Ro have rebirth system.if this is not a class reset i dont know what is.
Then you donât know what a class reset is.
When you rebirth as a monk youâre locked into going a champion after rebirth, you canât switch to knight or even priest.
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Yeah, what OtterTamer had said. Players are still locked to whatever class they were before rebirth. Rebirth is an additional job option. In RO, players can choose not to rebirth but loses 30% hp/sp and the added skills (but the exp requirement from rebirthing is roughly 30% more too).
The only things reset are the stat and skills.
No circle resets, let us embrace diversity.
You have no idea what will be viable in end game because we donât have it yet.
Lack of resets reduce diversity. People donât typically continue playing a broken character once they find out itâs broken.
Itâs an endless argument if you want to continue talking about broken characters when the game is at least 2 years away from knowing what is a truly solid build. If anything, circle resets truly reduce diversity as it will continuously be rolled into what suits the person entirely at that point in the game. Think this is a good thing? Thatâs why people are requesting that dungeon resets are lifted. One character for everything. This is a slippery slope argument of wanting a LOT more for a LOT less, even if circle resets had a restriction.
Having a circle reset goes against the design of the game completely. Team level, dungeon/mission instance cap, extra characters.
Iâm looking the game as for evolution, this game is fairly new and skills will need balance. Next circles will also need balance. There will be error on descriptions people will try stuff. And obviously we have nothing to test out skills except the skills description or people that have already tried it.
At low level this might be acceptable, remake the character etc. But if you invested a lot of time and money on your character with character bound equipment. You probably donât want to choose a skill without testing it before. In case that the skill description was misguiding. Youâd end up informing other player to not choose this. Which isnât what youâd want first. You want something that go well with your gameplay.
understand that I am against reset at the base. I think it can destroy a game since it give the people the ability to go around perfect meta without investing the time that would be needed for that. (Making a pure leveling character and reset to another class)
The tree of class in this game is almost like the root of this game so we canât put a whole reset tree.
I still believe that if people do an error at high level and feel desperate about it, there should be a way to fix it.
So I believe we should not talk about reset but more about âabandoningâ a circle. If the person abandon the circle he lose all his class exp and have the ability to choose another circle that he must level again. This thing could be limited to a certain amount of time depending on their real play time and also cost base experience too.
And of course this would work only for the last circles you got.
Iâve thought about the idea of resetting the latest rank, but this could be easily avoided if the marketing department of IMC actually puts videos and descriptions online on its website.
They cant even give a text description of a skill.a video he want. This MUST be in the game as well not on the web,forum,youtube,wiki irvwhat ever.IN THE GAME.
So I believe we should not talk about reset but more about âabandoningâ a circle. If the person abandon the circle he lose all his class exp and have the ability to choose another circle that he must level again. This thing could be limited to a certain amount of time depending on their real play time and also cost base experience too.
This is what we want here you know.
Convenience does not mean itâs mandatory. Itâs an entirely optional and lighter route to take. Also convenience does not mean itâs for free when it comes to convenience tools for a game - itâs almost always in exchange for something. If it is for free however, that means the developer purposely wants it to be a part of the game.
IRL money isnât some unlimited resource that everyone would be willing to spend on for a game. Let alone on convenience tools. But Iâm not saying people shouldnât spend it at all - Iâm saying people should be free to pay for something if they want to.
All in all the same goal is still in place - for the service provider to earn a profit, and the customer to be able to enjoy whatever they spent on.
Now, when it comes to game like this, thereâs still a delicate balance to be aware of when implementing what kind of services to provide, especially if you donât want it to turn P2W. P2W is when you suddenly hide features or elements behind a paywall. Convenience absolutely does not fall into that category.
What you said pretty much supports the need of a resetâŚ
And really, I donât see why this matters when the information is already out there. The problem is that it isnât organized to the point that it can be seen by everyone at first glance. You either have to dig through very deeply, obtain multiple viewpoints and cases, or on a last ditch effort, experience it first hand on how it goes.
Also when thereâs a guide on an unorthodox build and everyone agrees to its usefulness, itâs already meta.
âAt their fingertipsâ is like youâre implying itâs so easy to access when itâs not. Again, money is valuable. The decision to spend it must be weighed against other factors first.
