My feedback on linear progression and other stuff

[rafael_clp]

Alright, so I see there are tons of threads like this already, and that’s why I couldn’t select ONE to publish my feedback. Sorry =/. This is just my opinion, based on my feelings when playing this game and other mmorpgs. You may feel and/or think differently, so feel free to say I’m wrong and explain why. But please don’t expect me to always agree.

First, I must say I feel cheated by ToS and by everyone talking about it. People were announcing this as a successor to RO1, as “the game RO2 should have been”, and this is the only reason I wanted to play this game so much. So please, don’t feel mad on me for trying so hard to compare this to RO1, instead of considering this a completely separate game (that I see now it unfortunately is, but that’s not what I expected). And no, I didn’t expect this to have porings, or follow the same story… just the same (but improved) mechanics and style, or whatever I should call it.

I tried many other MMORPGs after (and along with) RO1, but not even a single one kept my attention for over 2 weeks. In my opinion, there are a few thing that make RO1 special (to me, at least):

1. Its open world. I don’t need to follow a single story line to reach the end of the game. There are many cities I can start from, and there are many places I can choose to go from there. Actually, what “end of the game”? I never felt like there was an end in RO1, while in ToS the game is all about getting to the end of it, to the very last [main] quest. In RO1, I can’t just follow a sequence of quests that will give me all I need to complete the game: all the equipments, all the money, and all the exp. I usually needed to go separate routes to get the equipments I wanted, in VERY different maps. Sometimes, the best gear was dropped by the weakest of the monsters; other times, by the strongest MVPs. In ToS, I just kill the monsters the quests ask me to, and that’s enough to get the equipments for my level. Plus all the silver I need, all the gems, and so on. I don’t need to move to a completely different area to find what I need. It’s all so linear… and there’s absolutely no happiness in finding that nice piece of equipment, as you are EXPECTED to find it in your journey (or at least I guess so, since I’ve been finding everything I need until now)…
2. In RO1, each city seems to have a “personality”. They are all so different from each other… Prontera, Payon, Morroc, Geffen, …, all memorable. And each new episode would release one or more new unique cities with new dungeons and fields, new monsters I would care enough to memorize their names; places I was always actually interested in getting to know better, because the feeling was different from the previous places. Klaipeda just feels like a place I go to get my equipments repaired and to sell my stuff. Other than that, it’s a city full of NPCs I use to advance ranks. Well, it doesn’t even feel good to have to step back into that city, I just do that because I need to.
3. I left this to the end, because I think it’s the most important: RO1 makes you feel relevant to its story. Remember these episodes and events when they used to call all players in Rune-Midgard to help save the city or whatever? Every single character was in the same moment in time. It doesn’t matter if you are lv1 or lv99. You are important, you make part of the story. The players build it together. In ToS, everyone follows the same story, but everyone is in a different time in it. The world must be saved thousands of times by thousands of characters. They all finish it, but none of them actually saves the world. It is the same world before and after they save it. Story-based, there is no relevance to what the players do. And if you start a new character, go follow the exact same steps to save the world again! How motivating… So, I know in RO1 the story also wasn’t affected by the players’ actions, but yet it felt like you were part of the exact same story as all other players, not a completely separate one (separated by time).

So, I don’t feel like ToS is an MMORPG, because of this quest system. I know it is, but I don’t feel like it. It’s about feelings, not reasoning, so don’t try to convince me. It just feels like a (single player) RPG, or at the very most, a co-op RPG, if you join a party with friends to complete it. The only thing that makes it MMO is the fact it’s an MMO =P. I mean, definitions. Nothing else.

This is the kind of mmorpg I can’t enjoy. It’s the mmorpg that sitting in a city chatting with other players seems like a waste of time. I should just move to the next quest and try to complete the game ASAP. I wasn’t expecting a new Diablo, I was expecting a new RO, so I was very disappointed.

[STAFF_J]

Thank you for the valued suggestions on Liner Progression and other stuff.
As you know, this is just CBT stage. We’re try our best effort to improve TOS with our passionate Fans.

Thanks.

[_DrRM_]

Massive
Multiplayer
Online
Role Playing
Game

yup, ToS is an MMORPG

[rafael_clp]

“I mean, definitions. Nothing else.”. Yeap, I had figured that out by myself, but thanks captain.

[lans1234567890]

Games like ro cant work any more.you can go and play ro its there.now never go in 2 a game and think it will be like any ather game.its not work like this.even games like witcher 2 and 3 are not the same.so i hope you can fined this game fun after playing more.but if not i hope you will fined your gsme one day.

[Mirarara]

Tbh, I felt like RO can be my virtual life. But I couldn’t in this game.

Even Maplestory feels more like another life to me.

