Yes it will take time. This game has been out since 29th March, which is like 2 months ago. Do be realistic and give them more time, as you can see most if not all of the MMOs out there will have balancing issues at the beginning when they are launched. Only when the game is out for some time ( > 6 months) the balance patches will be in.
Every MMO have balance problems but they donât punish players like ToS does.
Some MMO even allow player to fully reset after major balance changes.
How does ToS uniquely punish players that other MMOs donât? Please, enlighten me.
Look at all modern MMO, most of them will have some kind of reset feature, allow players to fix their mistake. Some even offer free reset after major balance changes.
meanwhile in ToS only certain classes, builds are welcome in high end lvling parties or world boss raids.
Some do, some donât. This is one that doesnât. Most older MMOs didnât. This is clearly a game based off of older MMO ideals in almost every way, with the exception of the massive amount of quests and ease of leveling.
Thatâs every game if you just play with strangers. Make friends and you can play whatever classes you want. You donât go into (almost) any MMO with a random group of 5 archers and expect to clear endgame content.
[quote=âVanic, post:106, topic:277056, full:trueâ]
Some do, some donât. This is one that doesnât. Most older MMOs didnât. This is clearly a game based off of older MMO ideals in almost every way, with the exception of the massive amount of quests and ease of leveling.[/quote]
Can you name me a âsuccessfullyâ old MMO without reset feature? and how does it work?
Pretty much all of the original founding fathers of MMOs didnât have resets (Lineage 2, Everquest, etc).
ofc that is when we donât have much mmo to choice like nowaday (silly me)
Thatâs every game if you just play with strangers. Make friends and you can play whatever classes you want. You donât go into (almost) any MMO with a random group of 5 archers and expect to clear endgame content.
Most of us play with strangers, not everyone have a good partners to play 24/7, not mention about end game contents, just look at basic contents like lvling after lvl 220 and how they only ask for certain classes.
You mean like every other game? Like I said before, any serious game wonât allow you to clear the endgame with just 5 of any mixture of classes. Parties of pick-up-groups will always be looking for certain classes. Thatâs all there is to it. Itâs not unique to ToS. Itâs the very fundamentals of MMO or even just videogame strategy.
280 isnât end game, this game is suppose to have 500-600 lvl
saying only certain classes should be viable at high lvl counter the meaning of âgreat degree of freedomâ quote from IMC
Well, the current endgame is actually 280. Stop with spouting that 600 level nonsense as you have no idea what the game will even be like by the time that comes about. It will likely be several years from now and this game will be VERY different.
Itâs a good thing every class is viable at high level then, isnât it? It might not be ideal, but it is definitely viable. If you only wanted to be the absolute best optimal build, then you should have researched what was optimal. Donât punish other people because of your laziness. If you just wanted to play a class you enjoy, you can do that too.
What you canât (or rather shouldnât) do is just slam your head on the keyboard for 200 hours with your eyes closed and then cry when your character isnât the strongest in the game and demand IMC do something about it.
I love the theme of my class build and Iâm not going to change it, but I donât like how buggy and clunky it is, so I still waiting for balance/tweak patch.
goodluck to those who playing unpopular build/classes when next rank come out
5 People agree (like) with me and just one (you) desagree
Go away, mister White Knight
sigh
Iâm not even disagreeing with you⌠You know what, itâs pointless to try and talk to you. You can only understand what you want, so yeah. Alright.
You do realize that is irrelevant to our current argument because Iâve never mentioned or compared other games in my posts, didnât I?
Never mentioned anything about reset not being sold in TP or not. I think itâs pretty clear cut that I advocate for a paid reset in my previous posts.
How exactly would class resets widen the gap between paying and non-playing players? I assume youâre under the misconception that class resets are a form of P2W when itâs really not.
Letâs say we have two people, Player A and Player B.
A and B makes the same build.
Along the way, both players make a mistake on their build and/or want to change certain circles in their current build after learning that a certain circle/build is better to get than their current ones.
IMC decides to allure both players into buying a fairly expensive circle reset to fix their issue.
Player A decides to buy it because he/she has money to spare.
Player B grits his/her teeth and passes on it, so he/she just rerolls a new character.
Player A gets to level 280. A few weeks later, Player B gets to level 280.
