KToS General Thread v4.0

[frustratedsquirrel2]

This is why you have to practice actually dropping the heal tiles underneath players who need it. If the tank is losing HP, you don’t walk into a corner and expect them to move over to get the heal tiles. You drop a safety zone under them, step back a bit, then cast heal right on top of them.

Some clerics will spam heal whenever it’s off cooldown thinking that people will just move to the tiles if they need healing too, which IMO is a huge mistake. It’s a lot more effective to conserve the overheats, and when someone is damaged or about to take damage, you move up to them and cast the heal in their general direction. More often than not, this is when they notice your casting animation and actually move back into the heal with little DPS or positioning loss.

[zordagoth]

I feel like the idea of keeping Heal Tiles is interesting, but maybe not in Cleric.

It could be on another class, because there’s really unique and interesting stuff about Heal Tiles, but i feel like the fact that every cleric has them makes it hard to balance

EDIT : Another class on the Cleric Tree tho, not another tree

[kurokawamayumi]

it is difficult to avoid heal tile dropping on wrong player when everyone are just stacking close to each other and running around to avoid AOE.

I would always pick a direct heal over heal tile, it make life as a healer so much easier

[frustratedsquirrel2]

That’s why you healbomb players up close if they’re grouped. If you hit more than one player overlapping each other, one tile will be consumed, but both targets end up being healed. It’s also good to aim at them with the corner of the tile so that they have the option of running through the others if they need more health.

this is why I love the tile system. There’s a lot of mastery expression that can come with it, both on a technical and strategic level. There’s many little ‘tricks’ you can do with it, unlike simple target heals.

And yeah I agree that the tile heals could be given to another cleric class. It wouldn’t have to be on the base class. But who would it make sense for thematically I wonder? I would say Kabbalist but thy have plenty of healing already.

[mrshadowccg]

The problem isn’t with the mechanics of heal tiles or party targeted heals themselves.

The problem always been with the actual amount healed / damage taken by players.

Before Re:Build:

• Mobs need to hit you 300x times to make your hp drop slightly
• 1 Heal square heals 20~30% your max hp, and there’s still 9 squares left on the ground
• Only one/two endgame instances and world bosses proved an actual challenge.

After Re:Build:

• Heal is based entirely on your SPR and not your weapon or target’s max HP.
• Choosing a non-SPR cleric class seriously lowers your heal output.
• Mobs actually deal serious damage esp. if you’re undergeared.

Result:

• Healing must be done more intensely, providing more active gameplay to full support builds which equates to more fun playing.
• DPS builds are still possible at the cost of heal power, which means no more stupid cleric builds that could do as much damage as full dps wiz and still have insane heal/support skills (yes I’m talking to you, druid-exorcist).

[_DrRM_]

[goulart]

i agree. PD is a good class to add the tile heal. And i think the numbers of tiles should be 5max, no OH but each tile being stronger than it is at actual lvl15.

[BeMagnificentt]

• Healing must be done more intensely, providing more active gameplay to full support builds which equates to more fun playing.
• DPS builds are still possible at the cost of heal power, which means no more stupid cleric builds that could do as much damage as full dps wiz and still have insane heal/support skills (yes I’m talking to you, druid-exorcist).

thats cool or whatever but my concern is if i go druid-exo because i want to be a dps char, people are going to bash me for being a bad healer. because they dont understand that cleric is a hybrid class and after this update, not every cleric is going to be a viable healer anymore. even moreso if im not a spr basec cleric

[frustratedsquirrel2]

Good ol’ satallite/angel wings technique. The ultimate answer to when your teammates are running around like headless chickens and your overheats JUST came up.

[Umineko]

I think you forgot the fact that Demon in Re:build now has one of the highest magic defence modifiers, so I guess that could be the reason why the overall damage decreased.

Iirc Beast race (i.e. Kugheri) has the lowest modifier (iirc it’s 0.5) and demon got sth between 0.7 and 1.0 as mdef modifier, so 10% extra damage after increasing the monsters mdef by over 40% will probably reduce the overall damage.

I’ll try to find the modifiers

[Remiri]

Someone else having LESS to think about in order to ‘focus’ on their DPS role is not more interactive. that’s less interactive. More interactive is me chasing after them and laying heal tiles near or on them in a way that communicates that they should break from their braindead rotation and move around a little bit.

They have to think less about what I am doing, not what they are doing. The interactivity here is as such:

1.) I cast heal
2.) The person I desire to get healed, as the healer, receives the heals.

However this happens, that is what a healer wants, and it is their role to fulfill. When I am laying down heal tiles in an interactive way, I am trying to heal a specific person with my actions. This is not how heal tiles really work within the context of the game. Heal Tiles are proactive heals, not reactive heals. You lay them down prior to damage being taken, and then you are passing the job of healer from you, to the DPS and/or Tank. You are effectively restricting the DPS and Tank’s movement based on your actions. You are actually making the game less interactive when you lay down heal tiles.

That’s what interaction means. Having to pay attention to what your teammates are doing, understanding how their class works/what you should be doing in order to synergise with their gameplay as well as changing up your gameplay to work with them as well.

How does changing from heal tiles to direct healing remove me having to pay attention to my teammates? I still need to be in range as well as all the other things you mentioned in the quote above. In fact, it means I can pay even more attention to details such as how low their life is in comparison to others, and prioritize heals based on the need of the group.

It’s not restrictive in the slightest and flows just fine. There’s a reason why a lot of action rpgs these days use skillshot healing (skill expression) and all of the quirks that come with tiles are the reason why they are so interesting.

