Tree of Savior Forum

My feels about TP compensation in an ugly comic

General Discussion
#81

it’s perfectly fair.

@pc911web this applies to you too…

the owners of tokens are losing value on tokens --they “overpaid” when compared to the new price, doesn’t matter if it was silver or TP, because an item which costs more/less TP would sell for more/less silver. there is a relationship between the two currencies, even if it is not an exact conversion rate.

…and so the owners of tokens are receiving compensation for the lost value. this happens to be in the form of TP, which is the only currency that IMC is able to determine any sort of “fair value” for the compensation.

tokens cost 198 TP. they are being reduced to 99 TP. the difference is… 99 TP. therefore this is a “fair” value for the compensation.
this is a simple and easy measurement, tokens have always been 198 TP before, and will always be 99 TP after.

==================================

but suppose you agree with some of the people who say that “people who bought tokens with silver shouldn’t get TP” ?
ok, that’s not actually unreasonable. however, those people are still losing value on the tokens they have paid for, and deserve some compensation for it as well. then, how do you determine what a “fair” silver rate of compensation would be?

well now it gets ugly and messy, and you need to start doing a whole lot of math.

==================================

in the Founders’ access period, tokens were sold at 500k for the first part.
then the price dropped to 350k. but some people sold them at higher prices.
and then f2p came around, and the founders’ packs were removed, and slowly the token supply dwindled, and slowly the prices started to creep up.

but exactly how many were sold at exactly what prices? at the very least, -hundreds- of them were originally listed on the marketplace, AND THAT’S ONLY ON ORSHA! IMC would need to go through every single token sale since launch to determine exact numbers for sales. IMC needs to determine, at the time of -each- of those hundreds of sales, what the exact average of token prices were, individually.

now we have the first 2 parts of the equation: the “baseline” price at time of sale, and from the -actual- sale price, we can calculate the difference from the baseline.

…

now we get to the somewhat more awkward bit.

now we need data from the next 2 months in the future AFTER the reduction to 99 TP cost.
why? well because we need to know what the ACTUAL change in silver value of the sales of tokens are.
why “2 months” ? because that’s how long tokens have been on the market -now- and we want a comparable version of changes that will happen -after- the price change. there will be a period of instability in the market, and we need to get past that to where tokens have a reasonably stable price value again.

if you’ve got a time machine we can do it right now… otherwise the people getting silver for compensation need to wait for 2 and a half months to actually get it. hey this is totally fair, they’re just f2p users, they don’t deserve the same priority as paying users, right?
oh, wait, no, you’ve already argued that they do… but too bad, they have to wait.

after you’ve collected your 2 months of data, you can compare it all… chop off any extreme outliers (prices that are -unusually- far above or below the typical price range. there are mathematical rules on how to do this, and it is done to keep a few “odd” prices from skewing the stats out of line.)
then take the average of those prices.

now we go back to the original pre-discount sales.

for each sale, which must be calculated individually for fairness…
calculate the price difference between the “baseline price” at time of sale, and the average future price of cheaper tokens.
calculate the price difference between the “baseline price” at time of sale, and the “actual price” the token was sold at.
…i’m going to refer to them as BP (baseline price at time of sale) … FP (average of future price) … and SP (actual sale price).

–if the token price went down, the owner is entitled to receive silver equal to the difference between BP, and FP, modified by the difference between BP and SP.
…
example… assume:
-tokens are worth 1million average (base price) at the time of this sale.
-this token was sold for 800k (sale price) … only 80% of the BP.
-tokens in the future are worth 500k (future price)… 50% of the BP.

and so… the owner of this token would be entitled to… 50% of 1 million (the difference between current price and future prices)… modified to 80% (the token was sold for 80% of the base price, so receives 80% of the compensation.)
a final total of about 400k.
…

now… we have to repeat this calculating for every single token that was ever sold before the price change was enacted… probably thousands of sales, maybe even 10’s of thousands.
which will take months to gather the data for the future prices.
then days to actually calculate all the math… or about the same amount of time to write and test a program to do it all.

