to GW2.

2 Likes