The only thing about the whole spirit as a clone thing, like Shinobi, It is that I think would really do more against the class concept than just simplifying the use. I think it is a common sense that we have only one spirit, so more than 1 spirit out of you would be weird haha
Also there is this common sense that, when you are in an astral projection (for the people who read about this), that you normally does not control your body. Your mind “goes with your spirit” and you control it, not your body. That’s why people normally knows about this experience when people are asleep, for example.
So it would be weird to have this concept implemented. It is cool, but looks a little off than some straight forward psychic-themed skills (it is more spiritual, but whatever, they need to give an usage to the psychokinesis property).
Edit: also, Sadhu is more than just astral projection. Get some ideas of the different types of Siddhis and play around with that
Edit2: wait. I think they said they want to tackle the Psychokinesis attribute as well. Imagine if they choose to remove it from the game. Maybe will open their minds to other possibilities haha
i have just add a sentence to my previous post " i’m all for it, not that imc is gonna go with it, i’m just using it as example.".
i know all it’s problem, but i was using more as example: making it a carbon copy shinobi, after all shinobi right now is not on the top but is not bad too.
my main point was really go straight, using clone-spirit thing was because what is more straight than copying a already viable design and add only some twist on it? making it spirit etc with different skills.
we really need to take those classes and go simple thinking on them now, to make them playable at least.
I said that because if you ask anyone that played ToS what Sadhu is they will likely say “is the spirit/OoB class” because it’s so damm remarkable. I’m all in for redesigning classes if that is done in favor of giving them something that is more then what they had, and people can argue that dumbing down Sadhu does this, but making it a simple DPS class like all others is too much of a loss.
Absolutely, no class should be ever unplayable, but i’d rather have all classes to be super exciting than completely efficient but too similar to each other, just like it’s the case with Arbalester and Mergen, two classes with skills that have almost direct counterparts on each other, but on a different flavor. I understand that the average player just wants the class they like to perform well and be playable and they don’t really care about uniqueness or diversity as long as they can be successful, but that is exactly where the danger lies.
They tried it once, with the game release. Every change after that was just some minor rework that tried to change the least possible while giving classes some extra tools. The only rework i recall that “dared” to do it was Paladin and even then it was just half baked, to the point it was completely outclassed, as the defensive cleric, when re:build kicked in (which is also when the “cool unique” skills started being removed).
These classes didn’t failed only because of their set, they failed because they had uniqueness but little value. Alchemist and Squire are unique but they don’t bring up enough value to the combat (as the core gameplay element), meanwhile most of the other classes have high value and little uniqueness, which is better to play with. Not to mention some basic issues that could be foreseen miles away such as giving Templar an unique mount that isn’t compatible with any class in the tree. A total flop never happens due a single factor.
That’s the same as adding a paid DLC to complete an unfinished game, and also why people dislike vaivora so much (not as bad through Arts, but still bad). It’s even more troublesome when you have to consider how many different equipment pieces and sets you need to add to give the game true diversity.
My main concern with this mentality is that it can allow IMC to do it and just leave it as it is, to never be changed ever again, just like happened with re:build. Once IMC allows itself to make classes simple, straight forward and generic, they can use that bottom line as the standard for every single class they do next - “Well, players are fine with the last class, just keep doing the same”.
Considering how they are supporting this insta kill meta, we will be stuck into an arms race rotation cycle of OP classes/build based on patch release, with a bunch of players angry because their character isn’t as good anymore while they wait for their turn in the rotation or just roll the current top tier for as long as it lasts (yes, there will be outliers like you).
There is no point of having multiple options to pick from if we don’t have enough diversity, and it’s the same reason why food courts have few or none restaurants from the same cuisine. We need all classes to be both unique AND playable, just one isn’t enough.
To be fair, IMC has no problems screwing with class identity if they need to. For example, Kabbalist was once a class using various number calculations for their buffs, but nowadays its just an Ein Sof healing class with the number skills being simply one skill in a two-step debuff to get the number 3 since not every monster has good numbers on their name. That’s just one instance of IMC changing the design to make it better and easier to use, its simple, but effective.
