KToS General Thread v4.0


#6674

what changed in serpentine ? will return the debuff to buff melee attacks ?


#6675

the Serpentine text says that it will crit on movement impaired enemies but it doesn’t so they “fixed” that


#6676

?? this works, on targets affected by deathrone’s slow it always causes critical, but it does not matter, serpentine is a very weak skill with a very long animation, spend time using it makes you lose DPS


#6677

The reason I still play wizards is because they look flashy. Also, is wizard the only class whereby you can use the same weapon regardless of what wizard class you choose? Compared to warriors who have like so many different weapons depending on what build you are.

How strong are the other DPS classes now compared to wizards? Do wizards at least have somewhat better AOE of crowd control of some sort? It feels like in Re:Build now the one very dominating wizard path is Pyromancer - Elementalist - Taoist. I understand that all the changes are trying to increase the variety of feasible choices for end game builds but if other classes like warrior/archer are miles ahead of wizard then I don’t see a point in much variation and diversity in wizard class when warrior/archer is a superior option.

Then again I only played wizards since the start of TOS so I’ve not much clue on how good other classes are.


#6678

Y’know, at least Dragoon deals decent DPS even with its absurd cursed helmet SP drain (Monk pre-Re:Build go through much worse with Double Punch spam).

Then you have Monk, a DPS class with Energy Blast that does worse Damage-Per-Second than Auto-Attacking, coupled with the worst knockback/knockdown CC in the game in-built with your main DPS kit to make both you and your party members scream from skills not landing due to those CC …

Then again, there’s no such thing as different degrees of dead. Dead classes are all dead classes.

:tired:


#6679

Onmy-WL was exactly that, and they nerfed it for no good reason. It wasn’t game breaking nor threatening other build paths.

Before Re:Build i had a Pyro-Kino-WL and it worked because the mechanics of their skills were nice to each other:
-MF pulled stuff for low radius Mastema and PoA
-10s duration disables in Fire Pillar and Raise giving time to setup perfet range Demon Scratch (Sleep as well, RIP)
-Swap is the only skill in the game that can force a CC-immune enemies out of PoA so they get the long lasting debuff
-Usual pyro-kino stuff (Fireworks, Gravity+Flame Ground, Swap Fireball for mobility…).

I changed my build to WL-Onmy-Chrono because Re: nerfed a lot of that mechanical synergy one way or another and was kinda forcing another path for Pyromancer.
Slow and Tree are the next best things to help Scratch sweetspot, Tiger inflicted Fear so there was no need to use WL’s MP heavy attribute to boost DT/Trail (RIP synergy, RIP Trail), Mastema increased YinYan dmg by 50% as it is split dark/holy (now only 25%) while YinYan increases WL dmg by 20% (and 10% itself with Pass, which is good since the build has a couple high CD skills), and other stuff.

Those nerfs will get the build overshadowed by FF new high self-synergy with corruption plus bigger dark dmg bonus. And that is the only thing IMC is doing, forcing more dmg synergy everywhere, while none of the “dark themed” classes have kits that work well with each other mechanically for fun and fluid gameplay.


#6680

No video of the new classes yet? Isn’t on Ktest yet?


#6681

Best synergy is no forced synergy at all. Almost all attempts of forcing it resulted in being removed or not useful at all.

Nope. That announcement was a dev blog post.


#6682

And what would be an unforced synergy?


#6683

Falconer Wugu is unforced, it’s not a specific mechanic, it’s just skills working as they were designed and interacting well together.


#6684

@Satoru just described some with his Pyro-Kino-WL. Functions that are native for each skill, that you can combine to create more organic combos. Put those examples alongside Ice Wall being natively designed to throw shards upon being hit, and then you see combos with PP, Hell Breath, Gravity Pole, attacks from other classes too. Here you have good examples of not forced synergies.

Now, I’m not saying that they can’t create some (fireball + pp / Storm Dust looks like a ‘hard coded’ one for me), but almost all of the forced ones are not useful at all. Hamaya + Entity, R7F + Omikuji, Lachrymator + Mijin no Jutsu, Divine Stigma + Energy Blast, anything they did so far for Sadhu’s spirit, Vashita Siddhi + Aqua Benedicta, the one for Cannoneer, I think it is with Wugushi, just to name a few. Right now we can already see that the Sage + Slow synergy does not worth the run (this particular one looks like unnecessary, creating a DPS synergy for a class that they just decided to change it to be support-oriented, not a DPS anymore).

If we look to the past of the game we have Wiz3 Ele3 Warlock3 - zero forced synergies that the best thing this build had was that all skills were ‘cast and let it deal damage’, abusing (in a good way) the way those skills work, with Wiz3 supporting the DPS combination.

If we look today, we have Priest - Oracle - PD, an amazing support combination that also does not work because they have a forced synergy, but because each class contribute to the build and each skill do what it is created for, doesn’t need other skill to be effective.

