I don’t want to see Hell plant spamming all over the place then I’m dead… or series of Gates of Hell right in the face. @Lyrical try to play Dragon Nest and you’ll see what cooldowns can do in PVP.
actually in TOS PVP all skills are all set to use at the very start of the match so nothing to worry… you can use any of them right away.
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Hell in Dragon Nest PVP all of your moves start on cooldown, at it was still one of the best PVP games I ever played. If only it stayed that way -.-
You realize that, with the SP system being the way it is, removing CDs will barely make much of a difference. You would just end up burning your SP faster than with CDs, meaning that you will be spamming Z much early on in the fight, throughout the rest of the fight, Assuming you are not using any SP potions.
Though, if you were to use SP potions if CDs were not present, the situation arises on whether or not stocking on potions to spam whenever your SP reaches 0 (which would be very often) would even be cost effective. Given from what I have heard, higher level potions are not cheap, and the lower level ones can only restore so much. You would be spending the majority of your funds stocking on potions so you can spam your skills all willy-nilly, when you could had used those funds on far more important things, such as attributes.
Of course, there is always the option of putting points into SPR to have a larger SP pool, but for it to have a considerable effect, you would need to actually invest into it. Doing so however, could potentially damage your build, since those points put into SPR could be used in a far more valuable stat.
Overall, each scenario all comes down to one problem: SP. SP is what needs to be tweaked on, not CDs.
Lmao u are hilarious. I played RO for 11 years, I played champion for 5 of those years. That game wasnt hard, it was mostly about positioning and thats it. I was able to play any class on woe to fill for my guild(I played: Devo pala,FS prof, Bridge linker(2nd guild), MBK prof, DLP prof). All I had to do was watch a vid from someone playing it and bam, understood what to do. Its not a hard game, at all. And the fact that paladins were only useful for devo, WS were useless, SinX were useless due to pot spamming, Snipers were only good for sharp shooting, etc, made me not like the “meta”. I hope this game doesnt have a “meta” and every class can be useful/do multiple jobs depending on build. Like FS linker or DD Linker.
I have to disagree with what you’re saying overall. You’re reviewing a game as a closed beta in an unfinished state, to a game that’s received many updates. Compare this to RO in it’s original beta form, if you’re going to be fair.
I see this as a game that does build off of a lot of things that RO did well. Killing enemies is actually fun, which makes this game unique. There isn’t any MMO I can play today where just killing enemies is actually enjoyable. It is certainly too easy in it’s current state. I expect the challenge to change as the game progresses though. This isn’t a finished product we were looking at, and giving the feedback for that to change will help.
You’re also cherry-picking a state of RO from a certain time period. If you were to play RO today ( I actually went back and played through it again last December ) you’d find that it’s an extremely easy game. I’ll agree, RO in ~2004 when a lot of people didn’t know what they were doing, and per your example, a lvl 60 wizard / priest in HOs was a good challenge. Again though, that was after RO actually fleshed out it’s 2nd classes, and there was content at that level to consume. This current game state of ToS is like when RO only had 1st classes. Ever kill an MvP on a thief?
In any case, I don’t think that this has anything to do with cooldowns. The system certainly needs to be fleshed out, especially for wizards & clerics. I believe that a well balanced system with cooldowns can make for a very interesting mechanic, and make people choose interesting class skill combinations. I think this will happen as the game evolves.
In RO, since there were no cooldowns ( and the game wasn’t built around it ), many builds ( wizard specifically ) were forced into very cookie cutter states to be efficient. You’re a wiz? Better have storm gust 10, maybe LoV 1, and 99 int/dex. Nothing else really mattered. You had nothing forcing you to use any other skills, and there was one clear winner because it had nothing but a global cooldown, and the only viable CC. You needed to be able to cast that one skill as quickly as possible, with the most damage output.
In any case, even in it’s current state, I view ToS as a great improvement to RO. I’ll be happy to see how it progresses and evolves, and am stoked that it exists. Just because it’s not perfect currently ( or may never be ), and that it isn’t exactly like RO, doesn’t change that.
I agree with almost everything except for the fact that I’m pretty sure half the people defending these cool downs have never even played the game. You seriously need to experience a scenario where a group or someone comes into your area, kills the mobs you just setup fighting, and boom you’re useless for the next 25 to 30 seconds ontop of being completely outed from leveling. So okay no problem? switch channels right? Same thing happens within a minute or people are already there.
