Tree of Savior Forum

Low Rank Clasess fall off

Gameplay Feedback General Feedback
#103

Again, as I’ve said, why should I not have my own choices? Why is the game deciding for me? Why not me instead? If I want to choose just between Archer C3 and Musketeer, why should I be at fault for doing so? Why should I have no freedom to choose between the classes I want? Isn’t narrowing down the choices natural like how you narrow down your choices between the 4 main classes?

Being viable or not isn’t the main issue. It’s about how to “not” underperform. Archer C3 is simply outplayed by alot of higher ranked classes. Picking it means you are crippling your own build. Wow, just how many times should I say this.

#104

It’s not a fault for choosing to do so, but it’d make your statement of:

being a contradiction since you’re the one making this choice but you blame it on the game forcing you…

Or rather, if you think archer c3 is that weak, why even compared it to Musketeer after narrowing down your choice earlier? You apparently narrowed out the other classes to just these two, so there has to be a reason Archer c3 is still ‘in’ even though SR c2 is out?

#105

Okay. My bad. Let me get this straight then, when I said viable, I was thinking about classes who can keep up with the meta. Classes that doesn’t underperform too much compared to the best builds thus being viable.

I narrowed down the choices to set a clear example of how a low rank class cannot compete with a high rank class thus forcing me to pick the higher rank for better performance unless I want to cripple myself for picking a low rank class instead. I can’t believe I have to state the obvious.

#106

Even given your definition of viable, I still think C3 Archer can keep up vs Musketeer, although maybe not in your build.

Going into c2->c3 you ‘can’ get:
5% more evasion bonus to your whole party.
more attack speed/attack range on kneeling shot
More damage on Multishot
twin arrows which I believe now have 6 overheat charges and 7s cd and +50% damage bonus against cloth

Critical Shot from Ranger does diminish the benefit of twin arrows somewhat, but the rest of the bonus are something worth considering.

There’s also things outside of just skills to consider.
Archer/Range/SR skills can be used with crossbow/pistol, meaning you can use Mana-Mana for insane bonus damage, as well as the crossbow mastery of ignoring 25% of target’s defense, both of which will not be used when using Musket skill because you’ll switch to a musket.

Another thing is the actual cast time of skills.
While Musketeer skills cast quite fast, it still take up some amount of time. If your other skills already took up all your time til now then the time you spend using Musketeer skills replaces those skills you used before, thus the actual ‘gain’ of adding Musketeer to your list might not be as big as number on paper provides. (Retreat shot takes up a fair bit of time)

Well, that’s my opinion on balancing topic anyway, there are other factors which are harder to quantify (like player’s own playing habit or whether the build is aiming to party more, solo, PvP, world boss farming, etc) so a build might not seem viable from one view point might be quite powerful from another.

#107

Fair enough. You should have said so from the beggining. It made whole discussion pointless.

I still think its silly because instead of letting players choose their skill bar set up we are more or less ordered what spells we should keep and what we should just use to get to next rank.

But whatever. Maybe then they can at least make low rank c3 be worth getting over new rank. I am speaking of scout to be more precise - seeing damages from rogue, fletcher, and other higher ranks i have little to no reason to go for archer c3 scout c3 anymore. Especially if i want to get c3 rogue afterwards.[quote=“rofldat, post:83, topic:143946”]
Care to go into detail? How is a skill with 25 hits on 5 second cooldown and over 1000 skill damage at max rank not as strong as them?
[/quote]

Its the same with Flare shot: enemy can just walk away from it, getting maybe 3 ticks of dmg if not less.

#108

I am aware of this. Still doesn’t change the fact that earlier ranking c3 will be not worth picking unless you really want some buffs from it. Thats disapointing.

#109

…

That build was just a sample. You don’t need to go through the details on it. Although, I do stand corrected when I checked that Archer C3 was indeed buffed alot, especially with that improved Twin Arrow. I was considering things based on CBT2 stuff although I’m updated with some classes eg: QS, Wugu, etc.

Anyhow, considering what I said is just a sample, my main point was that kind of situation also applies to other classes. It might not apply to Archer C3 considering how strong it is now but it applies to Scout C3 where when it comes to AOE, Scout is now extremely outplayed by Fletcher with Crossfire with 0s cooldown, not to mention, you get a better Flare Shot aka Magic Arrow. Scout C3 was supposed to be my main class but I ended up changing to Fletcher C3 simply because it’s too powerful and outplays Scout in every way. So in my situation, the example I gave applies.

In the end, there’s still alot of classes that really falls off where a player is forced to go for the better option to keep up with the meta. Low rank classes falling off leading to killing diversity to an extent is still a fact.

#110

That comparison is hardly fair though since you’re only comparing damage aspect when Scout’s main benefit is its utilities.

