Tree of Savior Forum

🍄 Archer builds/ Skill synergies / Mechanics etc Megathread! 🍄

Class and Rank
#530

It’s a toss up, I haven’t run numbers yet but…
STR doesn’t provide you a single defensive stat, DEX does: Evasion.

The flipside of this is that every at rank 6 you get 1.5X the amount of STR as you do DEX per point.
However, do keep in mind that there aren’t really any gem combinations that will give you all that Evasion difference as well.
Lv5 Green Gem (Footwear) = 17 Evasion
that isn’t much at all, even if you considered
Lv 7 Green Gem (Footwear) = 32 Evasion
That’s 32 DEX equivalent.

I’m sure there’s an optimal amount but since I plan on not playing an archer until after my main money-maker character I haven’t bothered calculating it yet.

#531

1 dex = 1 crit, 1 evasion, 1 accuracy
1 str = 1 attack 1 critattack

Damage gems are much more efficient for ‘replacing’ stat points than crit, evasion or accuracy gems are.

#532

But you forget to factor in the fact strength scales by an additional 10% per rank. At rank 7+ one stat point invested into strength according to tosbase stat calculator, will yield 2 attack damage and 2 critical attack.

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#533

Also str gives your more damage and crit damge that will scale on crit. Its like you get 2.5 crit damage per 1 str.

#534

You get +10% STR/INT per rank however. At rank 6 this is +50% At rank 7 this is +60%.

Max in iCBT3/iOBT will probably be rank 7 lvl 280~ (Given kOBT’s numbers)

This means you get 1.6x STR as compared to DEX.
At lvl 200 full STR gives you : 387 STR
At lvl 200 full DEX gives you : 261 DEX
That’s 126 free stats. According to stat calculator it seems the +10%/Rank comes before ‘Bonus Stat Points’

That means if you go mostly into DEX you are losing at lvl 200 (199 Stat Points, I did not count statues/quest points) 126 Stats

Pretty hard to overcome that with just gems, and shuffling things around properly could probably give you better numbers it seems too.

I guess in the simplest method it would be minimum DEX for 90% crit vs max DEX and comparing the stats they give.

I’ll go off the numbers above

L7 Gems MINIMUM DEX

10 points into DEX (21 DEX)
189 points into STR (367 STR)

P.Atk 567
Crit Attack 367
Accuracy 272 (This stat literally does not matter short of taking from it without roasting, ignore it)
Crit Rate 61 (+88 + 57 -38) = 168*1.25= 210 [The +40 is already off the stat sheet in level]
Evasion 246

L5 Gems MINIMUM DEX

71 points into DEX (91 DEX)
128 points into STR (247 STR)

P.Atk 447
Crit Attack 247
Accuracy 347
Critical Rate 136 (+44+26-38) = 168*1.25=210 [The +40 is already off the stat sheet in level]
Evasion 321

L7 Gems MAX DEX

199 points into DEX (261 DEX)
0 points into STR (10 STR)

P.Atk 210
Crit Attack 10 (+94+49) = 153
Accuracy 512
Critical Rate 301
Evasion 486

Now here’s the kick obviously you don’t want crit rate gems, instead you can do MAX ATTACK and crit attack. Max attack has a large FLAW it only is worth 0.5 PATK per point whereas critting that much Crit Attack is worth CRITICAL CHANCE( 0.9) per point.
L7 Crit Attack = 94 (47x2 Main weapon)
L7 Crit Attack = 49 (x1 Offhand)
Adding this above is how we get that final crit attack.

Now just take a minute to compare to those stats.

Between the L7 Gems max dex and minimu dex required you have a difference of:

STAT | MAX DEX => MIN DEX (Both L7 Gems)
P.Atk | 210 => 567 | (+357)
C.Atk | 153 => 367 (+214)
Acc | 512 => 272 (-240)
C.Rate | 301 => 210 (-91)
Evasion | 487 => 246 (-241)

Accuracy is a garbage stat, neither of those builds need that much.
Critical Rate past the Critical Cap is a waste, that means those points are a waste.

All things equal elsewhere the difference you are trading is
241 Evasion for 357 PHYSICAL ATTACK and 214 CRITICAL ATTACK

I like Evasion, and I believe high evasion has a good role to play in all aspects, both of these builds would probably do better with 20-50 CON but it’s something they’d both lose so I didn’t compare it. Those points will most likely be the bonus points you get from quests.

#535

I see your point, and point out a few of my own.

The 1.25 of swift step probably happens before the crit defense, not that we can test either way.

Max Dex is a bit of a strawman. It can be easily seen that going above the ~90% crit rate is a pretty silly idea.