[rafael_clp]

If this game was completely innovative that would be true. Aside from the classes by rank (which is amazing, I must admit, but isn’t enough to support the game), I don’t see anything new here =/. The last mmorpg I played before this one was Aura Kingdom. It has the exact same quest system. You follow the main quest to the end and level up pretty fast (+ you have that same “return” button to go back to the NPC after you collect everything for the quest), or you try to actually build a party (or go solo) and kill monsters and spend hours for each level. I mean, if there is an option to level up fast, why would I go slow? That’s how I see most mmorpgs being built nowadays. Lots of different monsters that are completely useless because you will just receive all your exp from the NPCs anyway. ToS seems like a mix of many mmorpgs (including RO for obvious reasons, Diablo for gameplay and linear progression, Aura Kingdom for quest system, FFXIV for the controller system, and many others), but only a few innovative things.

The way I see ToS, people will finish the game in just a few weeks after the release. Maybe two or three months, depending on the max level. But the main question to ask for in any game is: are the players feeling fun? Or are they just desperately trying to finish the game? Because that’s how I feel when I play ToS. Obviously not all players will feel the same, but how many feel the same way I do?

[rafael_clp]

To be sincere, I don’t expect IMC to change this quest design at this point, so my feedback isn’t really thinking of ToS, but possible future mmorpgs released by IMC. Just hoping someday they will actually release the next RO with all its flaws fixed. Would be amazing to me and to most RO fans. ToS is a solid mmorpg as it is, just isn’t anything like RO, hence my disappointment. In my opinion, RO was the only mmorpg with a real “immersion” feeling I’ve ever played (or, as @Mirarara said, a sense of a “virtual life”). All the rest were just MMORPGs (with the MMO part being irrelevant) I could just complete and move on to another game.

[ryula2]

I agree with your feelings on the linear system. And like you, i don’t think IMC would change it.

I mean, the game is great, but it uses the same system every MMORPG has been using for the last 10 years or so. Since the progression by quests became popular, the essence of MMORPGs vanished. Now it’s just a race to the endgame, and later, a constant repetition of dungeons.
I’ve seen it way too many times, but yet i still go around trying every new MMORPG that comes out, dreaming that some company would care about innovating the progression system.

I would love if quests were rare things, the amount of time dedicated into doing the storyline of every “rushed” quest could be used into making a more interesting combat system, adding enough challenge to make people forget the “grind” and instead worring more about not dying.
Also, if there were few important quests (i don’t mean a lot of common quests and a few important ones, just ERASE all quests and keep the good ones), the story and the progression of them could be more epic and touching.

I expected the handholding themepark to end by level 40 or so, but it just keeps going, i can’t wait to finish all the quests in order to do random stuff, but by then i guess that the quests would of take me all around the world, without anything new to explore and do, other than the typical endgame dungeons which i’m so sick of already.

Someday a MMO company will innovate, but until then, i’ll just keep playing for the music and gameplay (btw, please! Make it more challenging! Can’t you see all those glass cannons builds everyone has? None of them are being one-shotted by the slow pattern attacks of the enemies)

[TeamBiscuit]

this topic is extremely well articulated and from what I’ve seen around reflects how most people are feeling: disappointed.

And as a RO player, I wasn’t expecting a RO clone, but a game of the same weight and quality that would make me enjoy being online, make me want to be online even just to meet my friends and goof about; make me enjoy exploring the world and finding all the secret places on my own.

Now everything I do feels so disconnected and pointless. as it is right now I don’t think I will play this game once released, I’m sorry. It looks like it has so much potential tho, and that’s why it’s disappointing.

[roncesvaux6]

I wonder if they can fix this linear system… i dont mind waiting for another year if they could remove it… most of the players are disappointed with it the hyped went down big time…

[lans1234567890]

So people on this forum dont likecthe game.so dont play it.go snd play ro its what you all looking for.its there.or the real grind there stoping you?
Why people want a mmorpg that have no quests?
You want 100% grind?but you can do this.now this a game where you can build more that 100 builds and there will be even more.there will be 7 class and hidden classes.so how you have nothing 2 do in the game.or may be you just play a class/build that is not fun for you.
And lastly bfor people saying they feel a need 2 rush 2 end game.why?there is no end game there.may be later or may be not.
So have fun or if you just cant from the disappointment that a game in 2015 is not like in 1990-2003 then look for one that is and have fun there.there is a reason mmorpgs doing it this way.

[TeamBiscuit]

it’s not so much that we don’t like the game, I think most of us love this concept and some of the mechanics are just brilliant. the rank system is so compelling and personally I couldn’t wait more just to test all sorts of builds.

But if the price for that is having a quest line shoved into your face, then i’m not up for that. I think most of us is not disapponted by the presence of quests itself, rather by the way they are presented. It’s as if the game doesn’t trust us with the freedom to do whatever we want.

[gustavo_e91]

Man, you said everything that everybody want to say

freedom, search the best itens and unnusual places, make money in map x, make exp in map y, make good itens in map w

this game is more like a big adventure and not a true mmo

like the guy said, I cant think on TOS as my second life

[sebestiankuma]

The problem here is that there’s so many classes, but if you want to try a new one, you have to replay the same map and quest over and over again. Why would I want to try out all the different(and cool) looking classes when I have to repeat the same boring quest? what made RO so great with trying new classes is that there were so many different areas that were suited for leveling them. The linearity in TOS really kills that.