ALL of Fletcher’s skills are attacks, whereas Scout only real attacks are Flare and Split Arrow.

If only damage matters, then Squire/Alchemist/Pardoner should be given damage abilities? Because right now those are balanced by the utilities they offer for sacrificing any real damage options.

It’s still not the game forcing you though. You still made that decision to focus solely on damage.

Oh btw, I WILL be going Scout.

#111

Nope, it IS fair. Why? Let’s say Scout does indeed have a very useful utility skill which is Cloaking. Fletcher also offers -75% defense which you can also consider as utility as it’s main purpose isn’t to deal damage but debuff the enemy instead. Overall? Scout is outplayed.

As much as I would love to play Scout C3 “again”, I also play competetively so if I were to push for getting Scout, I can only get C1 simply because Cloaking’s utility whether PVE or PVP is too good.

P.S. My main purpose for getting Scout was for damage btw, just that alot of the other Archer classes were buffed too much that Scout is now an underdog class. http://i.imgur.com/RiFOAaa.jpg

#112

So you think comparing classes of different purposes only on one aspect, instead of actually viewing from multiple angles, is fair…

Man archers are so bad they can’t even heal unlike Clerics, or jump and shoot like Wizards, or sprint like Swordsman.

See how stupid that sound?

#113

This is getting way far from the main topic. Also, it’s dumb to compare Archers with the other main classes because they obviously got huge difference in gameplay/role while Archers can be compared as their roles isn’t far from what the other branches can do.

And as I’ve mentioned, the comparison is fair. Comparing the utility they give, comparing the single or AOE dps they can offer. It’s like comparing how Clerics and it’s branches can support, how the other branches focus more on DPS and less on support. Both Scout and Fletcher has something that can be compared so it’s just natural that I’ll have to choose the class that offers much more to stay competetive which is a flaw in the design. Scout “should” be able to keep up as well.

Indeed, you trying to compare Archers to the other main class sounds very stupid.

#114

Yes you should compare all of them.

Yet this is the thing you said:

You say every way, and guess which of the two skills you compare?

Crossfire and Magic Arrow.

Where’s Flu Flu? Cloak? Perspective Distortion? Even if you ignore Flu Flu both cloak and distortion are utilities Fletcher cannot replicate.

If Fletcher truly ‘outplayed’ (whatever that means) Scout in ‘every way’, how come I don’t see Fletcher being able to stealth?

I think the term you’re looking for is out-damage, which is something I’d agree, but once again you’d be comparing a class meant for utility to a class meant for damage.

It’s like comparing Squire to Doppel.

#115

Please. Flu-flu? It barely even does it job and has an absurd cooldown. Perspective Distortion? Please tell me how reliable this buff is and how worth it is using for the benefits with the ridiculous SP consumption.

Now you’re digging your own grave. A Fletcher is able to take Scout C1 w/o a problem because Scout is availabe earlier than Fletcher. Cloaking at Lv5 alone already provides an almost 100% uptime on invisibility.

Then if you consider once the build has Scout on Rank 4 and Fletcher at Rank 5. Which is now better to take for Rank 6 and 7? There is already the most useful skill of Scout available with almost 100% uptime, I don’t see how getting Perspective Distortion at C2 can outplay a Fletcher getting Magic Arrow at C2, not to mention, as Fletcher increases it’s ranks, the skills gets significantly more effective eg: Bodkin Point gets more defense reduction, Crossfire getting increased AOE damage. Scout gets a mere few increased hits on Flare Shot while Perspective Distortion is still situational, unreliable most of the time and eats tons of SP. Note: I know how to use Perspective Distortion, I know the Scout needs to be near the enemies yet in most-cases, the skill is still extremely unreliable and risky.

There’s also no need to compare Scout C3 to Fletcher C3 because we already got an obvious winner.

So in-case you still didn’t get it. A Fletcher can still play stealth like Scout but when it comes to investing more ranks on one of them, Fletcher is obviously the better choice. Scout “should” be able to keep up with the meta.

#116

Since you are comparing it THAT way.

What about Scout c3 Musketeer vs Scout c1 Fletcher c3?

Is that still ‘outplayed’ by Fletcher? Or is it ‘viable’ enough now that it’s an actual build?

What meta? Your arbitrary focus on DAMAGE which is not what Scout is about?

Or what, should Cryomancer be able to do damage on par with r7 classes on top of its permafreeze setup?

#117

The point went over your head. It’s about choosing which is better for the improvement of the build. Why must Scout C3 be outplayed so much by Fletcher C3? Why can’t Scout at least keep up, offer more stuff even if not damage but at least provide more utility that has some actual use. Just look at Corsair, the class has a clear role of a pirate leader, specializes on unlocking treasures and pillaging YET can dish out considerable amount of DPS. Why can’t Scout be like that? Why does Scout gets an unreliable risky buff with extreme SP consumption instead? Why is the main damaging skill of a Scout C3 way outclassed by alot of the other Archer classes?

