Tree of Savior Forum

kTOS General Thread v2.0

That is Exactly how math works.

AoE’s strength is being efficient in multi-target situations because their output per use is higher when there are multiple targets, compared to single target hits whose output per hit remains the same regardless of the number of targets.

It’s like in high school math when they taught you fixed and Variable costs.

Another example is the Skill High-Anchoring.
This is generally a bad skill but high anchoring 15 is 331% damage * 2 overheat.
However it also has 21 AOE attack ratio.
This means it can hit 21 Small enemies.
In this cause you are doing 21 instances of 331% Damage. That is 6951% *2. for 13902%

Or to say it in other words. You need 21 small enemies (or someone to reduce the aoe attack ratio of other enemies) For High Anchoring to get close in value to Split Arrow on 3 (mind you HA has a higher CD). Since you need 21 targets with an aoe ratio of 1 or less to make High Anchoring deal somewhat decent damage and this isn’t a practical reality. High Anchoring is generally a bad skill, but I haven’t tested if its attribute has more value in the current state of things.

Now you look at a move like Cyclone which does a lot of damage and has a high aoe ratio and you realize Cyclone is not only a powerful skill on single-target encounters but it’s a very powerful aoe skill.

I get that spamming the CD is what some want to do but given in general this ability has been removed from pretty much everyone but Monk off the top of my head there’s nothing else to do but put it in proportion to other skills.

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but the real dmg you deal to each of them will still only 331% *2。 When i see 13902% i blindly pick that skill for bossing to realize that i only do 331% *2。 I can understand if you use this calculation for barrage because barrage’s dmg can be accumulated to single enemy. But split arrow…it seems odd to add A dmg to B and C dmg because they are different variable. Am i wrong to wrote flareshot dmg is 3160% regardless of the amount of enemies?
You can have 1 daughter and 1 dog, but you cant add them together (unless you have an alchemy yearly report deadline)

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Aaahh, the wounds they open! CURSE YOU.

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whats the new way the number of damage added with Enchant Fire and Enchant Lightning is calculated now? whats the best stat to go for it?

first you open https://tos.neet.tv
search enchant
it will become like this https://tos.neet.tv/?q=enchant
click enchant fire https://tos.neet.tv/skills/20103
and then edit your browser address bar, add “-ktest” after tos so it become like this https://tos-ktest.neet.tv/skills/20103
voila!

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I too agree on not considering AoE when comparing skills in this case, it mess up things too much and sometimes you can’t even use the full AoE of a skill. High Anchoring is a good example, how easy is it to get 21 monsters aligned in a single line?

(Also you can escape characters with \ to prevent formating, like \* to render * without formating the text between *the characters*, when trying to show multiplications. You can check the raw post format with this URL: https://forum.treeofsavior.com/raw/321901/7412)

Damage from Enchant Fire and Enchant Lightning would be multiplyed by skill factor? Or is it additional damage?

No, it’s completely reasonable. This is why high AoE abilities are so strong, because they let you do a ton of damage. An ability that does 1,000% damage but has 0 AoE ratio might look impressive on paper but it gets ■■■■ on by an ability that only does only 300% damage with unlimited targets.

Nobody was actually comparing skills, though. Split Shot doesn’t compare directly with Flare Shot because they serve different purposes, but that doesn’t mean you don’t calculate both of them based on their potential damage. AoE should definitely be factored in when determining how much damage an AoE skill does. EVERY factor has to be considered. That’s why High Anchoring is ■■■■ - it has a long charge, low damage and bad hitbox, so its AoE ratio doesn’t really matter. Slap +20 AoE ratio on Musketeer or Cannoneer skills and see how ■■■■■■■ strong they become, you don’t even need Circling anymore. A better comparison would be Frost Cloud which is obviously way stronger than Flare Shot because it has higher damage and a much larger hitbox so it can reach its maximum target potential easier.

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Putting flare as 3160% on multiple​ enemies is a simplification of an underlying fact that it’s value is multiplied by the number of enemies it hits.