With this, we can see that both Player A and Player B has the same build and same end level. The only difference between these two players is the time theyâve invested in working for that dream character, Player B was only held back a few weeks because he/she made a new one.
In the end, do you see any difference between them? Nobodyâs gonna walk up to them and say, âOh, you had an easier time leveling, that makes you stronger than this other guy that the exact build as you.â Nobody would care. Both players still get the same end result. I donât see any heightened disparity here. (if anything, this player who rerolled a character would have a spare character to use for dungeon runs⌠So even if he/she did invest a bit more time on the game, he/she can take advantage of the benefits of an alternate character, making him/her the winner amongst both of them! But thatâs probably just irrelevant to the current argument as of nowâŚ)
You do make a great point. Developers should have a decent reason to implement something like a circle reset. For now, the only reasons I could think of are mainly to help players fix broken builds due to lack of information or misinformation about certain builds, or give IMC an additional monetary gain that is different from what we have now, and at the same time is also not P2W (just to reiterate, class resets are NOT P2W, theyâre for convenience). All of these reasons however are subjective and I canât say theyâre definite reasons to implement a circle reset. I believe this is something that can be answered in due time.
Eh, Iâve played a lot of korean MMORPGâs and balance is always one of the bigger problems that most korean devs have. Itâs not really something to be anticipated because balance changes donât come overnight. And also, non-meta builds arenât even being made because of this very reason. If a person took time and effort to build a non-meta character and experienced what it has to offer, then thereâs the information you need. The thing is, there would hardly be any people to even begin to do so because everyone will just aim for a meta build at first glance because thereâs no insurance from class resets in the game. If there is a form of class resets however, nobody would be afraid to try something new because they have something to fall back to in case that plan backfires.
And besides, itâs like you think once thereâs a form of class reset, everyone will suddenly flock to meta builds. Sure there will be a number of paying people to do so, but Iâm sure a great deal of people will still stick to their current builds either due to the allure of its uniqueness, or simply because they donât want to spend money to circle reset when they can simply make a new character with a meta build they want.
Developers also want money, itâs a business after all.
Remember, if there are people who are actually willing to pay just to change their build when they can simply just re-roll or make a new character, these people are part of what the game could be funded on. Sure, people can still pay money to buy more character slots and in turn lead to more revenue, but class resets would most likely be more expensive. And there are a large chunk of people who arenât willing to invest another set of hundreds of hours into the game into making a new character.
Also, plenty of complete builds/characters play differently. You canât jump from a Swordsman to Wizard or vice versa through circle resets. People who want to try what the other 3 base classes have to offer would still make alts, and still invest a lot of time into the game regardless. Also, certain builds in the same base class play a lot differently - like for example, based on my experience, I like my Priest-Monk because of its fast paced gameplay and ease of farming but I also love my Diev-Doctor because of the endgame power and support. While they are both Clerics, I like alternating between them all the same, and even if I had just one of them and circle resets were available, I wouldnât spend money (a fortune, at that, if itâs changing the whole build to the other) to change the progress Iâve already made on my current character - I would just make a new Cleric with the other build that I wanted and get the best of both worlds.
So your real conclusion here is that you simply donât want a reset that comes in TP, just something that anyone can get? I mean, if this were the case you couldâve just said so directly.
Although honestly, something like this would be far better off for a cash item that is indeed P2W. Enchanted headgear, for example, can mostly be attained from the cash shop and be granted a distinct advantage, but at least enchant scrolls can still be gotten in dungeons (at a low chance) and you can still buy enchanted headgears from other players with hard earned money. The same applies to tokens which are easily attainable by F2P players by buying them from others.
Again, class reset is not, and will never be, P2W, unless the core mechanics make it so. And really, I donât see how someone changing from one build to another (or maybe even just one circle to another) would suddenly make them stronger than everyone else who possesses the build they changed into. Honestly the only difference I see here is that someone just used precious IRL money to change a build when they could just make a new one for free instead.
Let me reiterateâŚ
Class/circle resets = not P2W, itâs pay for convenience.
Unless people have concrete evidence and proof that it is, I welcome people to state them. Just make sure theyâre concrete, that is, and not some theorycrafting or âwhat ifâ scenario.
