Tree of Savior Forum

KToS General Thread v4.0

General Discussion
#931

I had to reawaken from my slumber just for your comment…
Let me be the first to say… No!

First of all Swordsmen don’t have an advantage in managing their HP. Technically clerics still have that advantage over every other class by far. Swordsman’s HP was mainly designed in consideration of them having to face tank 90% of the time they want to deal damage.They don’t have a Safety Zone or healing type of skills, nor do they have any form of invincibility unless you count Reitarius’ “Vital Protection:Near Escape” attribute, and even then you’re on the edge of dying. Unaided by anyone else, Swordsmen use HP potions and have higher hp pools, that’s all they get.

Second, almost every swordsman has to consider block penetration and/or accuracy since they are physical damage dealers. Most Clerics won’t have to worry about that… ever.

Then we have to look at how magic circles work. The beauty of magic circles is that in most cases you can set it and forget it most of the time. Not much face tanking required when it comes to magic circles. Literally every cleric build will have some sort of magic circle skill in their kit. To combat how easy magic circles are, the Devs thought of adding a magic circle breaking mechanic to certain bosses, a “band-aid” type of deal imo.

You mentioned Lancers… Have you seen what lancers have to work with in their kit!? They don’t wear shields, they have no real defensive capabilities. Their skill hitbox ranges are small, the ones that aren’t small do small damage. They are pretty much designed to deal big burst damage every 20 seconds or so with everything else at the cusp of being borderline useless 70% of the time, when compared to what most Clerics have in their arsenal.

Swordsmen and Archers for the most part don’t have any skills that scale on SPR. Clerics have quite a few.

So do we really want to give the face tanking, low defense, short ranged, burst damage every 20 seconds, no support skill class more burdens in the form of higher SP? I don’t think so.
Where are you even getting these SP cost amounts anyway? Wouldn’t the Acrobatic Mount buff from Cataphract + the cost of using Crush + the cost of using Quintain be more than 205SP? and that’s not even level 15 yet.

All this to say… you can’t suggest what the SP cost of a skill should be based on what you just mentioned. There are other factors to consider. The Devs are still struggling to find a good balance in all this.

11 Likes
#932

I mean, its a poor comparison anyways because Swordsmen and Archers generally have many skills they can spam or alternate between while Clerics generally have less skills and longer cooldowns.

I think most classes should have to invest in some Spirit/SP in some way, like via level attributes or gear, but some Swordsmen and Archer class SP costs are crazy high regardless of investment.

Also I doubt the sp changes will be that drastic anyways.

1 Like
#933

lol just play Hacka or use rush with acrobatic mount … its ridiculous.
Beside that sword/archers have to invest in str/con/dex and why should a physical skill use more sp then magic?

3 Likes
#934

I play exo too but skill overpower and sword is a lot skill to user

#935

basically, the guy wants swordmen/archers to invest in every stats but INT.
while full CON wizards/clerics can still hit everything like a truck and don’t miss or get blocked.

hmm, okay.

4 Likes
#936

Shinobi clone SP drain.
Even without it, my “spammable skills” cost at least 80 SP, and don’t deal much damage.
My Alchemist outdamages me while being pure SPR vs STR…

#937

Lets be honest here:

  • Spells cant crit.

  • Evasion is pretty much a non factor in this game, but I can agree with you on block.

  • Most builds, even Swordsmen and Archers, just throw most to all of their points into one stat depending on the build, maybe some Con if you are doing certain content sure, but this applies to nearly everyone.

  • Full Con Wizards/Clerics, is that really a thing anymore unless you’re some full support build?

This is most likely why SP costs are being changed for several classes, because the costs are probably too high at max levels for certain skills, and then you have already too high costs for some class skills like Hackapels… almost everything or Cataphracts Rush. I hope they find a happy balance between what a skill does and its sp cost, some skills make no sense to me.

1 Like
#938

Looks like someone here doesn’t play shinobi/fencer/doppel or hackapelle.

Hell, even BM eats a lot of SP with attributes.

I’m happy with the SP changes.

#939

Even full supports are starting to move away from Full CON builds. While it’s still an option it’s not great anymore.

For Clerics CON is still fine, but high SPR/INT healing is more powerful. Linkers gets Spirit Shock damage, Thaumaturges scales on INT/SPR.

I honestly think that there are more benefits (at least PvE) to con High CON (not Full) and other stats rather than spending all points into CON.

For PvP… that’s whole another story I’m not familiar with anymore. >_<

#940

Idk why we have stats and stat points if IMC keep making things more streamlined.

#941

kabba 3 full con works better with a linker3 full spr, they both complete each other, if you want to be an usefull kabba3 buy good CON+SPR gear.

not going full con on a main pve healer is dumb.

1 Like
#942

yea, why build hybrid when lifeline can give a party max stats.

#943

I don’t say I want them to invest in every stat.

My problem with this is that while Cleric has only a 36% higher base SP pool, its skills cost way more SP.

