Tree of Savior Forum

Lvl170 - 2H vs. Xbow + Mana-mana - Current BIS


Khasti Bow > Maga Bow because of Crit Damage +144 (of course depends on your build and personal preferences, if you want HP)

So I assume Karacha Crossbow > Catacombs Shooter, since it has Crit Damage +150

Oh, I have written this post long time ago but wasn’t able to post due to grinding season -.-

nope Cata out dmg Karacha i have both and test it since Cata has more base dmg

There is only Isability that can out dmg Cata when it atk devil type

This is very true as long as you are not Pure DEX or DEX > STR

In my case, I hit maybe 7/10 crit per normal attack, so I prefer KARACHA CROSSBOW + MANA-MANA is stronger than CATACOMBS SHOOTER + MANA-MANA.

Though, whatever Crossbow (CatacShooter and KarachaCrossbow) is still fine to use, as long as upgrade it at least +5 to lessen damage penalty.

I have also tested it with Maga Bow/Khasti Bow and Khasti takes over Maga bow when Crit,

IMO best for PURE/HIGH DEX TYPE (high crit chance):
Karacha Xbow + Mana-mana
Khasti Bow

Pure/HIGH STR (less CRIT chance)
Catac Shooter + Mana-mana
Maga Bow

Karacha Set for Rogue ofcourse.

(always bring 2H bow for Flying)

THIS IS ONLY TRUE when you got your mana-mana on.
otherwise, using KHASTI bow is not really bad at all and its very cheap compared to those mentioned above.

Situational Bow:
Isbality - vs Devil/Demon (is it the same?)
Magas Crossbow - boost HP/Sp

Note: Khasti bow = Catacombs Bow

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really? I have tested Catacombs Shooter vs my Seimos Crossbow, and it has 200-300 damage difference when Crit, or im not sure if its because my Seimos crossbow is +6 which reduce the bow penalty.

Have you used both +0? what are the scenarios?

I am talking about crit damage here.
Since Attack difference between bows are Phy +71 and Critdamage is +150

Please confirm and put screenies if you still got those bows

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Yup I agree with you with that Cata for Pure Str and Karacha for pure Dex, but for those who play Str : Dex (like mine lol) I prefer more base dmg

yup it the same that devil/demon (this is from waht i heard never try Isability before.)

And i dont have Karacha xbow anymore i only have +7 Cata (2 Yellow Crit atk to compensate the Crit atk from Karacha) i find it better since im a Flectcher i can benefit more dmg from DOT (bleeding and burning) and from how crit atk work having higher base dmg will eventaully yield from 150 crit dmg this is what i think i can be wrong

I think Khasti or even Viper is enough to carry on 2h Bow since we have plenty of dmg from attribute (100%) so better invest money more on Manamana lol

So whatever crossbow can be used as long as with mana-mana will out damage the 2H bow.
(personally I prefer Karacha Crossbow because of its cool looks and +1ms, but way expensive that catacombs shooter)

I’ve done several testing but still +Crit Damage out damage the +Physical Attack stat when Critical was landed. but im not 100% sure and accurate if my tests are good.

Well likewise, if your build is DOT/Burning then VIPER is really good as it ticks with the damage/burn.

Mana-mana is worth it. Take advantage that only Archers can use this! (but I heard Corsair can also use? idk)


nothing for me to say anymore you pretty much sum it all, it just depend on people who prefer heavy crit dmg or pure str like wugushi or me as a Str:Dex fletcher but yea it if pure dex should go for Karacha hand down like all those crazy fast AA classes

I think Cosair 3 can use but there skill benefit more from higher pistol dmg im not sure tho

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Renaming the topic
Lvl170 - 2H vs. Xbow + Mana-mana - MAYBE current BIS

Well yeah, readers just read and let them decide which equipment they can use that suites them and their budget.

Well this one will be my next testing, if +10~12 Grand Cross is better than Karacha Crossbow for AA QS3, now re-rolling :smiley:

Catacombs Shooter is really a bad choice if you just want the added physical attack. If you really want more base atk, it’s better to just stick with your current crossbow and swap to at Lv220.

Personally, I don’t like Crossbow+Sub-wep because of the expense and it’s advantage isn’t that much compared to 2H-Bow when you consider how high your damage can go later at higher levels. The additive damage from sub-wep is really insignificant unless you are going for pure CON builds aka PVP.

For example, I will use Feint+Barrage as an example. My current Feint+Barrage does 8k per arrow. If I changed to Xbow+Mana-mana, let’s say it gets reduced to 7k per arrow cause of Xbow’s lower base but Mana-mana just adds 278 damage to it which is roughly a 3.5% damage increase. The added crit rate ofc is technically still a DPS increase but as I’ve mentioned, would you really spend that much for such a small increase against 2H-Bow’s damage?

Edit: Final note, as character base level and skill attributes level go higher and higher, the more and more these additive damage from sub-weapons become irrelevant. It might seem “WOW” at first because everyone hasn’t reached end-game yet or properly min-maxed their characters but once everyone reaches the point where their damage are reaching 5-6 digits, those who favors using sub-weapons will finally realize how important the base damage of your primary weapon is and how it’s not worth spending so much for stuff like Mana-mana.

