Tree of Savior Forum

My feedback on linear progression and other stuff

Gameplay Feedback Quest/MIssion
#103

You know, you have comprehension issues. Open world games such as Everquest and Final Fantasy 11 have many areas with weak and strong enemies within the same areas for leveling, which promotes higher level characters to go back and visit those said areas.

Those games are excellent examples of open world MMOs that reward exploration and do not railroad you onto a single path THAT TREE OF SAVIOR CLEARLY DOES.

Are you going to tell me there is purpose to exploring higher level zones at a low level in Tree of Savior? Because I’m going to tell you there is not.

#104

Even Guild Wars 2 has a wide variety of leveling areas right from lv 1 and a world where you aren’t railroaded, and that’s a modern MMO that tries to cater to the casual market.

Again, good gaming principles transced time. what was a good game in 2000 is still a good game today. That’s why many people consider the 90s to be the best era of gaming, and why many people agree that the integrity of game design is going down the toilet in recent times.

Do not be complacent to such issues. Do not support bad development habits and do not be satisfied with ‘just good enough’. Game design should be evolving, not receding.

#105

Look gaming was good in the 90’s as it was new and have new ideas.nobthing you do today will be so new.games now days making much more mony so take it any way you want.
The way maps are connected in this game is not normal.you can go from lvl 60 to lvl 160 map tp lvl 64 map.
In gw2 you explore 2 get exp and a reword.your lvl in gw2 is poinles as its the map lvls.
FF 11 have mixed lvl minster so you get killed way more there when exploring.
Here (and not onlly) you can make a party of 5 peole of lvl 80-90 and go farm on lvl 100-110 monsters no problem as long you have goid dps and a healer.lots of people here find lvling hard as they ■■■■■■ up in the build some where.in this game you can do lots of build but not all work as good.then there people soloing as healers/tanks and dont understand why they do low dps.
Its beta 2 exp in released game will not be the same.

#106

I hope you guys understand that this is a beta test, and probably the exp rates, and exp from quest rewards will probably scale down, they are GIVING us means to go as fast as we can to TEST the stuff. They gave us 30 days to make experiments, and that is what this is about.
All of you saying "RO this, RO that, srsly, why aren’t you playing RO then if its so marvelous? This game uses the same CONCEPT ART as RO, and thats as far as it goes. It brings an interesting proposal to the broken world of MMORPG(and if you don’t see it your addiction is in a serious state) this game goes all the way back to 90’s titles and bring it with a whole new proposal, tending to adapt to nowadays crybabies(i’m looking at all the “sandbox” lovers in here) if you don’t know, i suggest you go search about Seiken Densetsu III, or simply Secret of Mana, and its fine if you don’t like it, but ToS as it is, is trying to bring that style into an MMO, and IMC is making a pretty damn good job so far


Yeah the quests are linear, it doesn’t mean you can’t grind for an item or silver to buy/upgrade your gear, no one is stopping you from that, all they are doing is presenting you with a nice story to go, and you don’t need to do all the sidequests they are presenting at you aswell, it takes 5~15 minutes to get done with a map main story quest, after that you’re free to go back to your mindless grind that you all love so much, and hate when someone tries to change it


ffs


2 Likes
#107

No, it has nothing to do with gaming being ‘new’ in the 90s. Overall, design principles were better in the 90s. developers were not nearly as constrained by budget and producers forcing them to dumb down their games in order to try to push out more $$$. The rising cost of game development is what’s causing the current issues with gaming. Developers are putting all of their costs towards production values while being forced instead to dumb down their games. If the game doesn’t reach a production value barrier, it doesn’t sell. That’s why there were so many masterpieces of the era. Games weren’t rushed, they didn’t cost an arm and a leg to make, and developers could afford to try to make the best game possible and take their time really fleshing out the designs, because it wasn’t the end of the world if the product failed.

Compared to today, where we have disasters like Konami’s current situation happening


And why would I choose to farm with a party in an optimal area when I could just do 3 easy quests and get just as much exp in half the time? Grinding is completely overshadowed by questing to a disgusting degree. I TRIED to prioritise grinding, and found that it simply did not do an adequate job. There was a point around the lv 125 range where I ran out of quests due to bugged quest lines and had to grind out two whole levels. It took nearly a whole day as opposed to doing a bunch of quests that could have taken two hours.

