yall reallllyyy love useless restrictions that help no one
I seriously hope this NEVER becomes a thing.
If they let people switch circles it should only ever be if a specific circle gets massively nerfed or changed and those people affected should be given the opportunity to change.
But I donāt see them completely killing a class right now.
What is with people and needing their hands held through all their mistakes?
Yes, I barely know anything about Lineage 2, I did mention I donāt know how it worked completely.
But since I saw this post where one complained about getting a wrong skill, people simply suggested he earn more sp. Which kind of implies that either thereās an sp system that can get you an unlimited amount of skills, or a large amount of skills that the mistake wouldnāt really matter.
Diablo 2 and 3 is different because all classes there can do fine on their own. There are no dedicated healing/support classes and content can be tackled solo by anyone of them. The only difference classes do would to change your skills and maybe your playstyle. You can also reset your skills/stats there (in both games), in case you guys have missed them.
And I donāt see why the existence of a circle reset, especially if itās implemented properly that doesnāt warrant abuse, would make people quit or stop supporting the game. But then I reckon the loss would be so minimal and the profits from the existence of an expensive TP item will overtake that profit loss in no time.
Given that there are more people in here against circle resets than for them, youād be wrong. People, especially dedicated players, flocking away from an MMO is the easiest way to kill it. Dead servers arenāt fun for anyone, even the pay-to-win crowd.
We arenāt so sure how much of the outside crowd would care about this. So weāre pretty much stuck between whether or not circle reset is a good or bad thing. But I reckon there would be a lot more people who wouldnāt just care at all.
Iām not sure if you know the difference between P2W and convenient cash shop items.
P2W is when you sell something in the TP shop like anvils that let you upgrade items at 0 potential. You gain a clear advantage over everyone else as you pump more money into it. Thereās already an existing item in this category: enhancement scrolls. Weāre lucky that cosmetics donāt fall under this category as a lot of other games do.
Convenient cash shop items are like repair kits and warp scrolls. Theyāre there to help you save time while not primarily giving you a huge advantage. It doesnāt add anything that you can already get for free. Of course, it still does give you a slight edge, but only of time, not money, and is not necessary for anything at all. Circle, stat and skill resets fall under this category. They are called resets for a reason, they donāt add anything, it helps save time, and theyāre there for your convenience.
And honestly, itās not like only a few people would be able to have access with some form of circle reset anyway. Everyone can just as well buy one themselves. F2P players can also avoid using one by perfecting their build, which is entirely possible now mainly because EA players gave input on more proper and effective builds.
And again, like the nth time Iāve repeated, there are ways to implement a system that doesnāt warrant abuse. Changing complete builds from one to another shouldnāt be possible - but changing at least one circle to another should at least be possible, to promote class experimentation and class diversity and allow players to fix their build minimally without having to re-roll a completely new character.
Also, there are much more notable factors that lead to a dead server. Honestly, those who are saying that they would quit because of the existence of a circle reset are simply faking it and overreacting. Giving up the joy and your investment of an entire game just because some people get to change to other circles is unrealistic.
2 Likes
The only logical way I see to implement circle reset is the following:
First exclude ALL Trade Class, such as Alchemist, Pardoner, Squire.
Secondly, one circle reset per week at maximum. And you have to grind back the xp for the circle you changed. AKA. You decide you donāt like Hoplite C3 and want to change this.
You get to remove ONE circle per week. So in this instance youād remove Hoplite C3 and get access to a new circle that would start at level. Requiring the XP of your highest current circle rank to level.
Not only does such a system prevent abuse but it DOES allow someone to fully respect except it would take that person about a month or two. At the same time it allow someone that did a slight mistake to correct their build quickly. Without trivializing the game completely.
Just my 2cents.
1 Like
Couldnāt have said it better myself.
Iām usually one to say that it isnt p2w if f2p players can attain it, but straight up TP to circle reset would be p2w imo. Especially if it costs 1k TP like the guy above mentioned.
If it was some other mmo with a generic class systemā¦ pretty much any other mmo, then it wouldnt matter much, but the class system in this game is one of the main features of this game. Class building is probably the most important aspect of this game that makes it unique. Itās more important to this game than end game content. No, class building isnt just deciding what class to use and build. Its actually leveling the character.
Imagine being able to buy the best raid gear in WoW without having to spend any time in the dungeon other than being the level to use it. This is similar to what some people are suggesting because one of the main draws of WoW is doing raids. Is it not P2W even if others can attain it for free? PvP has changed alot since i played so im not sure how to compare that. Maybe buying the PvP gear?
