I've now realized what is by far the biggest turn off for this game

[Gomgomi]

Hi guys. I just started playing after leaving this game around March of this year.

After getting back a few days ago, my initial reaction was that this game graphics are beautiful as ever. There have been some major changes such as the attribute system and monster health bar, etc. Overall the game is much smoother. However there’s definitely much less number of players hence the reason they added 2~4 player option on dungeon queues. And the fact that I’m on Orsha is a problem on its own when it comes to population.

All this is ok. But even with all the improvements I just cannot get myself to play any more and here is why.

This game has too much UNCERTAINTY when it comes to characters.

I have about 14 characters all above rank 7. Most of em were top tier builds. But with all the changes, about half of them are pure trash now. They’re not even recyclable, just pure trash. And of the ones left, about half of them will be trash once rank 9 hits. I’ve read through the Korean ToS inven in the last few days and some of my former favourite character builds are just beyond saving from going in the trash bin. Now as an online rpg player I expect there to be buffs and nerfs here and there. But the unique problem that ToS has is that we do not know how many more ranks there will be and how a new rank can change EVERYTHING. The core element of an online rpg is constant progression of characters ie leveling, build, upgrading gear. But at the current state of ToS there is no such thing because a new rank or a new patch can simply destroy a character you invested 183750157 hours into. THIS IS A HUGE MOTIVATION KILLER. Now I just can NOT get myself to play because there is a very probable chance that my fav character build will be trash in the next patch, or the one after, or the one after that. So until this game can finalize on the rank system, there is no reason to play this game. You are simply wasting your time and money (token as bare minimum).

Finish/finalize the rank system asap, until then there is no reason to play this game unless you’re one of those masochistic person who love spending 13532553 hours on a character just for it to become a total trash and waste of time in a single patch.

And don’t even bring up the rank reset potion as an excuse, they give only 1 with TIME LIMIT and we get it like once every 2 years.

[galphath]

We had a reset event back when most changes were made and will probably have another one when R9 arrives,

I would rather prefer that when big changes are made to a class we got a rank or skill reset on the affected character (depending of the magnitude of the change, if only a skill changed then a skill reset would be ok, if the class dynamic changed or changes are too many then a rank reset would be good)

[Goldie]

I agree. I know some of my builds will never become “trash” because they have a specific purpose, and also because I don’t care about being meta.
But some builds/trees aren’t like that. For my archers I’m often “What should I do with them ?” and regularly changing things. I like to theory-craft, but with the weapon and classes restrictions (and my tastes) a lot of the time I end up in a dead-end and think “I’ll wait to see the next ranks to build it”. The weapon restrictions are really annoying… There are just too many weapons available and skills restricted on the archer tree. Crossbow, bow, dagger, musket, pistol, cannon… Just stop, already. (Some day flute ?) If it weren’t for a few classes who have no restrictions, archers would be seriously way too annoying. Even with auto-swap.

For like half a year now I’ve been thinking this game will be more interesting to play once all the ranks are out.
The fact they give us reset events is really great, but I don’t like having to constantly reset my characters. I build for the fun, I enjoy the classes, then suddenly… nope, gotta fully rework on it. It’s disappointing to me.
Although I also understand the fun and thrill of having new ranks/classes regularly added. It’s just a matter of personal taste, I think.
To me the biggest turn offs will always be the lack of optimization and contents. Can’t have fun in a game when the few contents you have are ruined because people desync, disconnect, or get kicked from the instance channel.

[Csiko]

I have about 14 characters all above rank 7. Most of em were top tier builds. But with all the changes, about half of them are pure trash now.

If they’re trash now, they were trash before.

Rather than regurgitate a build that you see on a guide or on the forums, learn about synergies between classes and have a better understanding of how they work. When someone tells you that something is meta, but you don’t really fully understand why, you are doomed to failure.

Rank resets are going to be given out when major changes happen.

Additionally, just because the game changes and you are less than the literal top DPS, does not mean your build is trash. It means you built it for probably one piece of content which is now completely outdated. And you chose to specialize in that one thing.

[Resazurine]

If they’re trash now, they were trash before.

Pretty much this. Sub optimal doesn’t equal trash. No one’s going to flip at you for taking 6 seconds longer to kill a boss. Heck, if their flipping does affect you then you’re probably in a big enough party anyway. If you’re flying solo no one’s going to flip at you at all. Sure there might be some DPS checks you won’t pass, but there are plenty enough contents where you can take your sweet time. Besides, it’s not like the new ranks all have zero synergy with the previous classes. You can just stick to what you like to do and go along its’ ride down and up the popularity chart instead of going on an anonymous DPS race.

