Low Rank Clasess fall off

[rofldat]

Sorry but what I did was to counter your order with the same order. One does not simply tell people to stop without being told to stop telling them to stop. Thats all there was to it.

Ok, let me put it another way: Think about how your suggestion will affect the rest of the game before suggesting it.

There, is it easier to understand now?

Is it OK for you that lower level rank spells will be meaningless and only 1 or 2 of their spells will remain used in meta?

The answer is still yes. The specific reason actually differs between each class tree but the argument stands that if your low rank class skills are effective enough why bother with higher rank ones at all (especially if you’ve already invested in attributes of those low rank skills)

No its not. Not as strong as cannoneer and musketeer skills.

Care to go into detail? How is a skill with 25 hits on 5 second cooldown and over 1000 skill damage at max rank not as strong as them?

And do you think that build would be still viable at r8, when even more powerful class might be released then the r7 ranked ones? I seriously DOUBT that. Unless we get some changes made.

Actually, care to define your definition of ‘viable’? To me viable is something that still have uses, but I don’t limit that definition to combat only because that’d make Squire/Pardoner/Alchemist ‘not viable’ (Squire c3 would limits you to only rank 1-4 of the tree)

Also, while I don’t know about the rank 3 classes, I do know Cryo 3 Elem 3 is ‘viable’ in earth tower.

You can’t really tell that.

I can’t be bothered to dig up which interview it was, but the Dev said they made skills don’t scale to avoid people having to deal with too many hotkeys.

So unless they’ve changed their mind (which I’ve yet to find any evidence of such), yes it is by design.

[Dream]

The specific reason actually differs between each class tree but the argument stands that if your low rank class skills are effective enough why bother with higher rank ones at all (especially if you’ve already invested in attributes of those low rank skills)

Why bother or not bother with higher rank classes? Diversity.

I understand that in no way should lower classes match or outplay a higher rank class but on most cases, choosing lower rank classes over higher rank classes “cripples” your build instead of just making the build “abit” less effective.

I get that “some” lower rank class has really good skills to offer at higher ranks but once you compare it to a getting a high rank class instead, that certain lower class becomes less of an option. It simply kills diversity unless the player chose to cripple his/her own build and “that” is a problem. A bad design.

[kaixermax]

When R8 is released, a subset of the skills will become R8. When R9 is released, a subset of the skills will become R9. Same thing that happened with R5 and R6.

That is true. R6 gets nerfed after they announced R7. So, I think R7 will get nerfed too.

---

I do not know if this is related to the topic, but I just wanted to tell you what I think. LOL

I believe all the other classes will be introduced at Rank 8, that is the only way for them to make all classes have 3 circles (Rank 8 C1, Rank 9 C2, Rank 10 C3). This means that at Rank 8 you will have 4 classes or more to choose instead of 2 (not including the hidden class). (I may be wrong )

I think this is the only way to balance the new class at a high level and without taking too much time to do balancing to all classes from Rank 1 to Rank 10. If it takes too long, people may have lost interest in this game because of the unbalanced.

So, I think the biggest class balancing will only begin when all classes were introduced in this game.

[elfochka]

We don’t know if this will happen. It only happened once and it was in the CLOSED BETA TEST. I doubt they will do such crazy things in the release, this is a bad way to manage a released game.

[c2gaming]

They release all the skills to c1 so they can be tested as soon as the class is taken and not 2 circles later. It’s called a beta TEST.

[elfochka]

This is no longer a beta test in Korea, and since all changes are made there first, iTos is unlikely to be treated differently.

Btw, it took them only a few weeks to turn the korean obt into a release.

[c2gaming]

I blame Nexon. That and the Koreans don’t test as much anyway. With iOBT taking forever to start I expect it to last longer with us.

But basically it’s the same thing, IMC releases all skills for a class at 1 rank to test then break it up later for the class’s “official” release.

[rofldat]

I get that “some” lower rank class has really good skills to offer at higher ranks but once you compare it to a getting a high rank class instead, that certain lower class becomes less of an option. It simply kills diversity unless the player chose to cripple his/her own build and “that” is a problem. A bad design.

The problem is that you’re comparing the choice without context, when class choice at each rank is taken based on the rest of its choices, thus a ‘build’.

For example, saying I’ll take Cryomancer at rank 7 would be ‘crippling’ my build based on your word.
But is it?
If my build is Wiz Cryo c2 Elem c3, that c3 Cryo would gives me Snowball and Frost Tree. Which I think more people will agree to be better option than Warlock/Featherfoot.

Of course taking class that doesn’t fit your build will hurt you, but that’s less of ‘oh this low rank class is weak’ and more of ‘this build is not very good’.