Yes, it’s a beta, and that’s precisely why we’re giving our feedback. There’s still time for IMC to change their direction, or make plans to change it in the future as the game evolves and becomes bigger.

#108

Many people want down or remove the quest And many people want more more quest ?

Me i want more quest and more exp by quest .

People don’t want quest only grind, but don t want botter or auto afk attack ? Every grinding game that who make thousand botter. Atm we close 2016 with many new, i don’t will stay of a pure grinding game with thousend botter.

Why people botter or afk auto attack ? because in 90% of the time they play another game and afk in that game because most the time people are now boring grinding like a robot.

Wow have thousend quest that make people fear ? but i can tell us many name game based on grinding and all shut down.

Who enjoy stay 4h in a area for get 1 lvl and kill same and same mobs ower ower ower ? when you on in the game, no time for speaking with your friends you go direct grinding “today i want kill 2000 mobs” “next days 3000 mobs” that is fun ?

In every game i see many people omg the game too easy, i like grinding, i m hardcore hehe, but every new game is same noob who tell that and they are first who leave the game because they got boring grinding or because the game is too hardcore for him wtf ?

Or the first who tell omg make that game grinding is the first who will use bot the most the time, exemple in that forum second days close beta many tell omg archer need more dmg on auto attack, 4 more days 90% of the botter is archer.

And most the time, the dev listen that who cry make the game more hard, but that who leave first and tell on another game forum the dev make bad update that failled a good game, like RO O_o ?

Haha listen don’t make same error, do you don’t kown it have hide gm of another game who can make troll feeback for kill your game ? like omg the game too easy, don’t listen casu player etc, or kown mage is populate in occident but atm is weak, and cry every poste your are a idiot mage good no need change you don’t kown play it, are you have a mage ? listen to play.

That is exemple.

2 Likes
#109

The reason we don’t play the old games anymore is because they were changed to fit the new age mmos(post-WoW) and as a result have lost their appeal. With the grinding/quest dilemma, for many years the focus has shifted to quest hubs and with that you don’t get to level where you want to. It’s all about giving the players choice instead of choosing for them. Tree of Savior has just about everything on my personal checklist for being a great mmo, the only thing missing is an open world.

I don’t want another WoW-esque linear hub quest game that fails within two months. I want a game that will survive because it has the right elements for a community to thrive in. Tree of Savior already has class interdependence seen primarily in older MMOs, it is missing the open world feel and desperately needs the variety for replayability and the longevity to the games lifespan.

#110

Botters are only a problem when the barriers for entry are low, game masters fail to do their jobs or there are not enough game masters to take care of them (GMs have lives too!)

I can’t really make out the rest of what you’re saying
 sorry.

#111

Im one of the players who was hyped by the game as it was advertised to be the true RO 2 somehow. Being so, I agree with the TS about its linearity, like almost all the games I have played after RO. As what is known, quests designed as such compels people to do all of it to reach maximum efficiency in terms of levelling and reach an end-game of sort. Yes grind is viable, but why will I grind when it is so much faster when questing.

I understand that this is CBT and exp rates are higher, and grinding will be more of an option once OBT starts but the problem is we will still be compelled to do those quests. Doing it once (first character) may be fine for the player to know the story the game has to offer but what will happen is that people WILL make new characters, in result doing those quests over again which may sound pretty annoying for me.

The game looks promising, only drawback, currently for me, is its linearity like a story single player game. Go to this map, do X number of quests, proceed to the next map and do X number of quests again. Part of me is somehow used to it since recent "MMO"RPGs were designed like such. And these RPGs go downhill, worse close servers, fast. I can’t comment entirely on the market setup as it is still too early and the economy is not yet completely established.