Again, let me state that this game isnât as complicated as you make it out to be. Almost everything has been discovered already through beta phases and even early access. The problem is that the information isnât compiled into a neat little organized stack that everyone can go through when deciding their build.
And the thing is, the very people who would change from a non-meta to a meta build are already clearly aware of the flaws that their non-meta build have to give an idea on what the developers should start balancing on.
People donât simply change from one build to another just because something is popular - if their current build works for them then why would they change it and waste money, when they simply can create a new character? And if their current build simply does not work, then thatâs when they really are in need of the circle reset already.
A gamesâ longevity is tied to the population, not on the time you need to spend in it.
The thing is, a game will still die outright when you canât keep players invested in the game. This is why you provide more content, updates, events, and other things that gain peopleâs attention and make them play it.
There are multiple factors as to why people quit, and itâs not just because thereâs only a bit less time invested into the game.
And let me reiterate that multiple builds donât simply work the same as another - this is in line with you thinking that nobody would make new characters with different builds anymore when circle resets are available. People will still make them if theyâre interested in it.
IMC shouldnât really give away the option of retaining a possibly paying playerbase who require the circle reset for them to continue playing. Even if itâs not something thatâs much of an issue now, we wonât be able to tell how many players would come back once their issue is resolved, especially when better and newer games have been released inbetween that catches their attention.
There are other factors to be aware about when re-rolling. You abandon a whole character with untradeable items/gear/silver, and maybe even event items in the future. Exp tomes wonât help you to retrieve those.
Also you forgot that progress in this game isnât directly tied with just grinding. Most of any playerâs exp will be coming from exp cards from quests/wings of vibora which cannot be increased through exp tomes.
2500 TP is obviously an absurd amount that nobody would want to spend on for re-rolling. Circle resets with a standard amount just a little bit higher than the current available skill reset potion would be better to get. And again, this option is for those who are willing to spend for it. In any case, players are free enough to re-roll their character and avoid spending for it.
Iâve already told my side as to why some of your points are wrong so your kind of reset simply wonât work, and will not give IMC a decent reason to implement it. But Iâll still look over your wishes to what the circle reset should be:
I think itâs pretty obvious for everyone that spending money for something you can do or get for free is not an overshadowing option.
Again, circle resets are just there for convenience, itâs an alternative option to re-rolling that anyone can do.
Free players can still re-roll and make a new character. Paying players have the option of spending money for circle resets, or avoid spending any and re-roll to make a new character. No matter who does what, the end result is still the same - they get their desired end build.
This should only be a factor when it comes to a real P2W cash shop item, not for circle resets.
As opposed to the other option, where a person would possibly quit because they donât have time or motivation to re-roll a new character, Iâd think this is pretty much a given for a circle reset.
This is pretty much irrelevant to circle resets. IMC will determine it through player feedback and trends.
And no, resets wonât make unique or unorthodox builds extinct. If anything, it will promote people to make them because they would have access to a circle reset to change to something else for the character to not go to waste.
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No that still wouldnât address the â â â â scaling of class abilities that you canât actually witness until you hit 200.
To summarise everything that you said, is that as long as something is a convenience to a player it should be implemented in the game, since convenience doesnât fall under the P2W category at all. Where do we draw the line then?
Leveling is time consuming and a hassle, letâs sell instant level up tomes in TP section. It is also a convenience, just like how a reset is since the player doesnât need to spend time again to level up. Do you see the connection here?
How is that not a P2W? Essentially you are just advocating a âinstant level-upâ feature just that you are âtrading one of your charactersâ for another character with the same level, items and achievements.
The problem isnât with the game itself. The community needs to get together to collect and consolidate the information. This is how websites like tosbase and tos-kt.neet.tv are. They collect and compile information. This is how each and every game out there is, the developer releases it with no one else knowing much about it and let the gaming community go figure it out. Sometimes it will take months, sometimes it takes years.
The reason and problem you gave here doesnât really support the need of a reset. If lack of information warrants a reset, then every single game out there will cater for it. But it clearly doesnât.
Yes it is at their fingertips, when you see the current market everyone spends so much on games you will start to realise that no matter how you price the reset, it doesnât stop anyone from using it.
Beg to differ on this. There are still lots of things which arenât discovered at all over on all the english boards. Everyday I find new things to learn and new things to write about. Again it is the community that will need to compile information so that other players can gain from them, and it takes time to do.