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it depends on attack type

aa / dot / poison will be more happy with element damage increased from sub-weapon than those who have high base damage attack

Well, could we go deeper?

Which bow you used?
Is the damage crit or white ones?

Have you compared it using your current equip vs Xbow + mana-mana?

I agree if you really dont have the means then don’t push your self with this equips, but if you can afford then why not boost your damage 400-500 maybe 1k or more on higher levels.

Based on my all damage testing (I have acquired and test Khasti, Maga, Catacombs Xbow, Karacha xbow, Isbality, Magas Xbow) I never got a result that 2H bow is stronger than Xbow+Mana-mana. but ofc, im just level 180~ish and dunno for late game.

That is because your Mana-mana is still scaling well. It’s like how Arde is so good at early levels because you can’t simply get that 153 damage boost on any tick easily from other source.

There is attributes for skills and this boosts even the modifier of skills. Modifiers takes damage from your base. The higher the modifier, the more important increasing base damage becomes.

I’m sure you don’t see it impossible to see 10k damage at end-game right? Heck even some KR players are reaching the damage cap which is 99999. But let’s make the discussion less hardcore so I’ll use 10k as an example. Once you do 10k, the 278 lightning added by Mana-mana is just a mere 2.8% damage increase.

Now let’s go back to Feint+Barrage. Barrage by itself has 500% modifier. With Feint, it becomes double, so that’s 1000%. Eventually, I will reach Lv100 Attribute on my Barrage: Enhance so that doubles the modifier again becoming 2000% as final. Barrage has 3 charges so if all are used, the final total is a 6000% burst.

Just an example, for around Lv170-220, 2H-Bow will have an average 80 base damage advantage over Crossbows, and yes that’s considering the damage variance.

This 80 damage will affect the 6000% modifier of 3x Feint+Barrage. 80*6000% = 4800 damage. That’s not even considering critical yet.

Now, let’s see how Mana-mana will affect Barrage. Good thing Barrage is a multi-hit skill so the additive damage will have better scaling. Barrage’s 15 hits * 278 = 4170 damage. It cannot crit so it stops there.

Even without considering that base attack can crit, 2H-Bow’s base attack advantage already won against Mana-mana’s additive damage if we’re considering everything is at it’s peak (Maxed Attributes).

Now before others say I’m biased on Feint+Barrage. I’ll put another example. Magic Arrow. 25 hits with 100% modifier each.

At max level attribute, it becomes 200% modifier. 200%25 = 5000% total.
Using the sample 80 base attack advantage, 80
50 = 4000 damage. If it crits, 6000 damage.

With Mana-mana this time, 25 hits * 278 = 6950 damage.

This time Mana-mana won. But consider that the comparison was just using Lv170-220 2H-Bow vs Crossbow. Now, checkout the difference of Lolopanther Bow and Lolopanther Crossbow. You would finally have your answer.

P.S. Do not use normal attacks as comparison. Normal attacks are just forever 100% modifier.

For the Catacombs Shooter vs Seimos Crossbow, I can confirm that Seimos will win when the attack is cri. The damage difference is around 100-300.

Even if you are using skills and it is not cri, the damage difference is insignificant. I tested it with Cannon Blast and Barrage.

However, the Catacombs is better when auto-attacking. The difference is around 90-120.
Therefore, the Quarrel shooter or High STR builds will benefit from Catacombs shooter.
For High DEX build I recommend Seimos crossbow or Karacha crossbow.

And can you tell us how you achieve 8K per arrow. This is awesome. Maybe you can tell us your build.

But attributes is calculated at the end, so at level 100 attributes, you’re getting 4170 * 2 = 9340 damage from manamana.

220 Superior Wreech bow ftw.

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I just knew this. This might be explained why Seimos crossbow is better than the Catacombs when Cri

Will create a proper guide about my build on the future.

(((((Skill Attack + Effective Attack) + (random(0% … 100%) * Magic Amplification)) * (100% + T0)) - ((Effective Defense * (100% + Level Penalty)) + Elemental Resistance)) * (100% + (0 or 50% if crit)) + (0 or Critical Attack) + Extra Elemental Attack + Enemy Specific Damage) * (100% + T1) * (100% + T2) * (100% + T3) * (100% + Enhance) + Bonus Damage

Would be nice if it really was but the answer is no. Any bonus damage from Arde, Mana-mana, headgear elem atk enchants, Blessing, Crit Attack, etc etc are all additive to the final damage output.

I think you missed 1 bracket.
This has the same formula as yours, and its taken from vyne’s pdf sheet.

It wasn’t my formula. Credit goes to EternalDream and other people who contributed.

Edit: Didn’t notice quickly but on your formula, “BONUS” is also final additive.

I know it’s not yours. What I meant by yours is “the one you linked (or provided)”.
Nitpicking aside, they’re both the same formula.

Also, you should be looking at ENHANCE, not BONUS for attributes.