ORRRRRRR

we could do it all at once, and just say “everyone gets 99 TP”, and just set the inventory scanner to browse the database and check each account and dump 99 TP into it for every token it finds.

minutes versus months.

… jfc, you people better start calling me “sensei” after this… teaching math class in this thread… english class in another…

1 Like
#82

and on top of alllllllll of that… you get your very own ban for buying silver illegally :smiley:
what a great bonus!!

see my “math lesson” post above this one.
600k isn’t the price for -all- tokens, so this wouldn’t be fair either.

#83

It’s basic supply and demand. The increase in price for the token now is mainly (if not the only reason) because of the compensation. The demand for tokens right now is high for obvious reasons. It will die down gradually once all of this is over.

All this reasoning, however, about the in-game market and economy and fairness and what not, does not address the concern that there is something odd about giving compensation to the token holders instead of the TP spender. As someone said in a previous post, “this is not a charity”. (Although this person still missed the point unfortunately) All the math presented, while very informative, does not remove the fact that someone bought TP and another person is getting the compensation for seemingly because “it’s easier”. This is a very weird decision. And while we can all exploit this loophole, we, as players who are investing our time and/or money in the game should be concerned. IMHO, this is not just weird, this is very noob-ish on a business standpoint. What is IMC thinking?

On a side note, F2P formats these days usually offer just cosmetic and boosting items. This one set a lot of restrictions that is unlocked with the token which I found rather archaic; but sure, this is a “retro themed” game after all. But I found it odd that they allowed the tokens to be tradable. It is a very generous feature, yes. But how will this look like in the business side of things? Will this assure the longevity of the game? Will this be worth my time? One can actually tell what a game will be like through its cash shop and its marketplace. ToS’s marketplace shows promise; it has features that I don’t see in many MMORPG’s. But IMC is giving me an impression that they are not handling the business side of this game properly. (setting aside the many other issues we are dealing with atm)

I am actually a free player. And will be getting a 99TP compensation since I own a token which I bought in the market. I found it odd that the price of the tokens rose despite the announcement that its TP cost is to be lowered. Only to find out why later on. I enjoyed playing the game because the adventure journal feeds the completionist in me and I am able to play through the game just fine. But c’mon guys, take a step back and see the bigger picture. This is not good for the game. It’s a very very weird decision the more I think about it. And sure, I can quit if I don’t like it, one may say. But I have an adventure journal to fill up hehe.

In the end, it doesn’t really matter to me what they do. (I mean, I get to buy another token, sure) I just want this game to last longer than it will likely do. This game will eventually just be another game we played til a new shiny one comes along; and I kind of don’t want it to be so.

And really, is this legal? I have a feeling that it’s not.

TL;DR : This is not about the marketplace or fairness. This is about who should get the compensation.

#84

Honestly dont’ know how people cannot comprehend simple math. Your token was sold for the price of a 198 TP token. said token is now worth half in value. Therefore those who bought the token with silver are getting compensated because their token is now worth half of what they paid for in silver.
If anything you should consider yourself lucky if you sold it early, if you’re planning to sell it at all.

Personally I wouldn’t sell a token for silver because i think real money and play time > silver but clearly you did because you sold it. Real money or not doesn’t change the fact that you sold the token for silver, and the token u sold aren’t worth as much anymore.

On the subject of token running out, if your token ran out before you could get the compensation, you’ve already reaped all the benefit of a token bought 30 days prior. Makes no sense that you should get compensated. That’s like founder people asking to get extra tokens because they used their token early. wtf?

Instead of calling the people who bought token from market greedy, how about you look yourself in the mirror? Maybe then you’ll realize you’re just as greedy as everyone else, since you sold your token for twice as much but still want more because 'you paid real money."

nty.

I found it odd that the price of the tokens rose despite the announcement that its TP cost is to be lowered.