I gave up following the meta after a while. My hiatus allowed me to step back and see the bigger picture: the game is legitimately fun (After the rebalancing anyway. Before it ToS straight demands you to follow the meta even on supposedly casual contents, it’s ridiculous). It’s my expectations that ruin it. I can sit back and grind out my days on the fields on my own pace, doing story quests. Another protip: If it stops being fun, then it’s not a game anymore. Either bear with it for a while and help them improve the game to encompass your taste or just leave it entirely.

[Kihseki]

Remember that guy who was so angry he couldn’t class up to falconer 3? And then people found out he was already rank 8 and it was kind of funny for most people, but really something like that has an incredibly high chance of making someone quit. Basically, I agree that this game presents too many opportunities for all your hard work to end up as a disappointment. They key words OP presented are “HUGE MOTIVATION KILLER,” and just about now almost everyone’s motivation and patience is collectively running dangerously low. It’s not just about having your builds done right or having your characters salvageable and whatnot, killing the player’s motivation every now and then and just giving them a tiny hope they can fix it someday or forcing them to fix it by starting over and doing more work is just not healthy

[Resazurine]

The one that’s not healthy is that way of playing a game. Because your “top tier” characters aren’t OP anymore after a patch that automatically means IMC “destroys” that character? The damage doesn’t even fall off THAT drastically on the new contents anyway. The only thing destroyed is your ego that’s trying to one up everyone and flaunt your in game achievements. I understand and respect that way of playing the game, really. The meta players are pioneers that continuously squeeze their best efforts to hit the maximum damage possible and establish new limits. It’s just that in a living, breathing MMO, the meta always shift ever so slightly with each patch and rebalances. If you want to play the meta game then don’t complain when you can’t catch up.

The game DOES need improvement however, and IMC is trying to go that way by taking meticulous steps on their damage formula so the difficulty ramps up nicely. The solution isn’t to “finish the rank system” but rather to make a solid base on damage calculations so that everyone can enjoy the game with most build even if they continue to add new classes every once in a while.

[AllyAlly]

wrong, the solution is to make rank reset much more accessible, at least until all ranks are done.

[Resazurine]

Yeah well I hope the ranks are never done then. If they’re done then the game is effectively dead.

[Gomgomi]

You guys misunderstood me. When I said top tier I didn’t mean they’re top dps. Theres only 1 top dps build per class at a given time and there’s 4 basic classes so at most there’s like 6 top dps classes. And I have 14~ish characters. Of course they’re not all top dps like duh! What I meant is that since the many patches and the up coming rank 9. Most of my builds will NOT be eligible for group up games like Earth Tower and such. It’s not about being top dps. I guess people misunderstood me. Actually my all time favourite was Chaplain PD one which is not the top dps nor the top support. Ironically that one has risen to the top for when rank 9 comes for clerics. But my other Schwartz Reiter, and a bunch of wizards are not viable at all for the group up games. Sure they’re viable for max leveling and doing instance dungeons and leveling dungeons like blue fortress etc. But they won’t be viable for serious team composition end game content. I mean if you have the time you should go to Korean inven and see what kind of builds they’re building now. Just looking at their patch notes will NOT give you the full picture. Many of decent later ranks now require completely different earlier ranks in order to be viable for the end game play. It’s really really demoralizing.

[Gomgomi]

It’s ironic how you are so focused on ‘top dps’ when I never said such a thing. My favourite classes aren’t top dps actually. I meant top tier as in still viable for serious group up play. All this talking won’t help you realize what I’m saying. Go to Korean inven and use google search to see what kind of builds they’re building. The strong later ranks are the same as when rank 8 was out but with rank 9 out and many changes to earlier ranks, the composition of previous ranks used for later ranks are completely different from now because there are so many changes.

[Gomgomi]

Just in case people are still not understanding what I’m saying. For the sake of argument let’s say that Mergen is decent end rank for rank 8 era and rank 9 era. But because of new ranks and also many changes to earlier ranks, the ideal Mergen builds are completely different from the ideal Mergen builds of last patch. So you have to level up a new Mergen if you want to be taken seriously for end game group up play. The previous Mergen build isn’t necessarily ‘trash’. However ain’t nobody gonna take you up for serious group up play anymore unless you get the new polished Mergen build with the ‘proper’ earlier ranks.

At least have rank resets readily available until the rank patches are done, like someone mentioned. I was always in agreement with that stance. All this uncertainty will just kill off more and more players.

[gearsofwisdom]

On Rank 9 release. I think they’ll give Stat Reset and Rank resets. But you’ll have to log in on that event because the rank reset event will last about 2 weeks. The only IMC’s biggest mistake is when they nerf something. They don’t give buff to that skills or give them new effects that would compensate for the nerf. They are using their brain but not their heart. That is the reason they hurt many players and ruining their own game completely. IMC will never be seen as trusted company. Because they don’t have the power to understand the true meaning of being a game developer or to make players happy. The only thing that make IMC happy are their cute pets that makes little girl happy. The game is becoming more and more homo.

