Tree of Savior Forum

KToS General Thread v5.0

General Discussion
#1807

Price is a result of value and inflation, as long as players get more and more silver the price won’t drop, you just move it out of the direct system.

The reason i say it’s important to split value from price is because value is defined by a group of elements that interact with each other, and price is just a reflection of it. Vaivora equipment is expensive because it is rare and it provides way more power than the conventional options, archstones (and fragments) are similar but have the additional of not having direct restrictions.

Think like this. Let’s imagine IMC decides to add a new Art for Chronomancer, that changes Pass back into the -Xs cooldown instead of a % of the current cooldown. The price for that Art is 36k attribute points and a tome, but the value of the Art cannot be measured as it brings back one of the most useful and impactful skills that ever existed. The same would occur if they added a ceiling to pricing, you can limit the amount players can pay directly, but that doesn’t reflect the value of items.

That’s why it is predictable that such kind of change would only result in players moving into a less flexible trading system in which they can use blessed shards/gems or just endgame items to exchange for what they want. In fact, the most natural outcome is to blessed shards to become the new currency for endgame stuff. Sure, it may increase the effectiveness of market as a silver sink (as players will buy and sell more shards) but it just makes the whole process more frustrating, without really solving anything.

Many players (myself included) expect this to do nothing for the game. Bots will just adapt to do CMs and will sell whatever they can get with their mercenary badges. IMC has to deal with bots on the ground level and remove the reason for botting instead of limiting their agency at cost of players (again, reduce the value of items).

3 Likes
#1808

if after limiting the price, then dev make all item cant be traded personally? i mean must through selling at market, then value=price?

#1809

No stop.
Not more limits. We already have to many.

1 Like
#1810

In some distorted way, yes. It could even be possible for other items prices to be dragged down to reflect this but… would be really awkward when compared to the inflation.

A solution to a problem should never be as bad or worse than the problem itself. This combo is just a recipe to make the playerbase flip…

PS - In the case of components and component built items (like arkstones and their fragments) you can still have a scenario in which the full product isn’t sold on market at all because of the limit and value proportion. Which the only way to address is by making the fragments team bound, and that’s even more awkward…

1 Like
#1811

Thanks for giving humour-but-serious reply. Appreciate it!

1 Like
#1812

But it didn’t change anything aside from splitting the costs in multiple installments and adding other costs.
The total amount of archstones and fragments needed is still the same, and crafting them means delaying the crafting of Luciferi since they require garments as well.
In the end, the bottleneck is still the same - those archstones. Sure, you can make some incomplete ones with the materials you have at hand…and then what? You’re still blocked from progressing until you get the remaining fragments or archstones needed and you even spent garments to do it, thus trading an early bonus for a future delay…so what’s the point? You’re still losing out in a way or another.

It’s still RNG with limited tries per week. And nothing to mitigate strings of bad rolls.
I may as well find triple the archthings i’ve got till now from those contents and it would still be zero. And if i keep rolling badly it will keep being zero, and nothing i can do about it. And no, having to buy them isn’t a solution, especially in Fedimian.

1 Like
#1813

IMC is never growing as a company and their development team is never growing in numbers because of their stupid principles and pride. Simply remove all RNG system in the game, then copy Black Desert and Black Desert Mobile system and marketing strategies if IMC wants money and to grow their company or you can copy any other game system and marketing strategy out there that is now successful. Isn’t the game part of an entertainment industry wherein players are the costumers that wants to be entertained and happy?

In short, give the players wants to make them happy and the costumers will pay money regularly to your beloved game IMC and your company will grow, the team development will grow as well as game updates will be faster and the game will grow as well. It’s a WIN-WIN situation. Ever since year 2016 until today, IMC still likes to push their players away from their game because of what KIM/IMC wants for his game. It’s not about the CEO/IMC’s wants. It’s all about making the players happy so that players will throw money at your face(IMC). If KIM/IMC thinks that he will run the game based on what he wants for the game then screw you! you might as well just shutdown the game. Remove RNG system in the game because it’s not an online gambling game. If you won’t remove RNGs in the game, I might as well just play a gambling game online because I can earn real money with it unlike with TOS with a lot of RNGs and Gacha’s RMT is illegal and you won’t earn a dime. Sorry for the rant here.