If IMC actually can make the current Sadhu design work, I would think that no one would be complaining much about it. Out-of-Body has always been the class’s make-or-break factor in driving people away however decent the class’s damage is, and according to a certain cursed Sadhu Rework, IMC understands this as well, though I don’t understand why in order to make Out-of-Body more accessible, they decided to make it harder to use. They screwed with Out-of-Body for so long and still haven’t found a satisfactory result at all, especially the new Art Attribute forcing players to stay still for 40 seconds and the buff disappears if you get out of Out-of-Body in a game design that really punishes staying still that long. It just seems that IMC just can’t make the current Sadhu design work, thus the frustration that players want IMC to rework Sadhu from the ground up over keeping its special identity when its that identity that is screwing the class over to begin with.
With that said, it would suck if Sadhu wasn’t unique anymore, I just feel that the current uniqueness that Sadhu has now isn’t working, and that IMC should create a different uniqueness for Sadhu instead of pushing a class design they clearly cant make work. Its outstanding how the class is still not reworked properly after so long despite the amount of attention IMC has given to it over the years compared to other ignored classes. The Sadhu bug allowing players to move around with their spirit has been around for so long, and they could’ve made it into a function as shown when they made Shinobi’s Vaivora Dagger. They can also make clones that duplicate skills, as shown with Sage’s new Art. Reasonable and workable possibilities are there, but Sadhu is still in its current state.
On a side note, I just want my Stand Class, IMC please make it a stand and give it a physical stat attribute.
It’s safe to say that Out of Body concept just doesn’t fit how this game is played. Unless they introduce a way to protect yourself while using the skill or make a full Sadhu combo executable in less than 3sec(which beats the purpose of OoB).
It would be nice, but IMC seems to not want to give invulnerability effect to other classes than the ones from Scout. And even that, i’ve seen that recent arts (or vaivora weapons? I’m a little late from the very latest news) are removing these effects.
Despite that, as @4lkruzeth said, the play style of OoB does not fit the direction taken for the combat of the game anymore. A 5s iframe might not change this feeling… it would more or less turn the skill in panic button I guess.
I said it before: there was a time where you could combine the use of OoB and Prakriti easily to have certain mobility with the mechanic, in a year where the speed/mobility were not that big of a necessity. That was a time where Sadhu was terrible dps-wise (and Prana had a bug with the old stats transfer mechanic that you could have your buff AND the buff that you were supposed to give to another player). This was taken away either by changes on these skills and gameplay decisions such as buffs for using/attacking with spirit form for an extended time, and it is funny to look back at this now that this old flexibility could be good for the class in the actual game’s combat concept.
While the old Out-of-Body may be similar, the current Out-of-Body does differ greatly from such stances like Bazooka or Kneeling Shot (I assume you mean Kneeling Shot). For example,
Out-of-Body received a 15 second cooldown so if you’re forced to get out of it prematurely, you have to wait another 15 seconds before using Out-of-Body and any Out-of-Body skills. Bazooka and Kneeling Shot has none of that.
Out-of-Body is also an important DPS skill as well in your DPS rotation that requires 15 points to max and has a DPS interaction with Possession, while Bazooka and Kneeling Shot are 1-pointer stances that only gives various damage benefits.
Bazooka and Kneeling Shot gives important buffs without any crazy caveats for use so there’s not much downsides in switching in and out of such stances. Meanwhile, Out-of-Body, along with its 15 second cooldown, gives half-decent defensive buffs and a damage buff (new Sadhu Art) that requires a condition of staying in Out-of-Body for 40 seconds to actually begin to take full effect, not practical nor is it worth the risk.
Stances like Bazooka and Kneeling Shot usually can be turned on and off via tapping the skill itself, while Out-of-Body is also a damage skill by itself that has 2 skills to get out of that state, one also being a positional skill at that.
Out-of-Body is known to bug players out when you summon spirit in a bad place, into essentially locking oneself in the state even though the player isn’t, and while the player can move, the player is also crippled with being unable to jump nor use Out-of-Body and Out-of-Body skills until he relogs or so. Bazooka and Kneeling Shot doesn’t have that.
Classes with such limiting stances are usually long-ranged characters while Sadhu skills are rather short-ranged, so Sadhus will have to use Out-of-Body at almost point-blank on bosses.