That’s bull. The price of token only rose temporarily after the announcement due to some poorly educated people thinking the tokens are somehow worth more because you get 99 TP along with it. Now Token price are getting lower because players are realizing:

A. Token are cheap to buy. Just look at the price of the TP bundle.

B. No one is buying expensive tokens because they expect the price of token to drop.

C. Tp bundles are out, so those who wants tp will just buy TP instead.

On SEA- V the token are being sold in the last few hours for 1m, which is 500k than they were before. Once the price is actually lowered it’ll worth even less.

TL;DR: Whoever owns a token should get compensated. It’s clear, it’s fair, and it makes perfect sense.

#85

Bias comic is biased. Anyone can do it.

gg buddy.png2866×1028 104 KB

#86

Like I said, what one does to their tokens after buying it with TP is their business. It does not make sense that the person who bought a token with silver gets the compensation as he got his token through a fair trade already dictated by the current market. It’s not about asking for more because “you paid real money”, it’s about getting the money back from what you spent. (with real money)

And basic supply and demand: As the supply of tokens increased due to the high demand due to the compensation, the cost of tokens decreased slightly as many want to be competitive in pricing but still want to profit more.

The value of the tokens in silver changes because it is dictated by players and their needs for it through the in-game market. The value of TP equates to real money. If the person who bought a token wants compensation, he should demand it from the person who he bought it from. The TP compensation should go to the one who spent it.

#87

It does not make sense that the person who bought a token with silver gets the compensation as he got his token through a fair trade already dictated by the current market.

Except the silver he spent should’ve been less because the market price of token is dictated by their real life monetary cost, and their rarity. both of which will decrease.

And basic supply and demand: As the supply of tokens increased due to the high demand due to the compensation, the cost of tokens decreased slightly as many want to be competitive in pricing but still want to profit more.

Wrong on all front. Firstly, high demands means the price of token, no matter how competitive the market is, should only increase. The price of token shouldn’t be lower than what they were before, but they are, which means this whole “high demand thing” just isn’t true.

Simple answer: Players realized token are worth half in price, and 99 TP is dirt cheap, and decided to wait til token price reduction to see how much they’re actually worth. This leads to low demands, resulting the silver reduction for token.

" The value of the tokens in silver changes because it is dictated by players and their needs for it through the in-game market."

Regardless of what the market dictates, you sold your token for a price you deemed fair. No one is making you sell the tokens. I’ve had my token for weeks and i never felt the need to sell it. I bought it with TP.

The value of TP equates to real money.

The value of silver = time spent farming them + electricity bill = real money. Ignoring these factors are extremely biased against f2p players and greedy because you’re not value people’s effort into obtaining silver, and assume everyone got it from botting.

1 Like
#88

-Respect the people that pays for your bundles, there is and there will
always be a gap between the users who pay and the users who don’t, your
job is not make it too big to be called a p2w, or to small (like now) to
make users wonder what’s the point of buying your stuff. It’s not about
status, it’s the simple rule about effort = gain. So don’t make us feel
stupid and regret paying for this. Not a good marketing strategy.

I honestly don’t get why this guy thinks he’s superior and deserve compensation simply because he spend 40 dollars on a game, and the guys who invested many hours farming silver (likely even more hours than he spent getting those 40 dollars) delaying their gear progression for a premium membership are “getting freebies”.

Funny how i bought both bundles and a bunch of other tp sht and i haven’t an ounce of regret because all i see is a company that cares about, not just the paying players, but also the little guys who couldn’t afford to pay, and this company deserves my support.

Funny how you’re talking about effort when you’re essentially treating f2p players like they got their silvers from an npc for free.

We live in a funny world indeed.

#89

Players who bought Tokens and sold it on the market have the mindset that their 198tp Token they bought equates to the price they sell to the market. (Supply and Demand adds to this formula)

The player who bought it from the market knows that the value they purchase is 198tp.

Compensation for 99tp on tokens should be given to the player who bought the equivalent value of the token whether it is in the market or through dlc packs.

===================

Those who sold their tokens and asking for compensation, you already got it when you sold it on the market. You were happy that your 198tp Token was converted into 350,000 silver or whatever price you set.