So yeah, bottomline is, I love the game and I hope IMC will make a move to offer a more open world game. What are feedbacks for :wink:

1 Like
#112

“It’s 2015” is a perfectly valid reason for why you don’t make a game where you plop people in the middle of nowhere and expect them to just go and grind porings for 8 hours. What I’m saying is that RO had a shallow game design concept with no other sandbox features to support its quasi-sandbox structure. I sincerely doubt it would fly today were it introduced again in a similar iteration to what the ro vets are pining over.

I’m sure IMC has done their homework with regard to focus groups and marketing. Yes, you need a guided tour, because it facilitates a familiar feeling for people who might be used to traditional themepark mmorpg’s. That’s not to say that the whole game IS a guided tour, I’m on board with that idea. There need to be more options. As you get higher level, you have maybe one or two maps to go to, they both have 2 channels, they’re both packed with players, and you’re lucky to see 5-8 mobs per “node” on the map.

TLDR, don’t take the quests out, but make grinding equally attractive. Don’t try to turn this into another Ragnarok, make it a Ragnarok+

1 Like
#113

The problem with ToS isn’t really about too much quest though. It’s about how the quest is designed.

I know many people would hate it if I bring out Maple Story, but that game has plenty of linear quests itself, and still maintained a open world feels.

ToS just felt, linear. Nothing more.

#114

while i understand that it’s boring to do the same stuff over and over again if you want to build more characters, i think there is a need for ‘guided tours’, especially for new players.
i’m sure that for the people in this cbt this is not their first mmorpg. most of them are ‘veteran players’ so they want to discover, grind or whatever each one wants.
but for a new player having a linear evolution to learn and get used to the game might be the best thing.
ro was my frist mmorpg and i quit it in a few months because i had no idea what i was suppose to do. everyone was telling me to grind all the time or to get items that never dropped or to look for bosses that spawn in random locations. that may be ok for more experienced players, but for me as a new player this was not interesting at all. sure, it was nice i met some ppl, the graphics were nice, the classes but in the end it was not enough to keep me interested because i felt like the game is too complicated for new players (especially new to these type of games)
what actually got me hooked on mmorpgs was a linear quest game, because i could get that ‘guided tour’ and figure things out on my own, while later on joining a guild, making friends, learning new things.
so maybe imc can find a way to make a tos a new player friendly game, but interesting for veterans as well.
about the socializing part, indeed the game feels a little less social for me, but i think that’s mostly cause party chat is bugged, friend req are bugged, whispers are bugged, guild are not yet implemented.
my personal favorite part of a mmorpg is doing raids, so maybe dungeon related quests would be a nice addition, because that requires collaboration between players.

#115

C’mon, this quest system is quite bad (to be euphemistic). This quest system is the one that every generic MMORPG tried to copy from WoW and failed. It is the reason for both Ragnarök Online II projects have gone down, because it was WoW in RO theme, nothing new or interesting.

#116

Dont like it dont play it really.you csn go grinding.
To all the people crying that grind is not as fun here.how longvit was in ro to grind?5 times longer or so.so what you want is ro but faster exp .go play a private server.

This is not RO🙅

1 Like
#117

Last thing I want is fast xp :laughing:
I don’t think it should be related to RO at all, just don’t make the same mistakes as other companies. RO 2 was only an example. D&D Online, LOTRO can be also examples. Also WoW, for the amount of people that are leaving the game. The graphic in WoW is still awesome, but the quest, leveling and combat systems sucks.

#118

I love this thread and the fact that it seems like people (and IMC) are finally paying attention to the core failings of the game. However, please understand that even if they didn’t guide you around on a quest path, you CAN NOT LEVEL IN ZONES ABOVE YOUR LEVEL. You may be able to eventually kill a high level monster while using all your cooldowns twice and expending all of your SP (and this is due to damage scaling based on LEVEL, NOT solid core mechanics. Try to attack a monster 20 levels above you then go back with the same stats and gear, you WILL do more damage to it and it will do less to you.) but you will not be rewarded with fair EXP. You will get a few POINTS more than killing a monster your own level, while spending 10 or 20x longer killing it. As in 50 EXP compared to 60 EXP. Also I believe you get slightly less EXP from killing monsters below your level, also. That is actually the only indication IMC gave of any sort of level-based EXP scaling pre-CBT.