It is a fine concept on paper being a turret of sorts, its just badly done for Sadhu in a game design that punishes staying still for long and yet IMC doubles down on Out-of-Body’s failing concept. On a side note, at least Bazooka has a new Art to move while in the stance to somewhat deal with such situations.
I was watching this old video of mine and, before the last “rework” of Sadhu, the best use of OoB on moderate content was as a pre-skill for ABE. Even on average risk content (back then), you can’t just sit there with OoB, even if you had a healer with you. I don’t think the actual OoB is better than this, besides an extra damage when using it, at the cost of having another skill if I want to leave the stance. Before, OoB was a “toggle” and Prakriti was nice for heal + repositioning.
The best thing Sadhu had, watching it now, was crowd control
Knockdown with ABE
Stun chance with Vashitta
Root with Possession (altough I remember it was not that satisfying due the channeling aspect combined with low SFR and slow hit rate, hence why I was not using it a lot, only if I needed some sort of control)
And Vashitta and Possession worked on these minor bosses (CM bosses per say, not like the Raid ones). And combining the old minimum critical chance from Prana with Druid kit gave me a good ammount of crits IMO, and my equipment was crap, not a lot of crit rate.
Sure, you could use a standing position, and it worked against frail enemies from the first stages of CM - I did it with the boss as well -, but doesn’t feel rewarding at all, it is not like I felt I was doing better than not using it.
At that time OoB was giving defense and a 10x stack damage boost for ABE every time you auto attacked with spirit. I remember trying pushing for OoB there for testing purposes.
(crap FPS and crap equipment cause I was away from the game, just used what I had back then)
Don’t know where else to put this so I’m going to put it here.
Here is the scaling for the stat bonuses on assisters by grade and rank:
So, for example, a rank 1 Legend assister has a slightly stronger stat bonus than a rank 3 Normal assister. The only bonus stronger than a rank 2 Legend assister is a rank 3 Unique assister, etc.
I don’t know how IMC plan to rework Sadhu, but the class is in a good position right now with the right builds/combinations. I was be able to land Rank 5 skiaclipse field boss multiple times. Even with 40+ players on the map.
Although i must say Exo+Miko+crus combo is must stronger for bossing. Field farming is really nice with Sadhu’s Burst damage and knockback effect. (May required Centaurus card for extra AoE ATK).
Knockback immunity and reposition with Prak is really nice. Extra heal along the way. The only problem is that Sadhu can easily hit damage cap with crit’d damage. Possession, Astral, OOB, and Vashita. These skills are extremely strong. Burst potential at the highest level. Quite good!
Just joking, but memes aside, Sadhu’s main issue for being so unpopular has always been Out-of-Body’s mechanics when there are better options without all the hassle.
Sadhu does respectable damage and can benefit from all the damage buffs that Magic Cleric DPS classes give to make it decent (lovely Gregorate and Chants), but there are classes that gives better overall damage without all the hassle. Exorcist-Crusader-Sadhu does well solo, but in a party with Dievdirby cooldown reduction support and Crusader Vaivora, too many skills go off cooldown too fast to make use of them efficiently (especially since 2 skills are channeling).
Sadhus never stay in Out-of-Body for long, makes me wonder what was IMC thinking when they made that new Sadhu Art.
Reminder that rework doesn’t necessarily mean changing everything about the class.
IMC also said that they’re going to rework Miko and what they did was simply increasing the skill factors greatly and change their support skills into something all classes can benefit from.
I wish they would change everything about Sadhu at this point, tbh.
It plays too similar to Shinobi for me, but without all the fluff Shinobi has (special effects now, higher damage when used, serotonin number hell).
You basically use OOB->ABE->Prak (or OOB->ABE->Lv1 Possession->OOB->Prak but I feel like cleric has more important things to do than use oob twice) every 15 seconds, much like how Shinobi’s burst goes. Sprinkle Vashida with Aqua.
Imo it’s really strong for what it is, but magic cleric has like 300 other things that work just as well and don’t lock you to a location nearly as long (which is dangerous), and most offer the bare minimum of what Sadhu does (dmg%) and then something else that’s more specialized or usually works waaaaay better for meta or the team.