And, you will be surprised how fast players change from one build to another when it is made readily available.
A gameâs longevity is tied to the population who spends a substantial time in it. During the design stage of a game, the producer will need to dictate how much time an average player will spend on the game, and the concept and design team will design and plan the content accordingly to match the number of hours needed for the game.
For the current iteration of ToS (which is like 2months+ old?), the content layout is mapped roughly as follows:
Leveling content+quests from 1-240: approx 200hrs
content from 240 - 280: approx 50hrs
280 âend game contentâ: 10 - 20hrs
Apparently the current âend game contentâ has very little weightage here, since the developers plan for content higher than 280 in future patches. If you put it in the perspective of longevity of the game, having a reset as a convenience means shortening the amount of time the game can keep the player invested in the game. This is a big no-no since if players can reset at a convenience, for every reset they get means is around 250hrs of game time shaved off, which is another 250hrs of time the game has to sell its appeal to its customers gone.
In all it is about how much the game is worth to the player, if the player find that it is worth his time and investment. I seriously doubt he or she will find it a hassle to reroll a character.
There are new things which IMC are talking about implementing, including transferring of items (premium cosmetic items) amongst your own team. This we will need to wait for more information.
Yep 2500 TP is an absurd amount to pay, but paying players are willing to pay even a small fraction (maybe 10-20%) of it for every new character they roll so they can get to 280 faster. The heavier the grind the more intriguing the EXP tome becomes for paying players.
With the hypothetical TP reset potion, will it gimp the EXP tome sales IMC has? Certainly it will as players only need to level a cleric class to 280 and get to enjoy playing all classes the cleric class is linked to.
Yes, you want to them implemented for convenience.
Convenience isnât a reason but an excuse to implement reset.
All games are built based on a set of rules and inconveniences to begin with. What I canât move Rook in the diagonal way like a Bishop in chess? Why tennis have to be on the luv-40 point style? Why we canât have a warp statue on every ToS map or best have an ability to warp to anywhere we want?
All these inconveniences are what makes a game, a game. They exist to hinder the player and lets them use the tools available in game to get around it. If they ultimately canât, try another method or way, the alternative (reroll) is already implemented in the game.
Edit:
It will be really great if there is some other reason other than convenience that can warrant a reset in game.
bump imc bump bump mump
It is up to you to judge the potential of a class based on the information you gather. Do you know the potential of a C2 Oracle? C3 Pardoner? Or classes that you arenât sure of? Are you willing to take the plunge? Not with that attitude. Just because a certain class may make you regret your decision, understand that that is yours to make and if you cannot decide, play another character or take a break, because it seems you are only looking for people to do your work.
No matter how you look at it, if youâre set on the path for your character, a skill reset is more than enough. Class balancing is far away, so it is a matter of whether you want to deal with the deficiencies of your class or not.
I think youâre thinking too much into this. Itâs common sense to know what kind of convenience measures should and shouldnât be in place. Also I hope you can get over the idea of trying to imagine makeshift and unnecessary scenarios that lead to the implementation of a circle reset because this is entirely irrelevant to the argument in question.
I think the real problem here is that your line of thought is predominantly comprised of causality between one entirely different point from another. You assume that just because circle resets would be implemented, it would suddenly lead into absurd stuff that you imagine like level up tomes.
You have to think of circle reset ALONE as a standpoint. If you keep making what if scenarios or assumptions stemming from the implementation of a circle reset, youâre never going to get anywhere. Youâll just repeat the same thing over and over.
And nope, instant level =/= circle reset. Remember that you invested time already into the character you may want to use circle resets on.
Uhh, that information is already collected. Thatâs what beta phases and early access phases are for.
And if you look at it one sided and not look at multiple factors that warrant a reset, obviously just the information side alone will not be enough to consider it.
And if we look at future prospects you are presented with multiple classes that no amount of datamining can we get a clear picture of until itâs completely released, and they will be a part of the class infrastructure that we all took a long time to familiarize and content ourselves with. This lack of information alone warrants the need of a reset.
And what is your problem if people would spend on it? Are you simply jealous that people can afford something you canât? And still the idea here is that even if people do buy it, they donât get any distinctly huge advantage compared to people who donât.
Also in a business perspective I call this an opportunity.