Btw, the DEX argument for PVE is complete nonsense. Did you ever look at the block rates of any monsters that actually do matter? You need not a single point of DEX against them to penetrate their block, especially given the new lvl 360 unique accessory giving you the block penetration you need to penetrate the block of the few snowflake monsters that have block.

The accuracy argument is also not an argument. Physical Classes get accuracy handed to them for free on top of physical attack when pumping STR. All you need is 166 STR at lvl 360 to hit all monsters in the game 100% of the time[the vast majority requires 150 STR or less;
base accuracy at max lvl is 90+, guess what? 3564 of 4623 monsters, i.e. 77% of all monsters don’t require you to have any STR to hit them 100% of the time, another 18% require you to have 90 STR worth of accuracy to hit them(including the Demon Lords and Velcoffer) 100% of the time;
This means that 95% of all monsters require 90 STR or less for 100% accuracy].

It’s basically the same as DEX where you get block penetration on top of attack speed and evasion and critical attack. You need 172 DEX at 360 to penetrate the block of all monsters 100% of the time. The vast majority of monsters requires 33 points of DEX or less for 100% block penetration
(only 172 monsters have block, while 4451 monsters have 0 block rate, including ALL LEGIT BOSS MONSTERS like Velcoffer, Demon Lord Zaura, Kugheri Balzermancer, etc.;
good reason to invest into block penetration if only 3,7% of all monsters can block your attacks,huh?)

You make it sound like you lose something by investing in any of these stats.
You do not. In fact, it’s the opposite. There are reasons aside accuracy and block penetration that make you get these stats and you get the block penetration and accuracy as a free bonus.

Investing into these stats is more beneficial than investing into SPR or INT. All these stats do is boost some skill effects, add some Healing power, INT adds some magic attack and SPR some SP/SP recovery rate/SP potion recovery.
The status resistance doesn’t even matter anymore as most monsters won’t debuff you.

Given the new random stat equipment can give you that amount of STR/DEX on the weapon and/or 1-2 armor parts, I don’t see any reason why anyone would bring this up unless he didn’t do the research beforehand how much STR/DEX is actually required…

This means both Archer and Swordsman could go full SPR or full CON without being crippled in combat, arguments debunked.

Now here’s the thing: If Archer and Swordsman already have a high base SP pool, already low SP costs on skills and basically no requirement to get base DEX and base STR, don’t you think it’s a little unfair if you lower their SP costs?

I don’t want to force Swordsmen or Archers to invest heavily into SPR, all I want is to keep the requirement to have some SPR (200-300 SPR is easy to achieve with random stat gear) for those Classes so they don’t drift away even farther from the stat concept, as SPR and CON are the stats all Classes are supposed to have.

The upcoming change will probably try to change this aspect of the game (as the previous changes on recovery skills and Ein Sof already lowered the CON requirement for them to be effective), which is a sad way to make the game more convenient for people who don’t spread their stats.

2 Likes
#944

I’vet yet to even need SP potions as a Cleric/Wizard, while as an Archer/Swordsman I have to bathe in them.
Mozambique has 5OH, Skill level 5 it’s a default 160 SP, Ricochet increases cost by 50%,
Ignore Defense increases by 30%… good luck using that constantly.
Archer and Swordie need to invest in too many stats as it is, sure, Physical Clerics do too, but they already start out with an amazing kit that can still be used in the end.

I also remember someone posting a video of a Cataphract using Rush and running out of SP with only that, but that was a while ago.

We also don’t have any Classes that benefit from SPR, unlike Cleric and Wizard.

#945
  • what would you choose between : can’t crit but hit everytime / can crit but gets blocked/dodged?
    i know my answer.
  • certain content, yes, because those are the only endgame contents we have.
  • sadly, full CON wizards/clerics is still a thing. have you ever done TBL or GVG before?

let’s be really honest here

when you want to balance things, you need to consider both PVE/PVP in mind.
just because you don’t care doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

oh, and

i would invest in CON if not for block pen and accuracy, so yeah, i lose something.
@streamside

3 Likes
#946

If you’re running multiple velco run in a week just take any druid healer. With cleric update, party don’t need to restrict kabba3 and linker3 to be successful. If you gonna tryhard for fast clearing with fix party then it’s fine. For shout party casual run don’t even need full con.

1 Like
#948

they said that in wow and they lost 10million subs because of it, they said it in diablo and nobody played the game.
yeah, right. No thanks, let’s have a balanced PvP.

1 Like
#949

They will never balance pvp, but they can ruin pve trying.

2 Likes
#950

One thing that I always thought is that physical skills should consume physical resources…like stamina. You know, like in dark souls.

That would create an interesting environment for swordies at least, because they would have CON as a defensive stat and also a resource one, kinda fixing both the problems.

I would say that the stamina consuming and regeneration would need an overhaul.

And of course, ban on the red oax, for obvious reasons.

3 Likes
#951

Mate just want to remind that while minimum dex for block pen in general pve is “unnecesasary”, dont forget some skills are casted faster with more dex being based on your attack speed

2 Likes