For me, classes like Cannoneer, Falconer, Sapper, Barbarian, Peltasta, Matador, Taoist, Pyromancer, Cryomancer, Inquisitor, Plague Doctor, Priest, Exorcist, they all stand out because their skills are not forced to depend on another class or something else to do what they are supposed to do - or, for the support classes, to being useful at it. They can fit in a lot of different builds.

It is different from classes like Sadhu, Monk, Miko, Hackapell, Shadowmancer, Sage, Chronomancer, that are constantly being forced upon hard coded synergies to exist, instead of fixing their existence on what they should do, what makes them unique.

That being done, then you can monitor and fix exaggerations, like what’s being done with Ice Wall. I mean, we just saw two balances in a row for Wizards that almost show that devs are struggling to find what to do with the same classes over and over, instead of looking at them and make them individually useful, not making them forced to be combined.

EDIT: we are about to see a forced synergy between ‘Sadhu -> Chaplain <- Monk’. I don’t want to doom it before the announcement, but I am setting myself to not being amused honestly. Quite frankly, the way it was hinted, doesn’t look promising at all.


#6685

Natural synergy is achieved either with complementary or reinforcing interactions, those are often seen as oppositions but sometimes we can get a dissonance. The cookie cutter example of it is Musketeer and Falconer as they take magnitude (the ability to hit multiple targets) in opposition, the few multi target skills in the first class don’t make use of AAR and as such it doesn’t make full use of Falconer despite one covering the other’s flaw. It doesn’t result in dissonance but also doesn’t generate true synergy.

Back in the old rank system there was a special wizard build that made use of class strengths in an unusual way, it wasn’t one of the best but was fairly effective for one that lacked a mid tier class being Pyromancer-Cryomancer-Enchanter.

Pyromancer was always a dedicated damage over time class and had as a weakness the setup and enemy positioning, Fire Pillar does solve this to some degree but no other skill can lock down enemies. Cryomancer is the kinda of class that is often taken into support builds or summoners as it can halt enemies easily but lacks raw power to contribute a fight. Enchanter as the last was a gimmick cluster with some rule bending skills but didn’t worked out as much of a core class for the late rank placement.

The magic here is how each of them amplifies the other’s power. Pyromancer has huge magnitude and is a slow damage dealer it can make use of Cryomancer’s corresponding control power to ensure consistent damage, it even allows larger setups to be finished by alternating their skills. Enchanter on its own was a weak class but as a support one it transfers its power to the others, considering how Enchant Lightning operates in property damage it is better used on multi hit skills and multiple line attacks, this is provided by Pyromancer which is again ensured by Cryomancer’s freezing abilities, in addition this same property had elemental bonus. Even on the lower specs Lightning Hands enabled multiple enemies to be hit and the extra damage from Enchant Lightning is enhanced by Enchant Fire, the same logic applied to Enchant Earth and Subzero Shield as it allowed staff to be used as weapon of choice for extra damage with still some defensive capability. As a last, and in this case special interaction, Lightning Hands could be used with Ice Wall for some burst potential and even if it didn’t worked the C staff attack could be used as a last resort.

All three classes were used on their own in different ways and builds and it worked well for that, but this latent potential was always there to be explored as they shared converging points towards a single gameplay. These small characteristics on each class and skills are what give them true synergy power, it doesn’t take a special exception or line of code to make it work. Players can figure out clever and unusual ways to combine classes if the classes themselves have a solid direction and this is what we really need to have build diversity, all by pure game mechanics available to all.

It can be argued that the forced synergy is just a way to promote other classes that don’t have the same value combined but when it’s overused it only adds unneeded complexity and more text to read, not to mention it will direct players to take it instead of thinking their way out of it.

tl:dr - We need less special interactions and more solid class identity, players will figure out how to use classes later if things work on their own.


#6686

Unforced synergy is Inquisitor class in general, especially Breaking Wheel and Judgement, that naturally works with other skills due to how the skills’ innate mechanics work (strike / demon / physical skills interaction). The skills do not have any synergy or interaction that’s specific to a single class’s skill but simply work well together due to their similar attributes, and options are free for picking, thus no forcing to take certain classes to make skills viable.

Forced synergy is Energy Blast having such crap DPS because IMC decided that Energy Blast has to rely on Krivis’ Divine Stigma for no reason at all really other than IMC putting the interaction for the damage to be even barely viable, and nerfed Energy Blast’s damage in the name of balance due to that forced synergy. In practice, that balancing results in either one of such skills or both being unless both are used together, thus forcing classes to be used together to be viable. With that said, there is no synergy with both such classes at all other than that one synergy that IMC placed (Monk is physical, Krivis is magic, no common synergy at all other than that one interaction), thus forcing players to take unlikely classes together aka forced synergy.