The math is the same for any skill as far as damage goes. Damage of a hit * the number of enemies hit and the number of hits dealt. The only discrepancy is min-max attack/ crit chance which is why these when being specific about damage output are averaged out. E.g. 50% crit chance is 25% more damage on average.

Which again are all part of larger considerations. Games as a whole are demonstrations of math that you can blissfully ignore depending on whether you’re trying to optimize or not.
Hence why gamers create Parsers in MMO’s to track their output and the decisions they make.

We talk using % but it’s the same everywhere. If you have 10 enemies with 1000 health each that is 10000 damage minimum that has to be done in total before they’re all dead. The only discrepancy to note is that the 1000 health of each works as a hard cap on any instance of damage. Given that dealing 1001 doesn’t matter since an enemy died.
Hence a 0 CD skill dealing 400 damage to 3 enemies will be better than the single target skill dealing 800. To think these are not directly quantifiable is basically to ignore that you are intrinsically dealing with numbers.

If I have an attack that deals 300% aoe and one that deals 900% single target with no other factor the single target skill is >= the aoe on 3 or less targets. Unless the individual health pools of the enemy can be taken out by the aoe in less than 3 hits.
Math.

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humor me this then:
Imagine Blut HP is 12million HP and I have 1000Patk.
If i cast aiming+flareshot15 at Blut and 999 mobs surrounding Blut, my flareshot total damage is 3160%x1000 which is 3,160,000%. Times it with 1000Patk resulting in 31.600.000 dmg. Ergo, at the end of my flareshot Blut will be dead, right?

Wrong, that 31.6million dmg is against 1000 enemies. You must first divide it with 1000 to know how much total dmg Blut received, which is only 31.600 dmg

then what is the point i multiplied it with 1000 (because of 1000 enemies) if in the end i divide it by 1000 again?

Math

I see

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Well it’s about 1600% with Def taken into account 3 times. But that’s fine. As someone who played HexingDoc for a long time I can approve of this change because usually you don’t have the time to just stand around poking the puppet.
3 hits takes about 3 seconds and this with good damage is really nice. At least it’s stronger than owls now!

You are kinda missing the point. Look at it from a balancing point of view, and think if you really would consider it fair for classes with big areas, easy to use AoE skills to actually have awesome damage with the same skill set on boss encounters.

Isn’t that exactly what happened to elememe at rank 7 and somehow now to Doppel at rank 8? I think community complained hard enough abou those examples…

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It acts as additional damage now, no longer increased by skill % or enhance attributes.

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The guy seems to fail to realize that not all skills are designed to DPS down bosses (single-target). Some skills shines at single-target, other shines on AoE, simple as that.

When you’re counting the AoE potential of a skill, you multiply the % by the number of targets, when you’re counting the single-target potential, you don’t.

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so if 21AAR means 21times skill damage, then basically infinite AAR means infinite%?
My point is because there are multiple target, you can’t sum the damage as one whole big body,that will make it unrealisticaly big number like 3,160,000% in my example above which in reality the damage is still 3160% for EACH recipient. The very same case as split arrow.[quote=“Delcas, post:7385, topic:321901”]
charges. 493% on initial target and 986% on two other targets
That’s a total of 2465% Being dealt out. 5 times for a total of 12325%. Every 10s.
[/quote]
that 12325% is not the same as feint+barragelv5 which is 135%*30hit=4050%
I’d rather wrote it 5x493% on target A, and 5x986% each to target B and C

Okay, i won’t pursue this matter anymore.

I think the point is just saying the total damage modifier including all AoE targets is misleading. It doesn’t tell you all the information you need to know.

For example, if I total everything up, it looks like Retreat Shot has a modifier of 72,765%. Well, doesn’t that seem like its gunning for top spot in the game?

Obviously not, because that damage is split across 33 hits across 15 targets across 10 seconds. So the ACTUAL damage output of the skill is a range between 147% and 72,765%, with a cap of 4851% for a single target. That paints a much different picture.

Just saying “Retreat Shot has a total skill factor of 72,765%” is not useful or helpful, regardless of what situation you are talking about. It leaves out far too much information necessary to gauge the actual usefulness of the skill.