Max dex would really land somewhere around 170 crit rate, or 130ish Dex.

To steal your format:
L7 Gems MAX DEX
120 points into DEX (157 DEX)
79 points into STR (154 STR)

P.Atk 354
Crit Attack 154 (+94+49) = 287
Accuracy 408
Critical Rate (171-38)*1.25 = 198
Evasion 382

STAT | MAX DEX => MIN DEX (Both L7 Gems)
P.Atk | 354=> 567 | (+213)
C.Atk | 287 => 367 (+80)
Acc | 408 => 272 (-136)
Evasion | 382 => 246 (-136)

136 accuracy, 136 evasion for 213 physical and 80 crit damage.
Rather more fair, I think.

I do still feel that a mixed dex-str build is more ideal, if only because Evasion dominates in PvP, and accuracy is a very big thing in that gamemode. Though silly things like dex/crit from equipment will make things fuzzier. Getting that high dex early is much more important than high strength as well, as it will help you not die early on.

Also, shouldn’t max dex be using a Red gem in it’s offhand? I don’t know how the numbers look at tier 7, but 5 base attack is better than 7 crit attack.

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#536

Well my point mainly was that you’ll always want just to reach the minimum amount of dex for whatever you’re doing and then do it.
Even if and you’re right the 1.25 doesn’t include the loss Crit Resist there (oversight on my part) that’s still the bestbuild, going for the minimum amount of dex to maximize your crit rate and getting the rest into STR.
Accuracy is literally a junk stat for PvE, for PvP it has some worth against full DEX players though!

So you’re trading 100 Evasion for 272 Physical and 29 Crit Attack there
That’s hardly worth it

If you crit 90% of the time you (272*.1)+( (272+29)*.9)) = 298.1 damage on average per hit.
On level 5 multishot alone that is equivalent to a loss of 1,788 damage (3,576 on both shots of that overheat).
For 100 evasion? Most likely not worth it.

We could look towards the other gems on your gear, but honestly I think you will go with the same ones almost every time

L7 Boots: Blue (9 MDEF) vs Green (32 EVA) - MDEF probably
L7 Shirt: Green (29 C.Resist) vs Red (473 HP) vs Yellow (7 PDEF) - HP or crit resist probably
L7 Pants: Green (29 C.Resist) vs Red (473 HP) vs Yellow (7 PDEF) - HP or crit resist probably
L7 Gloves: Red (39 C.Atk) vs Yellow (60 Block Pen) vs Green (44 ACC)- Crit Attack probably

The only time these will come in to help the full dex person IMHO is in PvP where the STR person may need the Gloves to close the Accuracy vs Evasion gap when fighting someone full dex, or the EVA on Boots when fighting someone full DEX and no-mages around.

I’m not sure of the exact Accuracy formula to be honest strictly because missing has never been a problem, so I can’t say just how important closing that gap will be and if the Minimum DEX person would need to close that gap or not.

E: Looks like you edited and changed your numbers for DEX a bit above the 100:99 it was before. Either way, the numbers for hitting crit rate is pretty much what you’re aiming for. Also yes I can confirm that Swift step just multiplies your Critical Rate by 1.25 not the end result so it’s (171*1.25)-38 = 188
but like I said before all my numbers I won’t go change them they’re not that far off, maybe I’ll post my results after I add them into my spread sheet which isn’t that hard to get exact numbers on.

Edit2: Critical Attack still provides more damage, assuming cap is 90% crit and that’s what you are critting
L7 Red 37 P. Atk vs L7 Green 49 Crit Attack
49(0.9 Crit chance) = 44.1 Damage on average*

#537

I feel I’ve edited too many times so I wanted to add. While you are right that mixed STR/DEX is good, and your DEX will raise more later as the cap moves (based on average Crit Resistance of mobs around your level!) there are two important things to note with this

  1. In PvP anyone with heavy CON (Crit Resistance) will hurt both of these builds, the one with less STR gets hurt more

  2. In PvE running into a mob with abnormally high Crit Resistance, they roughly even out. The extra Critical Rate from DEX isn’t wasted and becomes incredibly relevant however the extra damage that STR provided is bridged heavily by this gap because it’s critting less

In the case of some mobs that have been seen to have 100 Crit Resistance this means -70 in the formula or (-70/2.33) -30% Crit Chance.

This can skew the Critical Attack’s worth a lot, and if your gems are based on that can actually make the DEX heavy player (but never full DEX) overcome the Min.DEX player in DPS.

I’m not feeling good today but I feel like this stuff is important so tomorrow during the day I will attempt to fill this information into the calculator I’ve already largely finished and I will provide some results on an optimum choice if possible.