Or you’re a Cleric and cast Heal then someone either steals your tiles or people just carelessly walk over them at almost full health then can’t cast it when someone needs it. There’s only going to be more people playing and these forums after release are going to be plastered with posts about these things since there’s a valid reason.
After that I’d assume the only ones who defend them are trolls or people who like the idea of just being a melee and facerolling over others farming areas…because they simply DO NOT have to rely on cool downs to pump out tons more DPS and can just steal someone’s heals.
This is a conclusion is sound only if you accept the elements in play at their most shallow value. Potions aren’t really a part of the equation.
Really, it comes down to player downtime. Running circles around your monster in a fight is not quality downtime. With the absence of cooldowns, players will have a much closer connection to their character’s choices and actions during and between excursions. Spend wisely and carefully and you’re looking at quite an extended excursion. Roll out hot and fast and you’re going to soon find yourself tapped out. This is a meaningful player choice, a choice as meaningful as getting SPR or INT, or leveling in one place or another, or partying or not partying. Cooldowns limit this choice. Yes, limits in games are good - but as you said, we are limited by SP and frankly that is a more dynamic and interesting limit than a timer.
There’s also sitting and campfires. This is a great mechanic to have built around downtime that can absolutely liven the game, especially when there’s a player-player social aspect.
You sound like you know what you’re talking about so I’m really puzzled why you think that a wizard built the way you mention is not going to get all kinds of slaughtered. Rogues, linkers (linkers [linkers]), sages…
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The topic here was really PvE.
I’d rather not descend into some argument about RO’s PvP on the topic of ToS’s closed beta about PvE.
However, I will say that during the time that I played and actively PvP’d / GD war’d / WoE’d ( 2004 ~ 2007 ), the most successful wizards / high wizards were built with max int/dex, remaining points put into vit. I was in the best / most active PvP / WoE guild on the server. This is from a party play perspective, as I played a bard/minstrel. Surely in 1v1 cases you could be right, but most rogues/sages playing during that time frame weren’t very good at PvP ( I don’t know why ), even if their class matchup was favorable.
I played in exactly the way you described for most of the beta as a Cleric (high INT/SPR). I’ve had all those things happen to me but I still prefer cooldowns as they are. While it’s certainly annoying to have those things happen, it’s not the end of the world. I wait a bit and then go at it again. Also, partying with others is a great way to avoid a lot of those problems and imo provides an altogether better experience.
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What you have mentioned are issues that can be addressed separately from CDs: Kill stealing and universal healing tiles, both of which could be resolved in their own way, while still leaving CDs intact.
In the situation where CDs are not present, the most optimal way to be using your skills is whenever possible, meaning whenever you have SP. Not doing so would only detriment your potential DPS.
This is the mindset that I am addressing, in which I believe will become the mindset of many, if CDs are not present.
Downtime is whenever you are unable to use any skills, not whether you choose to do so or not. With CDs, downtime is, of course, when the skills are on CD. Without CDs, downtime is whenever you run out of SP, because that will be the only instance where you are unable to use any skills.
Ultimately, it all leads to what I had addressed.
I heared DN Sea is under ddos attack until now, wonder who’s the culprit behind it hahaha
Correct and suggestions have already been made except for the KSing which isn’t easy to fix and always going to be part of the game. It’s only going to get worse later when literally hundreds and thousands of RO fans pour into open beta/release. I’ve pretty much said all their is to be said and going to sit back and let people experience it for themselves. Within a controlled environment cool downs are managable but that usually never will be the case at all.
Like I had mentioned in my post: this conclusion is of one who only considers the most surface levels of the elements in play.
There is far more to consider than DPS in just about any fight. My highest level was my quarrel shooter and this was especially true for him (DEX/CON).
Downtime is when the player is not in the upper half of the game’s flow. It’s the time when the game is nearer to the boredom side of things. This can be voluntary or involuntary. Without CDs, the player has a lot more control of the flow, and therefore the downtime.
Running circles around a monster waiting for cooldowns is not quality downtime.
Creating a social event around a campfire is quality downtime.
Ultimately, SP is a more dynamic and interesting limit than a timer. Timers have their place (they are very common after all) but I don’t think ToS needs to subscribe to them. It has the support in the right places (such as skill interruption and cast times) to go in a different direction.