2 Likes
#1814

i don’t find 3 blessed shard/day (i wont take into consideration 345345 alts because that’s stupid in itself) a “fair amount”.

you need bgs to trascend your gear, leveling your ark and arts (that will have their cap at 30 soon) craft EVERY new stuff that comes out.
there’s no “fair amount” even doing everything daily to be honest.
i’m still trying to save enough bgs to level my ark to 5 and not waste 100m by buying them (this is a joke in itself too) and don’t have enough for arts and another sets for an alt/gtw.
this is beyondstupid.
a new player starting now will NEVER EVER catch up, way to kill the game by themself.

all they had to do was making bgs from merc shop untradable, bam, problem solved, instead they removed them introduced TONS of stuff that needs them and no way to farm them in a " fair amount" to make those stuff.

also, talkign about KTOS “drop rate of archstone fragment” is somewhat useless as its a different server with different amount of people playing.
the only real way to make this ■■■■ show of a P2W soon to be mobile game less RTM friendly would be a market share between servers.

4 Likes
#1815

I didn’t mean to say it was okay. It’s definitely a problem in the game right now and I don’t see any upcoming changes that solve it, just make it worse. All I’m trying to do is say what we can do right now to try to mitigate it. I myself need a lot more than I have right now, and yes, new players have it even harder.

If we have more players, it means more archstone fragments will drop, and more will be on sale. However, there are also more needed. We will have the same drop rate as KR, and ultimately it still is a net increase in the number of archstone fragments being pushed out to the game. There are more needs for archstone fragments in the latest KTOS version and yet they are still cheaper.

It’s a positive change. I never said it was enough of a change, but it’s going to help.

2 Likes
#1816

There should be a expert economists here and I vote for a POLL where we all can agree with the prices
on market. I’m not good in this but to be honest having individual idea’s and keep opposing each other
will not change anything.

I as well as see IMC’s ideas to make (long long term progression) in order for players to stay longer and
kill “boredom” imagine having all gear acquired easily? then what it gets boring again. But I rather vote for new content rather than these *long term gear progression for players to enjoy more about the game. Let’s make this simple clean and easy to understand.

#1817

I agree that gearing should be cleaner/easier to understand, but know for sure that most people do not want the gear treadmill on a 2-3 month cycle like most MMOs. It’s a tough balance for sure. The one thing I think everyone can agree on is that the RNG is just too unforgiving, and adding layers of RNG to prevent having to completely regear every couple months is way more frustrating than it needs to be.

#1818

agree with the merc shop bg termination.they couldve just make it untradeable, reduce the amount even to a very hardcore cheapster like 1 per day still a better treatment.
pretty much like free cm reset weekly.they could reduce the amount to just 1 or 2 per weekend days and everyone will feel less disappointed.
also idk why they push this bg termination to itos so abruptly when we can actually have more important/valuable feature/update even if its just partially instead of bulk update
they can make a better option to leave less disappointment but they just didnt do it.

as for catching up, i disagree.
i got guildies who just join the game, pretty noob i ll say and he already snatching 3 vaivora and 2 archstone from goddess grace. thats some shtty luck i dont have.
so yeah, this game main dish turn out to be instance stuff like high level raid or cm.while hi raid is obviously not for newcomers, you can always be a slave buff/healer /falco to get carried in cm and snatched someone else luck,get rich and buy those bgs or every other sht in market like whale does

1 Like
#1819

Returning after a long time. Waste about 3 ou 4 days playing and finding what is new about the game. Now that i know, quiting again. Man, let me tell you. IMC development team is… i cant even discribe…

Have you ever noticed how good is the music and art team of ToS ? They are amazing! But how about the content creation team? The “rule makers”. They suck. They suck a lot!

just fire everyone and restart this game from scratch. No RNG (or just few), no overlaping/stacking mechanics on gear (farm, identify, re-identify, enhanced, transc, awake, etc, etc), no forsaken classes, no bullshit arts to correct classes or giving back what you take.

Thats going to happen ? Nah
So, bye again

10 Likes
#1820

Same in here, They only think about the dammed money

1- make a good pvp? Make a good war? Make balanced classes?

NO

Let’s create new items lv 400, lv450, lv 500 so they will spend more and more, let’s create some good mechanics as ichors and nuclear powder, so our players can buy some leticias cube to get a bunch of clothes then they will lay beautifully in Orsha while the pvp sucks and the territory war is a crappy.

You did it! Do not worth coming back

3 Likes
#1821

I really don’t get the complaints. This is as far as IMC can go without making everything feel like handouts. RNG has always been part of mmorpg, especially F2P. Stop suggesting stuff that are implemented to B2P and P2P games. They are simply different business models.