[mathias_cronquist]

ToS is too linear for a mmorpg
Even RO had more towns after a year, most of towns having their unique perks and style.

Ok i get this is all Lithuanian stuff but RO was all Nordic stuff too BUT it also had multicultural influences on both dungeons and enemies, that’s what made that game so unique, a world full of different and rich elements, also the monsters in RO were way more creative and unique

Edit: Also cities were HUGE in RO, you could even visit certain buildings and u could find a whole little world inside full of details, it was areal immersive experience back then with the little technology they had

[Gomgomi]

I still love the game tho and it has improved a lot since I left. I was really enjoying the game for a few days until I visited Korean inven and started looking at the builds. The changes to overall builds during rank 8 patch is nothing compared to the changes coming ahead. The new ‘top tier viable’ builds are completely different from what we have right now in iToS. Honestly the game is improving but it’s hard to be in love with a game where all my time and effort put in could potentially disappear into thin air whenever a new patch comes.

If you love the game keep playing it and just ignore me. That’s completely fine.

Anyways I hope the rank updates get finalized asap and I’ll come back and enjoy the game.

[Kihseki]

I did just give an example of a guy who worked only to get disappointment right? Dont tell me you’d insist on using a falconer2 even though you wanted and planned for a falconer 3 when you started out? And even I personally created many characters only to find out they don’t play as fun as I wanted them to. Not everyone is obsessed with top DPS or being OP and a character becoming trash doesn’t always mean it’s because they can’t compare to others anymore. You can completely take out other people’s performance with their perfect builds and still find yourself disappointed in a character because it wasn’t as fun as you imagined it to be. Take for example a hackapelle I created and even spent the DLC rank reset for; I was doing really well hunting field bosses with it before the world boss update even being convinced that it was good enough to invest an RHSxbow to it on top of an abdochar. World boss update comes and the bosses hurt like hell, but hey that’s a good thing right? Challenge is always nice right? But then after moving around a lot during combat in a high stress situation where you can die instantly I find myself bugging out like crap with attacks doing their attack animation but not actually registering and the character keeps standing there like an idiot because the game cannot keep up with moving around a lot where the client-side character is 1 second desynchronized with the server-side sprite placement of that character. Are you gonna tell me that I should just deal with ping and lag essentially forcing you to wait a half a second or so before doing any action just so that it doesn’t bug out? That’s not fun, that’s not how hackapelle should play and it definitely killed my motivation at the time. Not a lot of people are willing to keep playing after a disappointment like that. I don’t even know why I need an example that has nothing to do with comparing your characters to others, what makes you feel like you’re playing trash can be any reason depending on the player and even what you consider are unhealthy egoistic reasons are just as valid as any other if the game is going to make any player feel crap either way.

[Resazurine]

Okay, to clarify first, I actually have no idea what you mean by the Falconer 3 case since I wasn’t around the forum much. Maybe if they want to take Falconer 3 then they should plan their build and make space for it?

Second, why are you blaming your personal experience on the rank system when the fault clearly lies with the client/coding issue? The Hackapelle sounds good to me. You seem to enjoy playing it even if you get one-shotted and hey, I’m happy for that. I myself am enjoying Magnus Exorcismus on my SPR Chaplain. It does barely any damage on a full SPR, doesn’t sync with the AA playstyle, executes like ass because of that disappearing Exorcise tile, and potentially deadly because I have to dive headfirst into mobs on my potato connection. BUT I’m still enjoying that, even if no one’s ever going to take me up to Earth Tower.

When people said “the viable builds are changing” it doesn’t mean the “less viable build” is not fun. Heck, I’m building a Zaibas Tao right now even though people say that’s not viable anymore. I’m aware I’ll be leaving mobs on 10% HP while running around, waiting for my CD, but I will still be enjoying it. I suggest the OP to either spare some money to respec his character, or continue playing it despite the inability to participate in party play, or find friends that would party play regardless of their build, or step back and take a break until they crave for more ToS.

Lastly, please use spacing between your paragraphs. It’s kind of tiring reading all that.

[Kihseki]

To make it simple then, the point is that you don’t need some dignified noble reason to keep playing. Even if you say that a build becoming less viable doesn’t make it less fun, for many others that’s a good enough reason to lose motivation isn’t it? Just because you and others who continue to play have more patience and endurance to keep playing doesn’t mean those that don’t need to change their perspective to be like yours.

People are simply pointing out that the game keeps throwing out reasons for players to be insecure about what they already have on top of making it hard to even reach the point where you feel like you have a pretty solid foundation on your characters.

and EDIT: The reason I pointed out the client/coding issue is because the new content brought that issue to light in the first place. I doubt anyone will be happy if the game introduces new content that puts their specific play styles at a disadvantage (class balance changes and stuff potentially fall into this category). Imagine you’ve been maining an archer for the longest time and then they suddenly add entire maps filled with enemies that have missile hole. Oh wait, they did do this.