Just saying ācircle resets isnt p2w because it doesnt add anything you can already get for freeā Isnt true in this case IMO.
There are some suggestions that would make it not p2w. One i have posted here already.
You all want the game to be a stereotypical grindy korean mmo but dont want it to have stereotypical korean mmo āp2wā elements
You canāt have your cake unless you eat your veggies first guys
I never said it was Pay -to-Win. Iām not sure if you know how to read or not, but at this point Iām leaning towards ābarely if at allā.
As far as not knowing what the outside crowd wants, people who are interested in resets would be MORE likely to click this topic than those who arenāt simply by reading the title alone. That skews things in the favor of wanting resets and still the ratio is against it.
Just because something isnāt Pay-To-Win doesnāt mean it should be in the cash shop. Why not put exp cards in the cash shop at that rate? Itās not Pay-To-Win.
Your entire argument hinges on you assuming people are calling this a pay-to-win item. You keep reassuring us constantly that itās not a pay-to-win item like thatās debunking our arguments even though LITERALLY no one called it one. Itās like arguing with a parrot. Again, Iām fairly certain at this point that your reading comprehension skills are basically nonexistent.
Alright, then we can assume the EXACT same for those saying they would quit if a circle reset isnāt implemented as well. Since weāre telling people what would and would not make them quit, weāll just say that neither side would possibly quit over it. Sound good? Good. Now thereās no reason to even discuss it any further. We can just leave things the way they are. Glad we had this discussion.
You keep saying that thereās all these ways to prevent exploitation and killing class diversity, but thatās just wrong. Itās too hard to prove something that theoretical one way or the other, so itās pointless to continue arguing it. PvE classes will be mostly gone late game though; I can promise you that. I have no urge to talk about that point any further. There is more than enough evidence even behind this gameās inspiration, Ragnarok Online, to prove that be 100% true.
Add Templar to the list of classes you canāt change into. You also should not be allowed to change out of it, maybe unless you disband the guild you are currently handling. People should be welcome to change out of those trade classes, and should they choose to do so they canāt change back into it again even if they wanted to.
I would go over and make it 1 month per reset only. That way people who want to change from one complete build to another will have to wait 6 months which is half a whole yearā¦ That length of time is no joke and you couldāve made 3~4 capped characters at that amount of time. Not to mention the costs of having to buy 6 of the reset items, which would be really, really expensive. At the same time, those who only want to fix one circle wonāt have any problems, while those who want to change a couple of circles will have to wait months (equivalent to making another high level character) to do so.
Rolling back class levels is iffy to be honest, it makes the implementation more complicated for the devs and it can ruin character progression by various factors, which Iāve discussed plenty of times. I think itās better to just stick with a cooldown.
How? Reset class, you were rank 7, now you are rank 6 at the job advancement screen. All they would have to do is make it so you can only pick from the right tier of class. like if you reset a rank 4 class, you can only pick the rank 4 or lower classes. EXP needed would be for rank 7 though. not too difficult.
Iām pretty sure youāre implying it is P2W. Since weāre discussing circle resets and you mentioned P2W, I donāt see where P2W is relevant here besides talking about circle resets being that way.
And as you can see, there are a fair amount of people who are against it and not against it, which kind of makes your statement about only interested people flocking here wrong. Those who donāt click the topic simply donāt care at all in this case, or are not bothered to chime in with their opinions of it as well.
Exp cards in the cash shop are obviously pay to win. This kind of enforces more of the fact that you donāt know the difference between convenience and pay2win elements, ya know.
And again, there are multiple ways to imply something is P2W without saying it is.
People disagreeing to it because it lets other people change from something like a DPS build to a support/tank build - thatās implying itās P2W.
People saying users of the skill reset will bandwagon to popular classes - thatās implying itās P2W.
People saying games like the old Ragnarok didnāt have a reset system of some sort - thatās implying itās P2W.
Quitting because of the non-existence of circle reset is extremely different, and multiple people have mentioned why. Hereās an example by @Zipzo as to why:
I think most reasonable people if they spend 1000+ hours on a character, for example, find out that one day their class has been totally changed or modified in a way that wasnāt what they read āon the boxā, most of these people arenāt going to re-roll. They are going to quit. Overall this is an unhealthy result for the game, and itās not super unreasonable to imagine why someone might quit in that situation.