It is by definition restrictive. I am restricting their movement based on the location of my heal tiles the moment I lay them down.

What is important here is my main point, and this is direct heals make it so that IMC doesn’t have to design every boss around destroying heal tiles. It will expand the possible design choices the game provides with its boss mechanics.

[soldatazur]

It might be the perfect design of a healer… after all, of all trash F2P kr games I played, healers were always designed this way : you stay far and heal people that are in need. But these games are not ToS, and just for that it makes a huge difference. Cleric is designed as a hybrid class, even more with Re:build, keeping tiles was obviously the best choice for me. Tiles were not balanced, I admit it, even 5 tiles only, but what about the fun of playing the class ? The recent changes lead the game to cut all animations, we lose a huge feedback impact and it feels way more like a private server.

Edit : I’m not asking to bring back heal tiles, but the actual heal with his 2 OH feels completely “meh”.

[Umineko]

You are actually making the game less interactive when you lay down heal tiles.

Isn’t it the other way around?

interactive means action and reaction between two entities/bodies/whatever.

If you just cast a targeted Heal and the other person receives Heal, he’s always passive, there is no interaction between you but it’s a one-sided action from the Healers side.

However, by placing the Heal on the ground as tiles, both parties have to take action to achieve the same outcome (i.e. the other party getting healed), which is a clear interaction between both parties (i.e. both parties are actively contributing to the outcome).

How does changing from heal tiles to direct healing remove me having to pay attention to my teammates? I still need to be in range as well as all the other things you mentioned in the quote above. In fact, it means I can pay even more attention to details such as how low their life is in comparison to others, and prioritize heals based on the need of the group.

Actually, the tile-based Heal allows you to pay less attention to your team mates and gives time for self-focus and enemy surveillance. I don’t see any reason how dropping tiles on the ground increases in-depth party-play.

Instead, it provides strategic difficulty/- depth due to Reversi and ground-destruction skills you’ve got to watch out for.

It is by definition restrictive. I am restricting their movement based on the location of my heal tiles the moment I lay them down.

That’s not true. There are currently a lot of ways to recover HP and to avoid damage that everyone can utilize by tactical placement of his character and/or item use.

The only time Heal tiles become restrictive in movement is when the character takes too much damage so that he has to rely on a regular base on these Heal tiles.
If there are other ways of recovery (e.g. Mass Heal/Aukuras Scroll/certain potions) players are not exactly forced to rely on Heal tiles.

It will expand the possible design choices the game provides with its boss mechanics.

I think rather than expanding it will simply reduce the boss mechanics because it no longer has to destroy Safety Zone & Heal.

[Remiri]

interactive means action and reaction between two entities/bodies/whatever.

If you just cast a targeted Heal and the other person receives Heal, he’s always passive, there is no interaction between you but it’s a one-sided action from the Healers side.

However, by placing the Heal on the ground as tiles, both parties have to take action to achieve the same outcome (i.e. the other party getting healed), which is a clear interaction between both parties (i.e. both parties are actively contributing to the outcome).

Interactivity just means thing having an effect on other thing. The effect here is I want to heal the other person, so the most efficient way to do that is a direct heal. Having both parties required to act is inefficient. Are they both ‘interactive’? Yes, but I would argue the more efficient interactivity is the better one.

That’s not true. There are currently a lot of ways to recover HP and to avoid damage that everyone can utilize by tactical placement of his character and/or item use.

Having other ways to recover HP doesn’t make my statement untrue.

[zordagoth]

There’s some really good arguments in favor/againt heal tiles.

I wonder where we’ll land in the end

[migliole]

I believe target healing also requires both parties interaction as long as the range of heal is not infinite, that is, you need to be in range in order to receive/give heal, which is affected by both.

[fabricio_polo]

The best thing Re:Build will do is forcing people out of comfort zone.

[Umineko]

It’s obvious that the current Heal will stay, with on-target aiming, because it’s easier for IMC to balance around.

The whole Re:build update tackled a lot of things that IMC wanted to address, and one thing is the removal of tile-based magic.

As you can see, a lot of skills that worked as tiles/or tile-like (e.g. Heal/Cure/Guardian Saint/Healing Factor/Safety Zone/Deprotected Zone/Zombify/Foretell/Ein Sof) were either removed from the game or changed into a targeted/AoE buff and/or debuff.

This way it’s easier to balance around it because the tile nature required to add higher benefits to the skills since they were clunky/ineffective to use in a lot of cases.

And while it is sad to see the removal of what mainly made the Cleric Classes in TOS unique, it just didn’t work out with IMC as the game developer.

I guess this is the silent confession that they were unable to bring a good solution for the whole system to the table without overhauling “everything”.

Not that it bothers me too much regarding this aspect of game play, because it made some skills really bad for actual use(e.g. Deprotected Zone).

Other issues that are as prevalent as ever are still suffocating the game system regardless of the current attempts to reform the game.
The whole Re:build is more affecting general game play instead of rebuilding the game systems and their interactions.

The best thing Re:Build will do is forcing people out of confort zone.

Depends, but I guess you’re right. TOS will become more difficult, which is good, because it was pretty boring outside of Velcoffer/Demon Lord hunting.

Might be even interesting if less players are maining Clerics and/or willing to invest 1000s of attribute points for some comfort endgame slave.

[_DrRM_]

[igorv88]

i think what they want to do it is make ever single boss hard, i hope that the velcoffer and the other raid bosses stay in the similar way , otherwise we are f***ed to do raid.