And no, this game is far from being Pay2Win. And ironically, Archstones and Vaivoras being RNG but available on medium-difficulty contents prevents it from being “the rich becomes richer.” Just imagine if they make Archstones drop exclusively on Lepi Hard and Lepi/Skia World boss but cut down the RNG by a large margin(like 20% drop rate). Good luck catching up.

Yes, the chances seem absurd but that’s how MMORPG works.

2 Likes
#1822

Your argument would hold up better if people could buy to get around the RNG cause that would be a proper freemium experience.

Vaivoras aren’t ‘the rich get richer.’ Nobody really gets richer from that- not with any consistency. Plenty of people with 200+ CMs have yet to see someone get a drop and people with 1000+ who have not gotten one in their name.

Big lols to the ‘it isn’t the rich get richer’ though. Guess you haven’t seen WBR or World Boss the last 6 months.

2 Likes
#1823

Why would you want IMC to sell freemium experience when they have already done a good job avoiding it?

Okay, that can be said about World Boss, but these are one of the few contents that top players compete with each other. I mean, the drops from these boss aren’t even sold at high price. You can get a Wonderous Leather Recipe for merely 15M. Aside from that, they only get silver for the rank. And WBR? You get costume, figurines, and title, things that does not matter at all for majority of players nor is it essential to progress in any way.

#1824

I guess the rewards that sell for 100M+ each week for some months was my imagination and Moringponia kills for top ranks only gives a few 100k silver my bad. You right /s

EDIT: So we agree they don’t sell freemium bullshit that 100% guarantees enhance for example so why is the RNG aids? If they aren’t gonna monetize it to offer a work around why punish the players? Just to drag out playtime? How is this good design?

1 Like
#1825

They get silver for the rank, yeah - cause people are hoping to get those archstones, since it’s the only source outside of the limited weekly tries.
But the ranking is a dps competition…and on the top there will be the ones who already have got those archstones and made karaliene and arks beforehand. Either due of strokes of luck or because they were already rich enough to have got theirs at the start of the content. So in order to get on par - even if you did moringponia hard for months and have nothing to show for it due to the crafting requirements - you indeed have to make rich people even richer.
But you could say to buy them from shop? Ah ah, no. You may not spend money at the lottery and save it, sure, but the rich people can just shout now and then and offer more than you ever could - with the added caveat of locking other people out while making their own parties stronger. Such a fantastic gameplay design.

Frankly speaking, there is nothing that forced the developers to put the archstones as ingredients of karaliene recipes. They are the ones that decided to put luck in something that could have been purely effort-based, only to make them artificially harder. So yeah, they deserve any and every single complaint about the unreasonable situation they created.
And there is nothing that prevents developers to put archstones/archstones fragments, even team-bound, as rewards from some contents, even for an adequate amount of mercenary badges. At least people would have a way to work on them, instead of having to rely on luck. But we can’t have effort being rewarded, nah.

1 Like
#1826

You can earn 100M each week with just grinding CM, you know? Just an hour of fast CM runs can get you 10M silver even before you sell any loots.

Moring/Skia WB takes more than an hour to kill. And you have to play on specific times. Don’t make it sound like they are pull so far ahead than the rest of the server because they invest a bit more for this content.

I’ll give you a better example of the rich gets richer: previous state of Boruta Seals and Drakonas accessories. At first, only people that can compete in public Boruta can get these. Then they changed it to 1 Boruta per guild. But then only those that can get a territory and achieve at least 5th rank in Boruta speedrun get the bountiful loot.

Now let’s take a look at IMC’s adjustments. They introduced seal fragments plus seals now drop by chance on other weekly contents. People make a joke about how insignificant these additions are, but just look at Tels market price for +3 seal and you can see a whopping 40% price decline.

No matter what system you put these items on, whether it’s RNG, time-gated, or pure grinding numbers, as long as they are tradeable, the rich people will always outbid the majority of the population. It has nothing to do with RNG.

Yes, I agree the rates right now are extremely low. But like Crevox pointed out, they have already made adjustments in future patches to make fragments a bit more common. And again, I would like to reiterate the RNG doesn’t make the rich get richer in any way. It actually gives the majority a sliver chance to luck out(which actually encourage players with low funds to play more).

It’s funny that top players and rich people were actually monopolizing Drakonas Pasi and Pasi recipes at one point but no one ever spoke up about it.