[quote=“ophiuchu, post:121, topic:35696”]
Correct and suggestions have already been made except for the KSing which isn’t easy to fix and always going to be part of the game.
[/quote] I feel as if you do not realize that these “kill stealers” are also under the same restrictions as you are when with CDs: they can only use their skills so much until they have to wait again.
In fact, without CDs, they have all the more freedom to kill steal. Kill stealers will benefit just as much as you do without CDs. There is practically no difference as long as it is a feature in this game.
[quote=“PsychoRomeo, post:122, topic:35696”]
Like I had mentioned in my post: this conclusion is of one who only considers the most surface levels of the elements in play.
[/quote] It is a conclusion that people will come across if CDs were to be removed.
True enough, though many people’s judgement will be clouded when they realize they can simply burn through any fight.
[quote=“PsychoRomeo, post:122, topic:35696”]
Downtime is when the player is not in the upper half of the game’s flow. It’s the time when the game is nearer to the boredom side of things. This can be voluntary or involuntary. Without CDs, the player has a lot more control of the flow, and therefore the downtime.
[/quote] I think we both have a different understanding of downtime here, but my point still stands: people will still interpret things at their face value, rather than trying to understand the metagame. Because of this, more complaints would only arise in the future than there will satisfaction.
Not really because USUALLY it was a Swordsman or Archer that just comes in and kills your mob since they don’t have to rely on spell cool downs.
[quote=“ophiuchu, post:124, topic:35696”]
Not really because USUALLY it was a Swordsman or Archer that just comes in and kills your mob since they don’t have to rely on spell cool downs.
[/quote] In solo play, what these class lack in are what mages excel at, range and AoE. By the time an archer kills one target, or a swordsman reaches within range of a group, a mage should be able to kill multiple targets at once with ease, entering CD in the process. Your CDs would more than likely have ended by the time they reach the same amount of kills. It’s the general basics in most MMOs. Unfortunately, due to the nature of support classes, they tend to get the short end of the stick, and as such, are more suited for party oriented play, where other classes can compensate for what you lack.
In a party situation, having one group of mobs stolen will only be a minor inconvenience, as you have 4 other people in the party accumulating kills and experience.
Archer does rely on spell cooldowns past the initial portion of the game. A lot of the feedback about archers is how ineffective they are past level 40 and how they need to use their skills to match up with many other classes auto-attacks.
I’m not sure what previous experiences you’ve had but it doesn’t take much for a human being to figure out how to ration their SP or pace themselves. Do you sprint everywhere you go then complain that you arrive at your destination tired all the time?
[quote=“PsychoRomeo, post:127, topic:35696”]
I’m not sure what previous experiences you’ve had but it doesn’t take much for a human being to figure out how to ration their SP or pace themselves. Do you sprint everywhere you go then complain that you arrive at your destination tired all the time?
[/quote]From my experience in MMOs, you are gravely overestimating people if you think they will put in the same amount of thought and effort as you do into the metagame. You have stated one mindset, and I have stated another, in which the latter of the two will, inevitably, become the mindset of the many, if not, the majority.
I’ll give you a simple example: suppose you give someone a painting to interpret. In most cases, people will only describe what they see; at face value. Of course the painting will mean something entirely different, if you take into the account of the symbolism of the objects, etc.
This same exact scenario will happen once people see that “Since skills X, Y, and Z can be used until I run out of SP, If I just simply use a potion whenever my SP reaches 0, I can indefinitely use my skills throughout the whole fight!”
In the end, there will be people who take things face value. It is the sad, undeniable truth, and it is something that you are not taking into account.
So, do you sprint everywhere then complain about being tired?
I am absolutely able to take face value into account, and my point revolves around exactly what you’re saying. People will drain their SP bars, then drink potions, then drain their silver, then what? Complain they have no silver to buy SP to spam skills? Or do you think they apply something that the average (that is, the ‘many’) person learns before they are twelve years old (consequence)?
I did play in the ToS and I’ve played a lot of other games too. I have at least the most basic understanding of what goes on in a player’s head (being a player myself, I should). “Since I can just stand there and attack until I run out of HP, If I just simply use a potion whenever my HP nears 0, I can indefinitely stand here holding down the attack button throughout the whole fight!”
I agree that users are really dumb and can’t really think for themselves, but this is instinctual. Only the most inexperienced really continue to operate like this for long, and learning this is just part of the game experience. Do not deny people the game experience because you think they’re stupid.