In a way, circle reset affects something how an individual can play a game. The key here is to make sure that player would still continue playing the game and in turn support it.
And again I say, quitting because of the existence of a circle reset is not reasonable - it is unrealistic. It is vastly different from people wanting to quit due to the lack of a circle reset because they canāt enjoy their own character anymore and do not want to throw away hundreds or thousands of hours of investment to make a new character from scratch.
It may be hard to prove, but at least Iām thinking of a middle ground. Being close-minded will do anyone no good. And no, PvE classes WILL NOT be gone late game, especially since the game is just new and is bound to release more levels, classes, and content. PvP will likely be the least of the developerās priority because they already established them, and newer levels/classes have nothing to do it with, but PvE content do.
And again, you are pulling out of the Ragnarok card. People who keep latching on to the idea that this is some spiritual successor of Ragnarok should just stop thinking that way. Hakkyu Kim, the creator of the game, is the same creator of Ragnarok, but thatās it. If anything, the inspiration that gave birth to this game is not Ragnarok, but the ideas of the creator himself. Ragnarok isnāt the only thing that this creator made, mind you, as he also created Granado Espada. And even Granado Espada is vastly different than Ragnarok Online.
What I mean is this. Remember back in the lower levels, Iām pretty sure people hit these milestones of level 80+, level 120+, and level 175+ where you are finally able to move up a rank. Now imagine those exp cards you used to attain those levels will be wasted upon resetting any circle at any rank. Also imagine that you might be currently in a grind wall where there is no decent map or area to grind in. Now also imagine how the developers would program this: would they apply bonuses/nerfs to exp gain based on levels for these rollbacked class levels, or would they have to implement an entire new system for rollbacked class levels that specifies only the specific range of levels that a person got to it?
Yes this all sounds complicated but thatās the point. It is very complicated. It causes a major stir on character progression, which complicates it not only for the devs but for people who want to use it.
Yes the ragnarok fanboys need to stop
This isnt ragnarok sweaties its tree of savior let it be its own thing move forward
Ragnarok was a pay to play game it had a different business model and was a completely different game
Oh thatās mighty convenient. I guess you just get to decide what is reasonable and unreasonable for everyone to quit over, huh? Man, you sure are good at debating. Are we allowed to quit over xp-cards being sold in the cash shop, or would that be unreasonable too? Since youāre CLEARLY the boss of what is reasonable and unreasonable to quit over, and literally tell everyone else what they can and canāt quit over. [quote=āLevan, post:133, topic:210568ā]
Iām pretty sure youāre implying it is P2W.
[/quote]
No, you just WANT me to , because that can easily be disproven. I have said repeatedly it is not Pay-To-Win. That doesnāt make it a good idea. There are plenty of items that arenāt Pay-To-Win that should never hit the cash shops. As I said before, XP cards would be a prime example. You completely ignored that though, conveniently, to tell me, once again, that I was calling resets pay-to-win. Classic parroting.
Itās really all you can do, and itās honestly just getting funny at this point. You canāt argue against a point, so you just tell your opposition which point they are trying to make and ignore what they actually say.
Alright, well you think everyone should be able to reset nonstop for free with no cooldown, even to other classes. Thatās so silly! Why do you think that? See how stupid it is when someone else tells you your own argument? This is literally all you can do.
At this point Iām not sure if you canāt read what I say, donāt understand it, or donāt care what I say since you just tell me what I say anyways. I really am at a loss with you.
Iāll agree with you here for a second, just because your own point is proving you wrong. This will literally happen. If you think it wonāt happen, you are beyond learning. If thatās what you call a Pay-To-Win item, then this item WOULD BE a pay-to-win item.
I donāt consider this Pay-to-win, but I do consider that to be a bad situation, which is what will happen if resets are allowed. Itās not pay-to-win, itās just bad mechanics. But since you insist that I do believe that this item is pay-to-win, and since you believe that those situations would make this a pay-to-win item, you literally consider this a pay-to-win item yourself. Those situations will undeniably happen a lot. Maybe not 100% of the time, but they will happen in huge waves.
I donāt know how you can even say things like this and not realize what youāre saying. Youāre literally stating the item as a pay-to-win item under your own rules, while telling others that they believe it is pay-to-win(even though they never said that) and then arguing how it isnāt.
I even put that last part in bold so you might actually read something for a change.