There’s another problem that comes with ‘give bonus based on when you take X class’ is build order can ends up breaking balance between two players of the same build.

In the C3 Cryo C3 Elem example above.
If A takes Cryo C3 then Elem C3
B Cryo 2, Elem 3, Cryo 3rd at rank 7.

Is B ‘punished’ for not delaying that c3 Elem til rank 7? Being a ‘crippled’ Wiz compares to A?

We don’t know if this will happen. It only happened once and it was in the CLOSED BETA TEST. I doubt they will do such crazy things in the release, this is a bad way to manage a released game.

WoW changed its talent system, dungeon finding, etc.

System revamps are costly, but it’s not something ‘impossible’ after the game releases.

[elfochka]

WOW has free respec, you can’t change you circle choices in ToS, even with money.

[Dream]

The problem is that you’re comparing the choice without context, when class choice at each rank is taken based on the rest of its choices, thus a ‘build’.

For example, saying I’ll take Cryomancer at rank 7 would be ‘crippling’ my build based on your word.But is it?If my build is Wiz Cryo c2 Elem c3, that c3 Cryo would gives me Snowball and Frost Tree. Which I think more people will agree to be better option than Warlock/Featherfoot.

Of course taking class that doesn’t fit your build will hurt you, but that’s less of ‘oh this low rank class is weak’ and more of ‘this build is not very good’.

There’s another problem that comes with ‘give bonus based on when you take X class’ is build order can ends up breaking balance between two players of the same build.

In the C3 Cryo C3 Elem example above.If A takes Cryo C3 then Elem C3B Cryo 2, Elem 3, Cryo 3rd at rank 7.

Is B ‘punished’ for not delaying that c3 Elem til rank 7? Being a ‘crippled’ Wiz compares to A?

That’s why I mentioned “some”, of course, some low rank classes are still very effective even if you take their higher ranks later on. The same logic applies to taking Quarrel Shooter C3 at Rank 7 which definitely outplays both Musketeer or Cannoneer due to how powerful Running Shot is.

This is why if you backread, I gave a sample of what happens if my build is rather not leaning towards having powerful low rank classes to begin with. The sample I gave was Archer > Ranger C3 > Archer C2 > SR> ???. Then let’s say I only want Musketeer or Archer C3 as my choices because I don’t want to play Cannoneer nor add a random low rank C1 class. The obvious choice becomes Musketeer simply because Musketeer has a whole lot better stuff to offer compared to Archer C3. This is why there’s no true diversity on the current class system. Your sample was just convenient due to how useful Cryo C3 is.

[rofldat]

My point was that beta/release status doesn’t mean the game won’t change.

This is why there’s no true diversity on the current class system. Your sample was just convenient due to how useful Cryo C3 is.

And in your sample you yourself limited your own choice, not the game.
You can’t really say there’s no diversity when your argument is that YOU don’t like the choices.

I mean, since you had SR, why not SR c2? That’s neither Musketeer/Archer c3 nor a random c1 of a low rank class.
There’s also Falconer c1 for Circling, unless in your eye rank 6 is still ‘low rank’

Okay, let’s imagine that every c1 class option can do equal/on par damage with Musketeer. Would your Archer c3 vs Musketeer option really change? And why?

While at it, please answer the A vs B Cryo 3 Elem 3 I mentioned.

[Dream]

And in your sample you yourself limited your own choice, not the game.You can’t really say there’s no diversity when your argument is that YOU don’t like the choices.

Limited my own choice? Shouldn’t I be the one to pick my own build in the first place? If I need to choose depending on which are the “only good options” then where is the diversity in that? True diversity should not limit the choices whether to one or a few. Why do I need to pick other classes than my own choices? Isn’t that a flaw in the design?

Why can’t Archer C3 be good? The way you reply it’s because Archer C3 is bad and I’m forced to pick another better option. Where is the freedom now? You just proved how strict the current class system is.

Okay, let’s imagine that every c1 class option can do equal/on par damage with Musketeer. Would your Archer c3 vs Musketeer option really change? And why?

If every C1 class are on par with Musketeer. I wouldn’t need to take any C2 classes. The question is full of flaws.

There’s another problem that comes with ‘give bonus based on when you take X class’ is build order can ends up breaking balance between two players of the same build.

In the C3 Cryo C3 Elem example above.If A takes Cryo C3 then Elem C3B Cryo 2, Elem 3, Cryo 3rd at rank 7.

Is B ‘punished’ for not delaying that c3 Elem til rank 7? Being a ‘crippled’ Wiz compares to A?

I don’t get why you’re directing this question to me. I don’t even get why you pull such an argument. Did I suggest a change where you get certain bonuses depending on when you take a certain class? Don’t drag me to your arguments with the other people here.