EDIT2: And please stop telling OP to put in more effort to enjoy the game or to put in more effort not to be disappointed. That’s something the game and their devs are supposed to do for you.

[Resazurine]

I never said anything about noble dignified reason. I never told OP to suck it up or stop playing either, I was just suggesting ways to keep the game fun (which basically boils down to “ignore the society and play how you want it”). In fact, I did encourage the OP to keep churning out suggestions so the game can encompass his taste. What I did was just point out that making the rank updates stop is NOT the solution.

Here’s a simple algorithm:

1. Do you want to play the meta game? If yes, spend money.
2. Do you want to play the endgame? If yes, do party play.
3. Do you want to party play with randoms? If yes, follow the viable builds.
4. Do you want to party play with your favorite build? If yes, find some friends that can accommodate you.
5. Do you want to just play and don’t care about people or endgame? If yes, then keep playing solo.
6. Do you feel tired and fed up with the game? If yes, then take a break.
7. Do you want to play a certain build, play endgame, get a spot in parties, and stop the game from evolving so you can constantly sit pretty at “the most secure build ever” without putting in anymore effort or adapting? if yes, then you have a problem.

[Billyboy]

Some people here really are defending some horrible game development practices it’s very embarrassing for an online community to do, but seeing as how low the player numbers are I can imagine the leftover people are some of the hardest defenders so it kind of makes sense.

I’ll begin by saying I agree with the OP, hence why my like is in the topic. Secondly I’ll be cherry picking some defenses people have here, and ones that I’ve seen over the years for this game and then I’ll even make some up to play the devils advocate to further bolster my point and to explain why I completely agree with OP.

I’ll try my best to avoid class specifics because as OP made it clear those are always under constant change and attack and game changing patches happen continuously (in Korea anyway) to the point something you said a month ago is now completely negated by a patch we didn’t see coming.

1. Statement: Some classes will never become trash.
   Counter argument: There have been multiple classes that people considered to be the corner stones of group play and solo viability that have been reworked to the point they either do not perform well anymore, or at all. Drastic changes sometimes come after free character resets have been offered.
   Reality: The only classes that remain needed is a healer and AoE damage.

2. Statement: Play what you want and have fun in other ways.
   Counter argument: Fun in an MMO is most often not entirely subjective. MMO’s work just like real life and imagine if a class was your career in life but suddenly someone just decided that your job now pays 0$ / month and your past experiences make you not eligible for a new job anywhere.
   Reality: Saying that is like saying “go play other games for fun, this game is work.”

3. Statement: Play what you want and make friends who accommodate your build.
   Counter argument: While making connections and friends in an online game is vital especially if you plan on playing it for months, if not years, most players online play alone 99% of the time until they need to do group content. If you cannot even do things on your your 99% playtime, you will have a bad time…
   Reality: You’re really just saying: be a social butterfly and get others to carry you.

4. Statement: You don’t have to do end game content.
   Counter argument: End game is called end game because that’s what everyone is aiming to do. Some MMOs offer other activities to do but Tree of Savior it not one of those games. There are no deep crafting classes, no solo farming activities or interesting mechanics to play around with. PvP is just a pass time joke that offers very little benefits to the individual player.
   Reality: The road to end game is impossible for 90% of the class builds in this game.

5. Statement: You want a secure build and class? You are an insane person and should feel bad about this.
   Counter argument: Absolutely crazy statement.
   Reality: People defending the changes IMC makes to class balances are people who have not been affected by them in a devastating way aka cash cow fat whales.

6. Statement: Meta chasers deserve it for chasing broken mechanics.
   Counter argument: Most people make meta builds because they work, not because they break the game.
   Reality: You never know what is intended and what is not. What actually breaks the game is the item Transcendence and Anvil Upgrade system.

7. Statement: It’s not pay to win, it’s pay to progress faster.
   Counter argument: This is an MMO where progression is the only thing you even do.
   Reality: The cash shop offers direct benefits to not only convenience but vital things, such as trading and bank functions among other things. Then there’s the lootboxes that offer some of the biggest MMO benefits I have seen. It’s nothing but gambling with pay to win.

8. Statement: They might offer a class reset when big changes happen.
   Counter argument: They might. They never tell us in advance. You live in complete darkness when it comes to this game. The 1 rank roll back that is in the beta branch as of right now in Korea is just one circle. It does nothing for builds that have been reworked so often they barely resemble what they used to be.
   Reality: IMC wants to make MONEY from class resets, but they realize their game is in a horrible state still. They don’t want to offer an in-game method of resetting your class because it would hurt the possible revenue. This is why they added a reset into the Steam store and make reset events that only last a few weeks. These reset events can be completely missed by players.