Not that big of a deal. add a couple more dailies. Grind for the rest. The point is it taking effort too. If it still takes effort to do the reset other than just buying it, it wont be so bad. They could add a small bonus xp until you get back to where you were if they feel it needs to be that way.
And your trying to make it sound more complicated than it is. Devs have to think of how they are going to implement it? oh no, too compicatedā¦ As for the xp bonus, just apply a buff like the token that wears off when you max the rank. Cant reset a rank that isnt at max level. There needs to be some risk in this game. If you screw up, no get out of jail free cards. Cant just reset circles on a whim and have it maxed instantly.
Thatās understandable so long as the effort isnāt outmatched by the fact that you need to pay for something for it already. As you said, exp boosts would do the trick. Of course, Iām guessing itāll still be up to the devs on how to implement it. If I were a developer though, I would just leave it as is and not rollback and levels. That would need more coding to do than simply resetting and changing circles.
Maybe you should take a step away from your computer and take a deep breath. Youāre taking this way too seriously for a particularly petty argument. 
First off, exp cards in the cash shop. I think it takes half a brain that free exp being sold in the cash shop is p2w, thatās so painfully obvious Iām kind of questioning your sanity as to why you would imagine that sort of thing at all, when itās completely unrelated to circle resets.
And now I ask youā¦ Why would you quit over circle reset? Now thatās one thing Iām concerned about. You arenāt reading my posts at all if you canāt get the gist of the whole point as to why a person would most likely quit without a circle reset than that of a person who would quit because there is a circle reset. Re-read again, keyword there is āindividual gameplayā.
I want the whole picture as to why a person would quit in this case if there is a circle reset. Iāve made my point across, itās time for the people at the other side to provide their points as well, besides leaving the āIām gonna quit if that happensā statement without even relaying the reason why youāre against it in the first place.
No, you have not repeatedly said itās not pay to win. At the same time, I give you credit that you didnāt say itās pay to win. But then you suddenly mention the grounds of pay to win in the midst of our argument. You imply that P2W elements exist in failing games. Now tell me, why does this need to be mentioned in this argument when, as you have stated just now, that circle reset isnāt P2W? That IS the topic at hand, isnāt it? In context you meant it when we were comparing between multiple games, but the specific comparison between games we were making were concerns about reset/respec systems, not about P2W things and stuff like that.
Whatās funny is that youāre fuming over a silly argument. Take a chill pill. And the irony of it all is that you go over a lot of my points without reading it yet you accuse me of not reading your points. I address every single point youāve made but youāve missed a bunch that Iāve made. I just didnāt mention anything about it because I assume you conceded on those points. Now howās that for not reading?
Alright, well you think everyone should be able to reset nonstop for free with no cooldown, even to other classes. Thatās so silly! Why do you think that? See how stupid it is when someone else tells you your own argument? This is literally all you can do.
And now you even prove yourself that you donāt read. Iāve been talking time and time again about a restricted and controlled circle reset system and it went completely over your head even though I mentioned it in each and every post. What you mentioned is the exact opposite of what Iāve said. Not to mention the complete irony leaping bounds from this statement.
At this point Iām not sure if you canāt read what I say, donāt understand it, or donāt care what I say since you just tell me what I say anyways. I really am at a loss with you.
You donāt get the context of it?
You said that viewpoints are skewed because the topic aims to invite people who are interested in the existence of a TP reset. Yet here we donāt see a vast majority in favor of circle reset, itās a bunch of mixed opinions. Thatās why I disagreed at your point that viewpoints on this matter are skewed because the results talk differently.
And now suddenly you go about, saying circle resets are P2W when you said this statement in the same post:
I have said repeatedly it is not Pay-To-Win.
Itās funny because you just completely contradicted yourself in the very same post youāve made. Then you proceed to not consider it not pay-to-win? I mean, really? Make up your mind already. And you only mention bad mechanics now, but not in any of your posts, and just kept mentioning or implying P2W at any chance you get.
And thereās a big difference between P2W and abuse. No, changing from a support class to DPS class doesnāt suddenly make you stronger against every other class. You would have just copied another build that everyone elseās using. So whereās the advantage at that, besides saving time and effort? However I also consider this as a particularly bad form of abuse as it lets people bandwagon from one class to another or whateverās trendy or hot, which is why Iāve stated multiple times that there should be restrictions in place against it.
And again you did not read the multiple points Iāve made about controlled circle resets that should prevent something like those to happen.