Stay on the topic where I replied to you.

[rofldat]

True diversity should not limit the choices whether to one or a few. Why do I need to pick other classes than my own choices? Isn’t that a flaw in the design?

Exactly, YOUR own choice, not the game forcing it down your throat.

Does the game limit you to only choosing Archer c3 or Musketeer only? No.
Then is that not the ‘diversity’ you spoke of? To not limit the choice.

So what is limiting it down to just Archer c3 and Musketeer? Yourself.

My point still stand, it’s not the game limiting you, it’s you limiting yourself.

[Dream]

You can’t see the fact that the game forces one or a few classes to be the only viable options thus killing true diversity. Archer C3 being a bad option to pick at higher ranks and needs to be replaced with better choices is a solid proof that some low rank classes INDEED falls off and this will remain a FACT.

You can be entitled to your own opinion but you cannot alter facts.

[rofldat]

some low rank classes INDEED falls off and this will remain a FACT.

I don’t disagree with that, earlier I already mentioned this:

I can’t be bothered to dig up which interview it was, but the Dev said they made skills don’t scale to avoid people having to deal with too many hotkeys.

Classes falling off is NOT something I disputed.

What I argued against you was about build diversity, in that YOU limit your own choice of classes to pick, not the game.

That in your Archer c2 Ranger c3 SR build, it was not the game forcing Archer c3 vs Musketeer on you, but you yourself who denies all the other option.

So in your own word:

Stay on the topic where I replied to you.

[Dream]

If you think there is nothing wrong with the game forcing you to choose only viable options, then I have nothing more to say. So much for freedom on builds. Such diversity.

[rofldat]

How/where does the game ‘force’ you to pick only ‘viable options’?
What even defines ‘viable options’ anyway?

If it comes back to it being your opinion, please go read my posts again.

[Dream]

How/where does the game ‘force’ you to pick only ‘viable options’?

How can you ask something so obvious? Isn’t it obvious enough that it’s all for the improvement of the build? I needed to spell that out for you?

What even defines ‘viable options’ anyway?

Why are you pointlessly dragging other topics into this discussion? Isn’t viable options what it is? Viable?

To be honest, I didn’t even bother anymore, I didn’t mention how the classes you mentioned such as SR C2 is actually R7 class, Falconer is R6., real “low” rank classes were not viable options. The game forced the player to pick within a few class unless the player is willing to cripple their own build. Just how thick can you be that the logic of this can’t get through you.

I already gave up, you’re just arguing now for the sake of arguing.

[nerdpiggleton]

I don’t feel the game is forcing anyone to pick anything really, some classes specialize more in some scenarios where others don’t and you could build your character with one gimmick in mind and succeed. There are solo and party PVE builds that are complete trash in PVP or you could build your character for PVP and be complete trash in GVG, then your character could even be useless in end game dungeons. Some classes need a little bit of tuning but the roles of each class is pretty much clear. The game at the moment is barebones to the point where all of the roles don’t have proper representation.

As long a you stick with a theme in this game your build will be fine overall. You will not be rewarded for putting skills carelessly. You can do what you want but you have to know what you are doing essentially. Not every build is going to end up giving you tons of damage,as that would really defeat the point of making choices and investments in your character.

I’m not going to deny nonetheless that some classes are stronger than others, but that doesn’t mean that the game is forcing you to pick a certain path. Rank 7 is appealing at the moment for most classes mostly because you have 3 circles at your disposal in one choice. Once again I will reiterate, the game is still at its infancy, so who knows how much GVG will matter and how PVE will progress.

When it comes to low ranks even those have uses depending on how strong you want them to be (with very few exceptions but those are problems within the classes themselves overall at all stages) but if you look around it is possible. The only thing is you have to realize that you are making an investment at that point. Yes through some nerfs and buffs things may shift.

[rofldat]

I have to keep pointing these things out because you seem to be confusing your own opinion with the game’s system.

Let me point that out for you:

I only want Musketeer or Archer C3 as my choices

YOU only want those two choices.
The game does not force that option on you.

Isn’t viable options what it is? Viable?

Well, TO ME, Archer c3 is a viable option.
But according to you, it’s not.

I didn’t mention how the classes you mentioned such as SR C2 is actually R7 class, Falconer is R6

That’s exactly why I pointed them out though? They ARE ‘viable’ according to you, but yet your ‘choices’ not only removed Cannoneer because you did not want it (your choice), it strangely only compare Archer c3 vs Musketeer, and not Archer c3 vs Musketeer vs Falconer vs SR c2.

Did they stop being ‘viable options’ somewhere?