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The problem that arises is that there’s also AoE and threat to be taken into consideration.
Unless I missed something, Classes other than Peltasta have a limited threatening potential (meaning they can just aggro x monsters at a time), limiting the maximum amount of possible targets.
The second limitation is the “area of effect” (or AoE) of the skill, as a skill always has a 3D-limitation (although the altitude does do very little except exempt some possible targets from being targeted by certain skills);
lenght and width around the skills targeted area are always limited, otherwise players could just fire their skills blindly and still hit something.

These factors actually limit the possible outcome very much (aside from the AoE attack ratio and AoE defence ratio), so it’s hard to say what the highest possible outcome realistically would be (it would have to take so many factors into consideration as monster spread,count, their AoE defence averaged, the area of the map that can be walked/stood on,etc.).
Then there’s the issue with random factors like evasion rate or defensive skills[e.g. Safety Zone] that randomly decrease your overall damage, so the safest bet is to compare the potential damage on 1 target instead of x targets…

Also,let’s be realistic: with the current amount of mobs on most maps, there’s no way you can output the maximum unless you run around a lot wasting time. When you’re running around to gather mobs and the time passed reached a certain threshold, it would be better to kill a smaller amount of enemies because the skill could be off CD and reused faster.
That’s also to be considered in the possible amount of damage.

For basic scenarios, an amount between 3 and 6 enemies might be considerable, and if the A.I. of so many enemies is still as bad as pre-balance, I doubt that more than 4 enemies for low-medium CD time skills is realistic to calculate a skills damage potential…

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Yes, as Bokor3→Miko→PD I want to see those meta Diev suffer and Bokor exploding zombies for even bigger damage.

Well, maybe. With more skills from later classes it would become largely irrelevant as 0CD filler anyway, but it still doesnt look like a nice birst.

At least 4 counting Hexing. With all killing potential from Vapors→Incinerate, I would rather cast Zombify→Damballa, which became even better now. An this is just 2 casts.

Not really into calculating skill damages just by adding the totals up.

Not every monster will get the full damage of AoEs, especially when they are ground based and deal their damage over a set period of time. At anytime the monster can move out of the the hit area and just receive a fraction of what the skill is set out to do.

Unlike the current iToS which has desyncing issues making aoes such as hamaya, frost cloud, retreat shot etc, ‘soft cc/lock’ the monsters in place so that they will receive the full damage, kTest’s aoes don’t behave like that anymore. In ktest it seems like monsters receive lesser ‘hit lock’ and will continue to move and reposition.

This increases the chances of the monsters moving out of the hit area, and just comparing aoes total damage to direct damage skill will skew the favor towards single hit skills more.

Doing aoe over time, there is always the risk of the monster not receiving the full damage over that entire period. Which is why in most mmos, aoe over time often deal more damage than DD skills.

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I really, really don’t think it should be view this way. At most you could “cap” it to some X targets to accept common cases.

If you look at it with a balancing point of view Falconer Circling/Aiming or character AoE Attack Ratio status would make every skill overpowered or underpowered depending on how you look at it.

If I get 3x AoE Attack Ratio hats, Five Hammer, Vubbe Gloves and use AoE Attack Ratio potions my theoretical swordie’s 3 AoE Attack Ratio skill with high % will have 10+ attack ratio.

On the other hand you have fixed target count skills which have the disadvantage of not being able to be increased even with all gear focused on AoE Attack Ratio values. (Marching Fire x Retreat Shot issue.)

Plus think about Multi Shot that can hit a single monster, then you magically add 15 AoE Attack Ratio to the character and you can kill everything in your range. Then you have a 81%*10*15 skill or a total % that varies based on character stats? Or even worse, a % factor that varies because of the size/AoE Defense Ratio of the enemy you’re currently attacking?

It doesn’t mean you should balance the skill considering you’re always hitting the maximum number of monsters you can.

Plus sometimes not even in ET you get to hit 15 monsters at once with Retreat Shot ><

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