#90

Still, I talk about supply and demand and the market because it seems to be so important to a lot of the people who find the compensation fair. But my point really revolve around the fact that these tokens are bought with TP and the compensation should go to the ones who spent it. (on the tokens specifically of course) And I presented those in the hopes of a comparison.

This is somewhat true. BUT, this is your choice, and actually your responsibility. IMC is here to provide a F2P game service, but it is not their responsibility who gets to play it and by how much. If it were, we’d be considered professionals. We can look at this the same as the issue we are discussing. For a person to sell his token which he bought for TP for silver is his choice. The price of that token will depend on the current market, and is something he can’t really complain about. This does not remove the fact though that it was his money that bought the TP that bought token. The TP compensation is rightfully his.

#91

And you have given up on that TP (real money) to be converted to Silvers.

It is like asking for compensation from Steam when they have a particular AAA game -75% discount after 3 months and I bought it full price during the release. It is not the best comparison but when you trade, you have to bear in mind that you are “satisfied” with it or else, you won’t sell it at all.

#92

Yeah GG boys token price on SEA V is now 500k even with the compensation, and they’re putting it on the market ,which means they’re realistically only selling it for 450k.

Wow I’m sure people are so glad they bought tokens at 1.5m each. I’m sure the compensation will cause token price to raise soon Roflmao. And I’m sure you who sold token at 1.5m deserve 99 TP more because that’s totally not greedy.

#93

This is somewhat true. BUT, this is your choice, and actually your responsibility.

Yeah and people who sold their token don’t have to take responsibility for their action. right make sense.

For a person to sell his token which he bought for TP for silver is his choice. The price of that token will depend on the current market, and is something he can’t really complain about.

And he will have no basis to complain because he pretty much sold it for twice the amount of silver. As of now the token on SEA - V is being sold at 1/3 the price before the announcement. If anything the people who bought tokens with TP made a killing.

This does not remove the fact though that it was his money that bought the TP that bought token.

And it does not remove the fact that it was the buyer who spent the time to farm enough silver to buy the token that justified the TP spent. The TP compensation is rightfully the buyers.

If you agree that time = money and electricity bill = money, whether or not you bough the token with real money or TP shouldn’t even be an issue because silver is essentially a legit currency you traded for.

So the arguement that “you spent real money on token therefore you deserve compensation even if you sold your token for silver” holds no water.

#94

Are you trying to prove my point even further?
I’m aware that a lot of people here seem to be inventing arguments out of thin air, but where do you get the idea I spend a lot of cash on this game?

500 usd?

I barely spend any money at all on this game. Hell I havent even played the game in a week, barely played it the two weeks before. Doesnt mean I should be an idiot and only defend my own personal gain, like you and others do.

When IMC makes a ridiculously stupid decision like this it affects everyone who’s looking for them to make solid decisions so they can have faith or hope in the game’s future again.
Regardless if the decisions affect them on a personal level, bad decisions like this don’t exactly inspire faith in a company.

But go ahead, use your one dimensional argumentation to show me just how true my point was…

But I’m not sure how you can call MY arguments one dimensional, when all I’ve done is point how BS your arguments are.

EXCEPT. There were minimum limits in place that prevented token prices from dropping much at all. EXCEPT supply far exceeded the demand sincec many already had TP/tokens from the early access.
EXCEPT the token price is not dictacted by the real life monetary cost, but purely the demand, and it’s supply.

This will be my last attempt at futility, to point out these very OBVIOUS points.

What are you, an economy mayor who has yet to land his first job? How an economic system works out in practice always supersedes how you expect it to work out in theory.
If you havent that lesson yet, good luck in your career.

Ofcourse they are. Because they receive compensation for something that didnt affect them to begin with.

That would be as if a car accident happend near me, while I was watching. And the insurance companies involved turned out to me, instead of the car owners. Hey it’s free money, that would make me happy.