[ryula2]

If they want to keep improving and rewarding the “exploration”, they should have open barriers at some point.
You know, making something like creating big gaps of levels between each main quest (and telling you on which town you should continue it).

Did any of you try Dragon’s Dogma Online? There, the main quests are difficult ones, and there are a few levels in between, so you had to do other stuff until you reached from level 27 'till 30 or so. On that time, you were free to do what you wanted; search for equipment, make money, explore new places, group up to do difficult repeteable quests or help someone else with their main quest. (those are hard because you pretty much need at least another player in order to keep the aggro and the other doing the damage. Yet, you could do it alone, with enough patience)

If you don’t have a break between the quests, people like me won’t stop doing them in a rush (and i know i’m not the only one, when quests become repetitive, you just skip the content and do the stuff, specially if you already did that same quest before with another character).
Maybe there should be some extra maps without any quest being involved, which could lead to hidden content (not really hidden, but actually not thrown into your face like if you couldn’t find it otherwise) like towns, hunting spots, with area bosses and such, and there should be TONS of them, that’s when people stay away from the quests and start walking around.

Well, i don’t know, the whole exploration thing right now is just doing a quick run around the map before getting to the next one.
The quests make it quite easy for everything, it gives you money, the armor you need, good weapons that are only slightly worse than the best drops, gems, cards, whatever you can think of.

Come on, most of us are veterans, i didn’t really play RO before, but i’ve been playing MMORPGs for the last 12 years, we can take the little extra difficulty of not having the best equipment for our levels at any time.
But well, I guess that this is still the way MMORPGs are doing nowadays. I wouldn’t be “complaining” (suggesting, helping, giving internal thoughts, etc) if it wasn’t for the fact that they are having a big brand on their backs, and one of the most popular ones of the old days, RO.
The days on which quests didn’t give everyone what they needed right away.

However, not saying that ToS is bad as it is, just that it does not go by the old days, and the freedom/exploration isn’t much more than looking around while you go straight forward.
The gameplay is alright and the soundtrack is outstranding, which is enough for me to play around for a while, but not enough for me to take it as a MMORPG.

This is a CBT, they’ll keep improving depending on how they want the game to be, nobody knows how is the released game IMC has in mind, but if they ever want to go with the same quality as the old days of RO, it will need much more freedom. Releasing the handheld and stopping the themepark at some point.

(Note: I did not play RO much more than a week or so, but i know enough from that, and my friends stories, on the meanwhile i was playing others MMORPG, so i still have an idea of what i’m talking about.)

[erwin_gustavo]

Honestly, I can’t say I didn’t miss a certain degree of freedom so far in the game. I remember that most of the fun I had in RO was simply running around, looking for new enemies, testing my strenght against creatures I had no idea if I could kill in places I was pretty sure I shouldn’t be. And actually finding thing I could kill, and learning thing little by little.

But I also cannot agree when you say most quests should be removed. I believe a fair amount of them are actually interesting, especially the story. Even though a bit clichéd, the storyline has so far been able to capture my attention.

I must admit I haven’t played as much yet, and I can foresee the problem mentioned of having to redo these same quests in the same places for each and every character, especially since I plan on having a lot of them (So many classes and builds to test, right?).

Thus I am forced to agree with what Ryula here said about this system on Dragon’s Dogma (which I believe I played only the demo? I’m not sure right now), but seemed a really interesting concept. Even FFXIV, another MMORPG I personally love, offers many different options for levelling, and a few level gaps when you follow the main storyline, moments when you face a open world with many thing for you to do while you climb that ladder until the next big story challenge.

I must say a part of this must be justifiable when we think this is a CBT, but even so, I’ve no idea what magnitude of changes to expect in the finished game. I wish I could say that the quest reward progression and drop rates could be a little harsher, but even so, with level rushing this kind, I’m not sure if just equip drop tweaking could be much of a help.

[Mirarara]

Yes the quest is actually interesting. But at this point, it felt more like a single player linear RPG where I just finish the game and move on to me.

I think the problem lies in the small world itself. If you compare RO with ToS, there are so many choices where you can grind your character, and most of the quest is not linear but for unlocking a certain special map.

In ToS, you can’t really move on without doing the quest.

[lans1234567890]

People no one forcing you 2 do no quests.you can go and farm for the items you want in map x and for exp in map y.for people like me quests give a reason why i do what i do.there 600 lvls so i dont think we will have guests all thecway up there.
And i say it one more time.the go grind your soul and no quests is a model used in the pre wow times.then a massive game was a game that got somthing like 100k.now days its go have 500k at last or close qs you cant pay for the servers you run.
And if you take out the quests from people like me we will leave but uf the quests are here you can go and grind as well.no one forcing you.
And yes i know quests give more exp and bosses.

[roncesvaux6]

if you’re not gonna do the quest you cant advance…are you stupid or what?
tenel chapel is closed if you’re not gonna do the quest. we’re suggesting this coz we want the game to be better…you will be stuck at lvl 20 map if you’re not gonna finish a single quest.