Hereās my statement that Iāve been trying to make over and over, because apparently you havenāt been reading my posts enough and itās not clear to you:
- Circle resets arenāt pay to win where you get a distinct advantage.
- Circle resets however are abusable where you can bandwagon from one whole build to another. No, this is not a P2W trait, you donāt get any advantages over anyone else just because you bandwagon to a popular class that everyone else is using. This is the other side that proves that it can kill class variety should there be a circle reset. Circle resets do both - they kill class variety if not implemented right, but they also promote experimentation because it provides a fallback after experimentation.
- To prevent this and ensure that circle resets cannot kill class variety in that form, restrictions should be in place so that this cannot be done instantly or quickly, or in just a short amount of time.
You might as well be a mascot for irony at this point. Telling other people that I donāt read posts when you clearly didnāt read most of my posts at all stages of this argument.
I was just thinking the EXACT same thing about you. How funny!
Iām not going to explain YET AGAIN. You can go back up and read (assuming you can read). Iām done typing things for you to ignore.
Because it ruins the balance of the game. Because it will eliminate a lot of classes in the game almost entirely during the endgame phase. Because of any of the number of reasons I listed previously, but again you donāt read them. A large part of what makes this game interesting is the class system, which is pretty much pointless once they start allowing resets.
If I go back and start quoting myself will that shut you up? Will you even bother reading it? I highly doubt it. Youāll just tell me once again that itās not pay-to-win, tell me Iām implying itās pay-to-win, and then congratulate yourself for making a point no one is arguing against.
I do, however, read your posts, a courtesy you CLEARLY do not share. Thatās how Iām able to respond to all your arguments while you just repeat yourself over and over, like some sort of parrot.
No. You havenāt made a point at ALL actually. Your point is purely repeatedly saying itās not pay-to-win even though nobody is arguing that it is. You have yet to make an actual point.
And yet Iām still so much more calm than you. Calm down, man. Youāre going to have a heart attack.
Do you understand how percentages work? Iāll explain it to you as if you were a child because thatās clearly the only way youāre going to learn: Letās say you go to the new Batman movie. When you get there, you notice that 40% of the people there are wearing comic book T-shirts. Does this mean that 40% of all people wear comic book T-shirts? The answer is no. That means that 40% of people at that movie wear T-shirts even though the likelihood is way higher at that movie that someone would want a comic book T-shirt. The reality is that that 40% is overly represented in this group. The reality is that less people want those shirts, even though this type of event attracts that crowd more. If you canāt understand how that relates to this thread, I donāt even know what to say. I canāt explain this situation any more simply than that, though I feel you still wonāt understand.
The restrictions would either have to be so high that everyone would STILL complain or so low that it wouldnāt matter. Thereās really no point you should need to reset your character. By the time it takes more time than itās worth to reroll your character, you already know enough about the game to make fine decisions about your characterās classes. This game is balanced fairly well, and is getting better all the time.
The main people that are going to want to reset are people like the OP who tried to abuse a clearly broken class that got nerfed down to fairness. They werenāt playing for fun. They were playing because the class was way too strong and they knew it. They should know itās going to get nerfed. Thatās common sense. Itās now fair, and heās mad. So he should be rewarded by saying āoh, we know you tried to exploit poor balance, but we fixed it now, so would you like to change classes to something else?ā. Thatās stupid.
Should people not be at all rewarded for leveling with builds that are more difficult to level? Iām going to bold this for you This game is balanced around different characters being good at different things. Most of the people that rushed to 280 will tell you that they just took the easiest classes they could to 280 just to say they did it, and are now working on their much more difficult to level mains. This isnāt just some conspiracy theory, you can go over to reddit and ask them yourselves, or go to the twitch streams.
Your restrictions are so poorly though out they are a joke. Are you going to restrict transferring to/from every class with an out-of-combat ability? Thatās about 1/4 of the classes. Already this would be too many restrictions. So then what determines which classes can and canāt be transferred out of ? Just some random list? Great system you got going there.
If you let people reset 1 circle per month, thatās going to appease virtually no one. That does nothing for a class build at all. All itās going to do is if thereās one particular skill that gets buffed to be overpowered or ends up with some really strong bug/glitch, everyone is going to quickly take that, then cry when it gets nerfed and demands more resets.
Those are literally direct quotes in order. I canāt tell if youāre a troll or just incredibly stupid at this point, but Iām starting to believe the former.