About your Scout C3 > Musketeer, I don’t have anything to say to you if you chose to cripple your own build.

Cryomancer is EXTREMELY good on doing it’s role which is massive crowd control, so adding DPS that can compare with the higher rank classes on top of it’s top tier CC is just overpowered and dumb, how did that even cross your mind?

Like my comparison with Scout and Corsair, Corsair is also doing it’s clear role as a pirate leader but why does Scout just falls-off in every way? Utility is unreliable, damage output is outclassed, the only useful thing I see on Scout now is Cloaking. When it comes to being useful to tackling the game content, Scout just cannot keep up.

It’s about the “actual” overall usefulness of the class.

1 Like
#118

They should just get rid of all flat values.

They have enough tools to create 500+ different skills, actually they can create much more.

  • % damage of your atack
  • cooldown
  • mana/stamina cost
  • number of targets
  • range
  • upfront damage x dot x both
  • cast time
  • being able to cast while moving or not
  • item cost (trap, poison pot, etc)
  • apply crowd control effect
  • dependance on an specific status to work (frozen enemy for an example)

There are many, many ways to combine these and balance all the skills in a way they all are useful, while being different. And I’m talking just about offensive spells.

#119

And you missed my mine: Not everything is about MOAR DEEPS.

In MY build, I don’t need anything from Fletcher. But I don’t come in here saying “oh Fletcher is useless it has nothing that I WANT”
You talk of ‘meta’ but so far it’s just been your own opinion on what is ‘meta’.

Oh btw, you never seem to mention one ‘downside’ of Fletcher, the crafting required:

Exactly, so maybe demanding “buff low rank classes” without thinking about that aspect would be VERY DUMB isn’t it.

#120

You’re obviously just quoting me where it’s convenient for you. It’s hopeless continuing this argument with you. Go ahead and think that everything is fine with the current class system and diversity of the classes. Not to mention, you’re starting to shove words into my mouth. I never said to buff all low rank classes.

I’m just not blind to the truth that there are people who sees that there are indeed some low rank classes that falls off and it kills the diversity of classes to an extent since the game actually limits you into two options, either you pick the better class or cripple your own build.

Whatever, I’m out.

2 Likes
#121

Much like you mine.

and yet you decide whether a class is ‘meta’ based on their damage output alone, such way of thinking will totally bring diversity…

I’ve seen every single classes in the game picked by someone in some build, so either your idea of diversity is completely different than mine or apparently this isn’t ‘diverse’ enough for you.

#122

Tbh Scout feels like forced class to put in archer tree. It doesn’t give anything useful, just SELF-invisibility, wich isn’t gonna help allies - quite lame for a “support”, dont you think? If Rogue would get Cloaking and removed Burring rogue would be perfect class that has cool self buff and good dmg (with karacha set).

All of Scout spells are either copy of other classes spells (Flare shot vs Magic arrow - flare shot is weaker version; Split Arrow vs Oblique Shot - here split arrow is better BUT it doesnt scale well making it pointless to aim for it if it can’t keep up with the dmg and might as well stick to spamming oblique shot for 0cost spammable bouncing aoe and pick stronger rank class instead of scout c3) or it has useless spells (flu flu IS useless, sorry but thats a fact, its effect is pointless and has low dmg to the sp cost it have + long cooldown makes it not worth using; hiding in barrel is useless 99% of the time - you might use it when your grinding for exp group overdid the lure of physical melee monsters, but wont help you vs magic types or ranged ones anyway, so it is very limited in use + you cant use your attacking spells while in barrel wich also such, especially that you cant combine it with kneeling shot because of that; distortion is just pointless buff that doesn’t help your team even, because it makes them deal a total of 1 extra member of dmg if all of them attack but it excludes your own dmg from calculation because you will be waving, making it counterproductive (especially that archer class can have highest dmg in your team if you pick high damaging ranks), so using it makes your team deal less dmg overall AND drain a lot of your SP in process).
Did i miss something? OH yes scan - whats the point to use it if you could just use damaging aoe in its place that will not only reveal but also hurt the enemy if it happen to be there.

Scout is just 1 big mistake that imc doesnt care about. Nobody in their right mind should aim for scout c2, not to mention c3. Maybe if Split Shot had nice dmg scaling some people would consider picking this gimmick class, despite other spells being lame for this class.

I have made suggestion to scout improvements, but it seems imc didnt read or ignored them. OH WELL, thats 1 less class for archer, coz scout is so bad its like non existant choice.