1 Like
How many huge updates have you seen? Oh yes its 0. Now dont come here and tell me IMC couldnt offer resets upon big updates like HUGE balance changes and especially rank8-10 release. Get real and just move on to a game that suits you. Maybe?
Every game with a class system will always have nerfs and buffs. The only difference here is that you can choose how your class is built. Even though wow has spec system it doesnt mean every game has one.
Also not every game is a copy of each others. Please, find a game taht suits you.
Also to add to this. Are you seriously stupid enough to think that ANY class combo in a game with choice would work? OF COURSE you need to think about synergies. I doubt ToS was made with the thought that whatever you do its going to be great! xD If you fell for the marketing strategy âX amount of class choicesâ, yes they offer choices but in what world would that work? Some class circles do need fixing but everything will never be at same elvel of play. NEVER, will there be 100% balance in ANY game.
Every game will always have more and less favored classes for partying. Its up to the player to get over it and enjoy the game.
EDIT: Im sorry if I sounded a bit attacking and rude but I dont understand how people still fail with common sense in gaming, and life. Not every game is meant to be the same game. I wouldnt mind a balanced reset but that would mean huge drawbacks for resets such as having to level the class from lvl1 again etc.
Yep, your argument is definitely the most logical and unbiased ones Iâve seen so far, unlike the others. I apologise for jumping into conclusions.
Anyway too much text to quote, Iâll just reply without the quotes :3
My stand on circle resets has always been on the fence, the game itself comes with no circle resets and I do believe the devs intended it to be so based on their game design. So, in order for a circle reset to happen, there much be a really convincing stand in which why a circle reset is beneficial to the game itself.
Being a convenience tool isnât really a solid argument imho though. There are just too many things which can be added as convenience tools.
For example a scroll which can warp the player to any visited map in the world. It is a convenience tool too, but implementing it would mean the core aspect of exploring and running from map to warp point, warp point to map meaningless. Games are always made with limitations and to inconvenience the player in someway or another. This is why games are so addictive, they limit what the player can or cannot do and the player uses this limitations to advance in the game.
Just like what you said, the only valid reason is to help players fix builds which is due to lack of info/misinfo. This happens all the time in most or or all games. If you notice, these days all the games do not contain detailed guides or any of the sort. Most of the information are player/community discovered. Droprates, builds, guides are all player contributed. Hence there is an inherent need for players to explore into builds which are less ventured. Currently I can say besides those who are willing to venture into the unknown, a number of other findings and discoveries are made due to the limiting feature that this game has. Players who are stuck with their so-called ânon-metaâ builds adapt to it and form their own build/guide. This is how the community gathers information at the beginning stage of the game.
Having a reset now at this stage, whether a single circle or full reset, is actually detrimental. As like what you say, players prefer convenience; and with such convenience at their fingertips, it will be hard for them to just âstick with a non-metaâ, trying their best when they know there are better meta builds which can do the job more efficiently.
Next is the balancing issues, developers do need to gather statistics and feedback on which class works and which doesnât. From there they can make tweaks to those classes to make them closer to those classes which are at the top. This is where having players stick to their choices come into play. Without a tool of convenience to change, players have to stick to their guns and utilise whatever skill they have to challenge the content. This is what the developers want, get data from players who play their utmost to see the limitations of the class choices they choose. On the other side of the spectrum, having class change will only let developers know that the class itself is unpopular due to everyone changing their circles out of it. It will not reflect what limitations the class has and what is the âpeakâ of the affected class as compared to other classes.
Another issue in which circle resets actually hurts is the longevity of the game. In the game industry, games prolong their game time (longevity) using different methods, some offer endless end-game content, some offer rerolls (like how single games with new game+) and some let the player has freedom of control in the game. Having circle resets which is a convenience to players actually lowers the amount of game time in which a player need to spend in game. With the current limited content it will be really hard to keep the players interested since the core of the game which is to level a build which âcanât be changedâ is being marginalised by the circle resets.
This is something which IMC really needs to solve, and Iâm sure that they will not go for an option which lessen the amount of time the player spends playing their game. I can see having a reset option being implemented in future, where content spans over to circle 10, level 500 and beyond. That is when 1 character takes thousands of hours to complete. But for the current iteration of the game, it is really hard to justify that since reroll a character to max is only 1-2 months of gaming away.