And again, not everyone will spend for it. Circle resets donât have the same value as cosmetics or premium items like tokens and enchant scrolls. if there is a way to avoid paying for a circle reset and they want to spend their money on something else, then they will. Youâre assuming that because circle resets are there it would mean everyone would be using it. You are tying your arguments closely to assumptions so much that itâs not going to get you anywhere.
Thatâs when you assume information is new. In any case, most information is brought in when they are made accessible to people who either have not come across those pieces of information or simply havenât learned it yet. If you knew korean then you would find a lot of ânewâ information in inven or other korean based forums.
In any case, that information canât be new. Itâs just reformed in a way to make it accessible to you.
The only way new information could ever be legitimately claimed as that is when the developers change or add something into the game.
Honestly though itâs an irrelevant part of the discussion here, because the beta phase exactly answers this part of lack of information.
If different people endlessly learn new things about a game every single day this would essentially support the need of a circle reset.
Itâs pretty much a given that population is tied to time invested.
And time invested is extremely different from a personâs willingness to invest time. Developers have to make sure the latter is encouraged so that people will still keep playing the game. And when they keep playing the game, they get more chances that the player would also invest money into it.
First off, the game is not 2 months old. kToS was around far longer than that.
Second, your numbers are assumptions and cannot be validated as absolute proof.
Third, time invested =/= money invested. If you think that the game will live long just because people spend a lot of time in the game, then youâre just narrow-minded. There are multiple factors included that you simply missed completely.
I didnât mention premium items because that was already solved. What Iâm talking about is true untradable items, like Otrava Shield, for example, or monster gems, silver, etc.
Key word you said there is fraction. People wonât pay for 2500 TP. But they would for something around 10~20% of that if itâs a means to ease grinding. But in any case, usage of exp tomes is still vastly different from what a circle reset provides. Exp tomes wonât help ease the time from quests, map exploration, etc.
And again youâre assuming people will suddenly stop creating characters when circle resets come. Youâre missing multiple factors here: Not every base class is the same, not every build from each base class is the same, and not everyone is willing to pay for a circle reset.
A game is for entertainment.
You clearly are being opinionated if you think a game revolves around making sure you suffer. Honestly while there are some challenge that must still be there for a game, not everything has to be made that way, and in any case, itâs up to the developer to decide whether or not implementing something for the sake of convenience will not break the game.
All of the examples you gave are exaggerated and vastly different from what a circle reset could be in Tree of Savior. if thatâs your last ditch effort, itâs not a very convincing one.
And just to note, convenience is not the only thing that I am arguing about when it comes to circle resets.
Convenience isnât implied when I was talking about how circle resets can retain a number of possibly spending players who would decide to quit than to re-roll another character (this is a regular phenomenon, this is not an assumption).
Convenience is not implied when I was talking about potential profits for IMC.
Convenience is not implied when I was talking how circle resets have the overall benefit of promoting class diversity by giving people the ability to create new characters without fear of endgame incompatibility, or being able to experiment different circles from their current build.
All in all, if thereâs one thing to understand here, which is particularly evident in most of your posts and replies, is that you are revolving most of your arguments in assumptions and âwhat ifâ scenarios the moment circle resets are implemented.
Assumptions alone arenât valid arguments. If this is whatâs keeping your argument in place, itâs not a very good convincing one at all.
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Not really. In design each and every element has its importance in the game. Anything that is implemented will have direct or indirect impacts on the game itself. Both positive and negative aspects have to be considered. It is only when the pros outweigh the cons then it has a chance to be implemented.
This is the fundamental law of nature and nothing escapes it. Cause and effect.
Next is the direction the developers want to bring the game to. ToS as of now, is a korean influenced grind game. The company is korean based too. So far there has not been a big hoohaa over at kToS wanting a reset like how the international (or maybe a minority in the iToS forums) wanted it to have. Invested time is towards the build which you agreed with 2 confirmation windows every single circle advancement. That is the time you spent playing on Class A. The game doesnât want you to spent time playing Class A and then can just switch to Class B or C without spending time to get them.
Not all information is collected during beta and early access. In software development these phases are used mainly for UAT (user acceptance tests), for bug discoveries and balancing. Testing on a controlled environment will yield different results from the actual time when the software is released. This is the reason why so many softwares and games out there need patches after release.