Or it atleast it would be, if I was inconsiderate and selfish, and didnt realise (or care) that it also means those deserving of the compensation didnt get any because of it. Stupidity or selfishness, which one is it: you tell me.

Apparently you do feel this entitled, right now. After all, I barely spend money yet you go full retard mode on me, to defend your claim.

Erm, okay.

They sure did. Even someone with basic common sense would tell you, they dont actually compensate who they say they intend to compensate.

But hey enjoy your game that noone plays because the companies decisions are extremely questionable, even for those it doesnt involve.

#95

This is false. The buyer gets the token for the price dictated by the market.

Silver is legit in-game currency. TP is legit currency used for the cash shop where real money is involved. The value of silver changes because the market, supply, and demand changes through the players. The value of TP remains the same. In this case, IMC decides to lower the cost of an item in the cash shop. Who this affects more is the ones who use the cash shop. Therefore, the TP compensation is rightfully theirs.

1 Like
#96

This is false. The buyer gets the token for the price dictated by the market.

This isn’t false. Regardless of what the market price of the token is, they are still the one who farmed enough silver to purchase them, and the amount they spent justified the TP spent because the Token seller agreed to sell it at that price. No one is forcing you to put your token up for sell.

Again this is just you deliberately absolving TP buyers of all responsibility, blaming the “market” for TP buyer’s shortsightedness, who decided to sell their TP-bought token at a price that’s bound to fluctuate.

Silver is legit in-game currency. TP is legit currency used for the cash shop where real money is involved. The value of silver changes because the market, supply, and demand changes through the players. The value of
TP remains the same. In this case, IMC decides to lower the cost of an item in the cash shop. Who this affects more is the ones who use the cash shop. Therefore, the TP compensation is rightfully theirs.

Once again, you are splitting silver and TP into two separate things when you know people can buy TP items with silver.

If all TP items are untradable, if token cannot be sold, then it would make sense to compensate the TP owners. That’s not how TOS work. You can in fact buy cash shop items with silver. Atm its token. who knows what else you can buy in the future? And If the two currency is interchangable, and if an item in the cash shop is lowered, everyone playing the game is equally as affected.

Player who have TP will now have to pay more/less TP for an item, and f2p players will have to farm more/less silver to buy them from the market. Therefore the TP compensation rightfully belongs to whoever owns a token.

I’m sorry but the notion that “because you bought TP with real money therefore you win at life” logic doesn’t work and is terrible for a business that’s operating on a f2p system.

#97

I’ve already demolished this arguement in another thread but your “clear thinking mind” somehow isn’t capable of understanding the fact that " No one force you to sell your token."

If you think selling your tokens at 300k is a good idea because everyone else is selling at 400k even though you know there’s a possibility their price may raise in the future, when they are in demand, IMC compensating you for your stupidity wouldn’t make sense.

This point, is even more obvious than the dumb points you raised but somehow you don’t seem to get it. And you say you’re the clear minded one?

“token price is not dictacted by the real life monetary cost, but purely the demand, and it’s supply”

I’m sorry, but the lowered token price in game proved your wrong. The 1/3 market price in SEA-V for token proved your wrong. Real life monetary cost has a real influence on the goods sold in game. Cheaper things in real life = more people able to buy them = more supply in game.

Very basic logic that your “clear mind” missed completely. so i hope you won’t mind me taking the time to modify your sentence:

This will be my last attempt at futility, to “show how stupid and childish and illogical I am.”

FIFY

Ofcourse they are. Because they receive compensation for something that didnt affect them to begin with.That would be as if a car accident happend near me, while I was
watching. And the insurance companies involved turned out to me, instead of the car owners. Hey it’s free money, that would make me happy.Or it atleast it would be, if I was inconsiderate and selfish, and didnt realise (or care) that it also means those deserving of the compensation didnt get any because of it. Stupidity or selfishness,
which one is it: you tell me.

I say stupidity, because once again, This analogy is just as dumb as your “EU server getting compensated for SEA server crash” one. You and the car crash has no correlation to one another. You are not at all affected by the crash, whereas the people who paid for the tokens with silver took more time than they should have, farming those silver.