This means that at it’s very core, the game is linear. And it isn’t just because of quests. THAT IS A HUGE FAILING. One I hope will be fixed before release because they are just using this lazy system to test the game without putting the time or effort into correct balancing?

And since this thread is great I’m going to ONCE AGAIN talk about the Potential loss on trading items. There is NO REASON to punish people for wanting to interact in ways outside of party-killing monsters. Upgrading and socketing items is VERY expensive. You should be able to then take your ‘perfect’ item, that probably took a lot of time and money to achieve, and reuse it on other characters or sell it for a nice profit. I’ll be honest I don’t actually know how hard it is to +10 something, as I haven’t been able to make that much money in-game to attempt it due to the market being down 9/10ths of the time. However, I assume in the process you’re going to be losing Potential and money to get it there. And you’re going to want to slot it. So in the end you may be left with 1 Potential or none
so
then
why would anyone spend the effort and money doing that? To the replace the item at the next gear tier? So silly.

But anyway. I definitely agree completely and I DO feel lied to by this company. Even if we ignore any misconstrued info about it being the next RO, we WERE promised a ‘return to basics’, ‘not quest-driven’, ‘open world/exploration’ mmo. And instead we have
this
WoW clone in RO clothing.

If they put the time into correcting the level scaling (PVP is not segregated by level BTW, so have fun doing no damage just because you’re lower level. Even if you invest in good gear.), lowered quest EXP (EXP cards are absolutely ridiculous. There’s no way anyone would choose to grind over getting those cards.), and changed the gear system AND lowered drop rates on gear (since you wouldn’t have to hunt your own gear to make it perfect.) then I – and a BUNCH of my friends who dropped the game after 2-3 days – would consider investing time and some money into it. But right now, the game punishes you for doing anything except what they WANT you to do. Follow the quest line like good little sheep.

7 Likes
#119

Those were the days where if you could just do an ample damage to a high level mob and it was killed by another, the exp was so satisfying.

#120

Out of all your argument, this is your end mark; that was your conclusion? If we dont like it, then stop playing?
It’s the same as before, you marked, “IF WE DONT LIKE IT, UNINSTALL THE GAME”.
Your method just mark your good self as a Troll/Flame instead of a person defending something.

You are literally making yourself looking like someone who’s pitiful enough to die that hard for a game that is that bad, or boring.

People flock over the server when it was opened during the 1st day of the 2nd CBT. Assuming so, including me, because we were expecting something new, something fun, but what we get is, Linear, boring, repetitive game play.
And as if u mentioned before, if level 85 is considered LOW, give the time and effort given to get to that level, how long would one have to spent or die for in order to be at the highest?

Look at the population now.

In the old days, MMORPG was a lot more fun, more in-depth story-line, more in-depth game play, more in-depth core game mechanics.

Frankly speaking, I’ve already uninstalled the game, not because it’s buggy or have so many errors. But it was so god damn boring. And yes, I’ve been enjoying myself playing a private RO server instead. More adventures there compared to ToS.

As I’ve said many times before, there are A LOT of room for ToS to improve from the linear game play. Either the dev wants to implemented it, or not. Thats the case.

1 Like
#121

Weren’t they though? I really don’t think it would be game-breaking to give each monster a set amount of EXP. Especially if they’re deadset on keeping the damage scaling. The difficulty in killing harder monsters should be rewarded.

#122

Can you please post the map of RO when it was in CBT? Pretty sure it onlny had 3 cities(either geffen,prontera and morroc or morroc,prontera and payon) and around
 10-20 maps?. This game is way more developed/offers more freedom/places to go than RO cbt ever did ^^. I love how people compare a game that had 12(or 13) episode updates within 10-12 years to a beta.

Lots of ways they could actually update the game after release to reduce linearity: Build different main quest paths with newer maps, allow the player to choose if he wants to be a revelator or an explorer(gets every map opened, doesnt need to do quest. Cant access main quests, only side quests. Would need to balance story bosses drops),obviously done after improving the exp of mobs by a bit(so grinding is on par/a little bit worse/better than questing).

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