Let me reiterate my stand again. Iâm in neutral ground and do weigh the pros and cons of having a reset at this current iteration of the game (2 months of iToS). So far the pro reset side has yet to come up with really credible reason on why should a reset be implemented.
Pros of reset
- Enable more class choices with just 1 character invested
- Able to reset âmistakesâ
- Let players play their meta builds as and when they want
- Short term income gain (due to selling of reset potions)
Cons of reset
- More headaches and problems for developers, (e.g. Templar reset = guild how? )
- Even more restrictions and code problems to solve 1)
- Potential income loss (Reset potions at cost players most likely buy once/twice and thatâs it)
- Detrimental to core/grind nature of game. Players will just likely to play 1 character only and âresetâ to suit the game
- Concept of 80 unique classes will drop down to only 4 classes since there are only 4 classes with reset of all subclasses.
I do agree with what you said, we mustnât be one sided in thinking only when looking at this subject. And I humbly hope that you will think about what you said too when you say âone-sidedâ. It will be really great if you can tell me what are the negative aspects of implementing a convenient TP class reset solution.
If you want IMC to implement a solution to please a minority, how will you implement it so it can please the majority? There are other players who likes the game concept as it is now, with rerolls only. How will you cater to them?
Please donât be âone-sidedâ in your thinking. âDonât want a reset just donât useâ is just as bad as âDonât want to reroll just quitâ.
Yes we do have to assume that it is ânewâ, since there are some differences between iToS and kToS afterall. Personally when I became a Kabbalist, there are nothing much over at the forums here. Every single piece of information is painstakingly contributed by our fellow players who take the time to experiment, post videos and answer to other playersâ questions.
Yes I agree it is largely irrelevant to the discussion of having a reset. All games at the beginning stage suffers from the lack of information until someone posts it up on gamefaqs (since the early 90s), community boards or some 3rd party company publishes it (eg, prima guide). It shouldnât even be used as a basis to fight for reset.
Again finding new information everyday doesnât really warrant a reset unless major changes are made to the class itself.
For example they suddenly rework the entire swordsman class giving peltastaâs taunt as a base class skill. Then yes a reset a warranted cuz it affects the entire class tree.
A class reset isnât warranted when a player makes a choice on class selection but not partied due to his choice by the community. It is more of the communityâs stigma for meta rather than the game itself. All classes can clear the end game content, it is just whether the player with the non-meta build can find a party that suits him or her thatâs all.
kToS started opening to the public in Dec 2015. That is still considered a relatively new game and the game contents is roughly the same as ours, with them having gvg patches soon.
Usually it is the players who spend a long time in a game will invest the most money to it. Do enlighten me on what other multiple factors which I missed.
Actually Iâm not very far off from making the assumptions. In the case where a TP reset is in place. There are a few things going to happen.
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A paying player will only have a maximum of 4 characters only (since there are only 4 base classes)
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Loss of potential income from sales of extra character slots (why level when you can reset)
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Loss of potential income from sales of EXP tomes. (once you reach peak you have no use for EXP tomes)
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TP reset the number of times used will be a couple per character, which is considered as a low sale product since players most of the time will only reset a couple of times to refine their builds.
One of the main problem is that you see that this game only has 4 classes instead of your character is a unique class with a mix of a base class + whatever circles of sub-classes the base class is entitled to. ToS is not a game with just 4 classes.
Absolutely agree. Both of us are trying to convince each other with huge wall of texts comprised of only our own opinions and assumptions on our end. There are totally 0 credible statistics and facts from both ends to substantiate both our claims. Oh well.
Letâs just agree to disagree, clearly we arenât of the same wavelength here. :3
NO PLEASE! Ive rolled over a hundred toons to find my perfect build by no means should some fresh novice be able to have my achievements due to his value of a wallet warrior.
Wrong. If we had resets not too many would be testing out. Once the best builds were found everyone would just stick to them for the most deeeeps. After that everyone would just be the same, most efficient build. Sounds interesting! 
Just play with what you like and make a class combination that has synergy. Underpowered classes always tend to get balanced and 100% balance this early in the game is pretty hard to achieve.
You seem like a person who is scared to make choices. What if this game had normal classes so that each class would just be that one class and always have the same skills by default? Im sure in that case you wouldnt be complaining about a class reset⌠So why now?
The only thing thats making you scared is the fact that you have choice in this game. People are usually scared of making choices and Zipzo is no different. :3