Also 7 Crit Attack with 90% Crit Chance is better than 5 Physical Attack
7*0.9=6.3

#538

Isn’t a crit 1.5xPhysical attack + crit damage?
So red vs yellow is 5x(.1)+5x1.5x(.9) vs 7x(.9) => 7.25 vs 6.3

Also we are talking about level 200 here. 100 evasion is a larger portion of your evasion than 280 attack is of your damage.

Say we have an Arde and an awakened +10 spiked crossbow. With a total damage per hit of ~150+180+287+difference+(360+350+difference)*1.5
or 1500/crit verses 1790/crit, or about 20% of damage per hit.

Whereas evasion is 100+246+difference, or 350vs480, or 35%.

If that directly translated to 35% less damage taken, I’d go dex.

#539

Ah you’re right it’ll factor into the crit that way so it would be more.
I almost finished my calculator for DPS yesterday so I won’t have to worry about forgetting something like that when I plug them in later and I’ll get back to you with that.

I think the evasion will largely depend on the enemy’s accuracy but I haven’t seen someone post anything about accuracy other than the original thought that the chance it just being flat stats. I can try to dig around the files to find it but I doubt I’ll find the time to try hard enough for that since outside of pvp accuracy hasn’t mattered once.

#540

Yeah, I feel like they had to make accuracy not matter for PvE just so that dex didn’t become the end all of physical stats it very nearly is now.

It really is annoying trying to verify miss chances and the like. Maybe someone can figure out a way to get combat data dumps before the script injection problem gets fixed. :smile_cat:

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#541

How does rogue’s capture work? " You may use it later when you need it." Ive seen a rogue copy his own broom trap. When you press capture, what happens? Does your capture turn into a broom trap skill?

#542

Yo.
Rogue’s capture is awesome, possbily best skill from archer tree in general. It won’t make another one from the get go, and also the current one will dissapear. UNLESS you put it down imediatelly after capturing it, then you will have 2 at the same time. It captures everything in a tile, so if lachrymator, broom trap and your other traps are at the same tile, it will take it all.
Also, capture level doesn’t change anything right now but increase SP cost.

Hope you enjoyed the beta!

#543

So as long as I put it down immediately, I can put 2 broom traps? What if I wait for example 3 seconds? If I put it down, will it remove my current broom trap? Thanks

#544

You can have more then two. If you get together two rogues and two sappers for example, you could potentially go to infinity as there doesn’t seem to be a cap on the traps you pick up. It would be time consuming and will most likely not be there after a crash but you know, being able to solo a world bosses with one ability for example? That sounds good to me. And that’s 5 million HP I’m talking about, though I’m pretty sure that amount of broom traps/other traps would crash the channel hahaha :joy:
A friend of mine was telling me that if he uses capture and doesn’t put it back down, the current traps will stop working.

#545

Havent got the chance to test that. So I can collect them indefinitely? I will use broom traps then just collect them, then use it for later? So like no cd brooms? How do you use your collected broom traps then? What skill to use

#546

Can’t do that alone, and you can’t just collect it. You pick something up, then you have to use it.

#547

Okay thanks for that! Hope not much change will happen for my build, My not so much an archer but melee archer build

#548

So my numbers above were actually a bit more off than I thought after properly adding them into the calculator you probably need 0 dex investment at all to hit 90% critical chance.

Based on the numbers I ran last time

L7 gems 10 DEX/189 STR

Gives me 0.99% Critical Chance actually on Bavon, however on Haze it comes down to 86%!

L7 Gems 120 DEX/79 STR

for the hell of it

L7 Gems 0DEX/199 STR

It should be noted that Karacha Dagger’s 11 DEX could be something you’re not going to get later, however since daggers are largely stat sticks it’s not like this can’t be replaced with a better or equivalent DEX stick

For the sake of it since I don’t have physical attack damage from those levels!

L7 Gems (Level 280)

I decided to change Crit Resist to 100, other than that everything is the same.
FULL STR

MIN.DEX (90% Crit)

I didn’t do the almost 1:1 numbers you suggested simply because they don’t seem to match up at L200 and adding in the gem changes manually is a pain.
If you want a copy of the sheet I used let me know and I’ll PM it to you, it’s very sloppy cause it’s just personal use.

The damage is actually a lot closer than I thought it would be though so that’s good!
On Caltrops/Stone Shot the difference really shows though, I imagine probably on higher level skills too but I never incorporated those into my formula. I’d say rogue skills but they get some raw crit chance increase so it’s largely pointless for them anyway.

#549

You should consider awakening bonuses in those calculations, here’s a spreadsheet if you’re interested in what gives what.
Awakening list