On IMC as a business
I do agree that IMC is a business, and ToS is a tool used to make money. In my opinion making the players reroll a character and making paying players level the rerolled character faster with TP exp tomes will give IMC more revenue than selling a circle reset potion; which by your suggestion, is only available once a month to prevent abuse. If you just count on average 400 hours to invest on a 280 character with 70% time spent on leveling will yield around 280 hours of exp tomes. That is around 2500+ tp? It will be really hard to match that with a circle reset even if that player only use exp tomes 20% of the time.
As to how resets should be in game⌠given the points above, if a reset is to be implemented, it will be something in which
*An alternative to reroll, but it must not overshadow rerolling of a character (a 2nd priority kind of option)
*Something in which both paying and free players can obtain
*Something which promotes spending more time in the game
*Something which will still let IMC gather data on the lesser used classes
Thus, having resets at TP obtainable level, use to instant change doesnât really satisfy the above requirements. If you look at some of my earlier posts, I do suggest having a reset as a 100 hour long quest or having to re-grind character/job levels.
Not every classes in TOS could do well even with good synergy because they are still incomplete.
I did test my build since CBT 2, all those Necromancer bug, lame AI, clunky mechanic still sitting there untouched.
And please, before asking people to do research, make sure that the game is balanced and every classes have their own usefulness, right now it is not and my class is one of them. Itâs only easy to do research if you play popular classes.
1 Like
bump we need to know what IMC have to say on this bump
i donât know if i will agree or disagree on this one, so let me just tell my experience with these resets from the perspective of other games:
-
RO: the official servers have skill and stat resets, respectively. No class resets. If you have chosen a job (btw, for the benefit of those who didnât know: RO jobs are laid like: novice > first job > two options for a second job > (optional transcendence = âhighâ) high novice > high first job > high second job > third job e.g. novice > swordsman > crusader > high novice > high swordsman > paladin > royal guard, unless you are using a special class) that would be your role for the rest of your gaming life there. I believe skill resets came first before stat resets, and for me both of their prices are justified. Those resets are convenient for those who would want pvp/woe (guild war) later on (though we have âlegal waysâ to level even if oneâs skill and stat build isnât optimized or apt for pve such as leech/blind, mercenaries etc.). Moreover, they gave free resets on major change patches (canât remember if they gave free resets from events or cash-based prizes)
-
Dragon Nest: this is where i saw the âdarkâ side of reset. A full job and skill reset is available here. Jobs are laid like: basic class > first job (two choices) > second job (two choices). Resets are given as a free reward when you reach the level cap (optional to use) or you can also âearnâ it thru doing some pvp (if you can stand the cancer). Additionally you can either buy it from the cash shop or wait for events that might give it for free. Well, the one of the bad things are, skill changes happen so often, like in a 2 or 3 month basis. Because of this youâll easily find yourself having a hard time finding a âpublicâ party if youâre using a class that isnât âinâ at the moment, unless you have a good number of friends to run with and does not mind whatever class you are using. For example, Basic Class 1 can choose to be Class A or C while Basic Class 2 can choose Class B or D. In Month 1 Class A has the highest DPS while Class B provides the best buffs/support. In Month 2 or 3 Class C emerges as the highest DPS while Class D gives the highest heal. This may or may not include nerfs or bugs to Class A and B. This results to players changing jobs to Classes C and D. This is an endless cycle here, and people often asks : âwhat class has the highest DPS?â to which a logical answer would be: âit doesnât matter, it will change after a few months, better stick to your class or have a multitude of characters and use whoeverâs the best as of the momentâ (it is currently easy to max level anyway). Another downside would be the efficiency of the pilots. Not all Class A who rolled to Class C can efficiently pilot their characters to the maximum, it might take time to re-master a class again depending on the complexity of the class, especially if they were changing from DPS to support. Some contents there rely much on the supportâs ability (tank this, use this skill at this stage) to which public parties rage when their support sucks just because the pilot doesnât really have much experience using the class he or she changed to.
on a sidenote: i personally selected 2 or 3 builds (here in TOS) then chose what i think is the best and will probably try to create the other builds on new chars if i have the time. if the reset comes out and i get bored or frustrated with my current build, i think iâll be using the reset to try the other builds out.