#6687

I feel for wizards there are 2 kinds of “Forced Synergy”

Specific Skill Synergy: This is when specific skills interact with another skill to create a special combo. For wizards, there are many examples just to name a few

  • Fireball + Storm Dust/Psychic Pressure
  • Ice Wall + Psychic Pressure
  • Flame Ground + Meteor
  • Heavy Gravity + Flame Ground/Toyou
  • Fire Fox Shikigami + Gravity Pole
  • Storm Calling + Electrocute
  • Masterma + Rune of Justice
  • Hexing/Bone Pointing/Kurdaitcha + Effigy

These synergy looks cool but it forces 2 classes to go together just for a specific skill synergy. Another type of synergy is the “Complement Skill Synergy” whereby 2 skills are no necessary to make it work for a specific, but they help each other become stronger. This is mainly due to debuffs

  • Fire/Ice/Lightning + Tri Disaster Charm
  • Quick Cast + Long Casting Skills
  • Future Featherfoot Dark Attack boost to all Dark damage
  • Sage’s damage boost to slowed enemies.

The thing is, I feel that the first kind of synergy although is good, it forces to classes to go together. The second synergy however feels better in a sense that you can have a wider variety. For instance, the recent dark changes let us choose 3 out of the 4 main dark classes mainly Warlock, Shadowmancer, Bokor and Featherfoot. Depending on whether you want more debuffs, AOE or single target you can choose whichever you want. Some can even take in Necromancer (Sorcerer is sadly forgotten). This synergy that focuses on debuffs also help out the party in general better than specific skill synergies.

Of course making a class strong by itself with not much synergy increases variety because you are note fixated into choosing a specific class with a specific synergy. However, I’m afraid that without these synergy to try out new interactions or complements with other classes, we will just end up with 3 strong DPS or 2 DPS + Chronomancer. This was the problem that pre Re:Build has that everyone just go with Elementalist + Warlock both having high DPS but no synergy.

I personally like those “Specific Skill Synergies” because it just seem cool to combine 2 spells to create this special effect. It is also why I play wizards because the skills are nice and flashy.


#6688

I’m all for this “forced synergy” (only) in the wiz class. With magic being able to miss and crit, there is next to no distinction between magical and physical damage anymore. These forced interactions between spells changes that. Spell crafting makes being a wiz distinct from physical damage dealers.

Bring them on. There needs to be more “spell recipes”.


#6689

To be honest, this Forced Synergy thing seems to only majorly affect Wizards (and Scouts to some extent).

Every other Class Tree usually ignores such Forced Synergies when making builds as they do not impact playstyle much, if at all, and make builds ignoring such Forced Synergies. Its also usually because other than those Synergies, the classes do not have anything else to work together with.

Wizards on the other hand base their builds and meta on such Forced Synergies as the Forced Synergies on Wizard classes are strong. Wizard classes are naturally rife with synergies outside Forced synergies with corresponding elements and attributes to match classes with, so classes with Forced synergies usually have some other Unforced Synergies

Then again, with Taoist being so prominent in almost every Wizard class build, it may just be that Taoist is that strong that it carries almost all Wizard builds, and that such Forced Synergies are just icing on the thicc damage Taoist cake. :thinking:


#6690

I will insist in the recent Sage + Slow (Chrono) forced synergy.

Why a damage combo with classes that you want them to be picked by their support aspect?

If you want to make sage viable as a support option, then make the support the class provide more desirable. I don’t know, maybe the space theme to actually distort stuff:

Micro Dimension attribute for duplication native and duplicating magic circles too, not only installments (and talismans also, why not)

Ultimate Dimension enlarging attribute also native but significantly enlarging magic circles

Dimension Compression to actually hold enemies in place for some seconds

Things like that would be more significant for a support mage class, to better fit with other classes. With that, nobody will care much for the damage these skills do. I mean, look at PD, that has a good support now and people accept the damage it does as complimentary.

Make a support class to support other classes… Not a support class to support damage of another support class.


#6691

This! I feel the changes for Sage into a “Support Class” just make it even worse than before. There isn’t a point in having Sage do more damage so slowed enemies as a support class. They need to make duplicate and enhance magic circle worth the SP consumption. For instance, the enlarge attribute on Fire Pillar just isn’t enough to justify the extra SP consumption.

Also, since Sage is suppose to fit into this theme of “Dimension” and “Blackhole”, it would be nice for Sage to have a strong suction skill something like the OG Frost Pillar (but doesnt freeze) for it to be a strong support class. Other forms of support can come in form of better buffs like making Missile Hole last for a longer duration.


#6692

IMO forced sinergys or not are not the problem now, the bigest mistake was Focus all the entire wizz class on AoE multi hits spells like the old first wizz build, when the damage of all the class was just 2 skills frost cloud and ice wall
Now it’s barely the same with Tao paper full combo instead frost cloud but with all the damage nerfed due the Poor damage este of both skills

All wizard builds was nerfed to the time when they was just a class to farm Maven


#6693

I agree with those changes… but, Dimension compresion now stuns enemies (post support changes)

Also… again, what counts as “Hold” debuff?? the Combo will be not only with slow but also “hold”'d enemies.