Instead of whatever the tokens are worth now, they paid double the amount (triple if you’re playing on SEA V) for the tokens. Their Time = money. Their electricity bill = money. But it somehow doesn’t affect them because your brain is incapable of understanding how time can be precious to some people, or that computer runs on electricity, and electricity cost money. Right. Time to move out of your parent’s house, bro.

They sure did. Even someone with basic common sense would tell you,
they dont actually compensate who they say they intend to compensate.
But hey enjoy your game that noone plays because the companies
decisions are extremely questionable, even for those it doesnt involve.

Questionable only to people who have the least amount of common sense and are incapable of understanding basic economy and logic, but hey, cool story bro. Already bought two packs. Intend to buy more in the future. Please quit honestly no one cares.

Hell I havent even played the game in a week, barely played it the two weeks before. Doesnt mean I should be an idiot blah blah

Sorry but you’re an idiot. if you’re not playing the game you literally have no business here on this forum beyond that you’re bored out of your mind and couldn’t find other things better to do. Sounds idiotic to me.

#98

They sure did. Even someone with basic common sense would tell you, they dont actually compensate who they say they intend to compensate.

They were very clear who they intend to compensate. EVERYONE who has active and inactive tokens. How stupid are you to not understand that?

Apparently you do feel this entitled, right now. After all, I barely spend money yet you go full retard mode on me, to defend your claim.

Do you even know what “entitled” means? If you’re not sure, please stop using it, you’re just making yourself look even dumber.

But hey enjoy your game that noone plays because the companies decisions are extremely questionable, even for those it doesnt involve.

Sooooo… the people currently playing and still selling their tokens (even after the announcement) are not players?

One last thing, you stand on the side where you still want to get compensated even after you sold your token for what you deemed was 198TP worth of silver. You were stupid enough to sell an item worth real money for some silver so you can buy something else. Reimburse half of your token buyer’s money and return a portion of the item you bought with the token sale silver. If you can do that, then you deserve your bonus 99TP. I don’t expect you to get the logic behind this, so go ahead and reply to show how ignorant you are.

#99

This is good. Somebody almost gets it.

This is exactly what my argument is: The market and the cash shop are different. The value of silver changes because of the market. Whatever the reason for the pricing of tokens or for whatever other item, it is but subjective to the collective agreement of the players through the marketplace. Making the cash items tradable is always a slippery slope for any F2P MMORPG as in many cases, it ruins the marketplace. Still, selling tokens is just the same as selling a clean Arde Dagger for 500K; it is the player’s choice to do so. It is a free market. BUT this still does not take away the fact that the TP spent to buy the token is of that player; who ultimately should be rightfully compensated. We do not blame the players here, we blame the system.

1 Like
#100

And we’re back to square 1. Ultimately you just think if you spent money on TP you’re the king. You can be as shortsighted as you want, sell your costumes and tokens for however much silver you want and get compensated when their price are modified.

Yeah no, this does not make any sense.

Just because you spent money it doesn’t give you any privilege over other players. You may get some added benefit, bonus exp, less market tax…etc ultimately you’re a player like everyone else. You still have to play the market and take risk like everyone else. It’s not a get out of jail free card.

And let’s not even get started on the token fiasco. The moment you bought TP you’ve already transformed ur money into TP. Essentially you agreed that TP is now the currency you use, and then you buy a token using this currency. And when you decide to sell your token for silver, your desired currency changes again.

You’re not after premium playtime now. You’re after silver, and not a token anymore. (Unless you have active token, in which case you’re still short a token.) You may have bought it with TP, but you also sold it for silver. It makes no sense to compensate you in TP when the currency you traded for is silver, and neither should you be compensated in silver because you pretty much sold it for more silver than you deserved, or you sold too early and only have yourself to blame.

We do not blame the players here, we blame the system.

Whether the system is good for the game or not that’s another topic of debate, but it has little relevance to the topic at hand.