Fencers niche I guess is long term sustained DPS. In the current patch (I haven’t done as much research into the renewal patch in terms of this yet) fencer is extremely good at this, if not #1. For relatively low HP enemies/bosses yeah, doppel will destroy fencer, but that’s because doppel is a burst class, and if you can build a character to the point where your burst skills are enough to take down the enemies you fight, then yeah, you’re going to be #1.
However, for the sustained fights, fencer really does shine. In these kinds of fights, from actual experience, I can outrank decked out transcended doppels if I play perfectly, and I do not have any transcendence - still using a venier for now.
Spear classes will really just bolster fencers damage too. Again, in the current patch, I’m not sure how lancer fairs (literally never seen one at these fights), but dragoon extended DPS is pretty bad. Hoplite with stabbing can be good, but if a fencer and a hoplite are competing in the same fight, by bolstering their own damage with spear lunge and such, the hoplite will actually be feeding their competing fencer more DPS - can’t choose who takes advantage of your debuffs. Safety is also a non-issue in these situations, so attack range means nothing (which only applies to regular attacks anyway, which is low DPS if you aren’t a corsair or something)
I wouldn’t be surprised if the same thing holds true in the next update, but the updates purpose is balance, so at the same time I wouldn’t be surprised if it doesn’t hold true. Need it to come here first before I can make definitive claims
I would say that it is if you want to level up fast and have a skill reset at disposal, which with events is not a uncommon thing.
But even if this is not a good argument, 1 lv of Sept only is not a bad thing. Because at least something happen when you level it, and Epee Garde doesn’t, in the current case that you don’t crit. Or even better, 1 point in Epee Garde now pretty much changes nothing, as there is no class in the swordsman that makes you crit, except spears.
I don’t think the current Sept is a good analogy to what Epee is now.
Although it is easy to nerf a 0 CD skill and make it healthy, I’m not against the 0CD removal. What I’m against is the nerf conjuncture that when added with the removal of 0CD just makes things worse.
By “same” I mean the same mechanic. It’s like having all skill 0CD and critical focused.
Also, there are better ways of making an overpowered mechanic balanced, removing it is not one of them.
Dunno. One thing that I confirmed is that Tree of Savior’s Fencer lacks good design. What is a Fencer? That is why I want a rework of the class.
Well, the only equivalent competitor that might need more attention are the other melee DPS. But no one needs more attention while dealing damage than a swordsman, and the evidence is how much HP we have.
Every other class have something to avoid damage, like range. We also have to count a lot of elements, like type of defenses, which wizards pretty much “have it easy” as the dev post said. I heard clerics got a big damage nerf, but whatever happens they can heal themselves while focusing on their DPS classes that are still there.
Inserting other classes trees is a bit more complex and frankly, all classes have their own issues on other topics. So let’s focus on the melee patk DPS, which is the swordsman choice.
Considering the current patch, Fencer needs a lot more ammunition than a Doppel. And yeah I’m talking about pots.
Considering the upcoming patch, Fencer won’t need pots, as, we could say, the spamming will be the AAs… which Doppels are hell better.
Ahn, spears have lots of other uses. In the case of focusing on WB killing, yeah, you could say they suffer, though I would say that a Dragoon is too much designed as a PVE support than anything. Not going to prolong here as I have little to no evidence.
To you who think that everything is okay with Fencer in the next patch, make a list of unique aspects, synergy, AOE, range, damage, shield demerits, exclusive attributes that a 1H/2H sword, 1H/2H spear has and a rapier has and try to think what make then balanced. Also count that pretty much everyone can achieve cap damage with transcendence.
The same thing that happen to Doppel too is the removal of Overpowering skills. Before this patch Lv15 DOV and Lv15 Cyclone is a must for Doppel. Resetting skills to lv 1 after taking Multicuts and Deepcuts attributs that require Lv6 is another unfair advantages that doppel has before.
But now the meta investment and the unfair advantages has gone (I’ve heard from someone that play on test server confirm it to not work for now).
Than you have a fair option to invest skill points as a Doppel now, becoming a Great Wide Area DPS by maxing Cyclone, or maxing the Narrow Area skill with more satisfying damage, or Hibryd them.
And the class that i think will take more risk and attention here is not far from melee, but without decent HP status like Swordsman. Yes it is Hackapel, never play this class before though, but i think this class must be the 1# DPS from its mechanics. Just my opinion, dont mind to much.
I kind agree, but I think Hackapell is lacking two things, which is people who wants to invest in him (which might happen more with the reset event) and a decent PVP, as it is kinda obvious that Hacka is a PVP focused class, much like Lancer is, that is, both can be used PVE, but they don’t excel.
And well, as long as you have an unhealthy PVP environment, PVP classes will suffer.
Surely the cost of venier+a ton of pots is much cheaper than an orange 2x practonium sword transcended to stage 7+. Right? …right?
I don’t think fencer will have to use AA at all if you build the class in a way that promotes the use of only skills. In fact I think fencer might be the only swordsman class capable of doing such, which again, promotes sustained long term DPS
Yeah but youve been asking what fencer is actually good at it/excels over other classes, and I gave you an answer
If I have the option of driving a car that can turn around the world without using gas, I guess it is cheaper as hell.
Well, Rapier:Agression makes mandatory the use of skills.
New DEX would make this fine for Fencers if they had 0 CD, but they don’t have anymore, so yeah, AAs are the only option now.
Then that will be decided with Dragoon3 vs Matador, I guess?
And frankly, I think Matador will be a PVP class while Dragoon3 will be the real boss killer.
Are you comparing the archers and finestra crit rate buffs to that? I don’t think that wild nature is that great.
Also, remember, the issue here is “what Fencer has that a Doppel doesn’t?”, because the current patch makes that Epee Garde does the exact same crit damage increment that a 2h swords passive from highlander has.
Considering the demerits that I keep repeating here that Fencer has (and Doppel don’t) and the fact that barbarian is a more natural class choice to a Doppel than to a Fencer (because of damage type and STR synergy), I can’t see Doppel being equal.
I actually see Doppel being millions times better and me being retarded for choosing a rapier.
No they aren’t? You know other class skills exist besides fencer class skills right? Unless you mean to say that rapier mastery forces you to only use pierce skills? In which case, here’s a cool tip that becomes known with having experience playing fencer, rapier mastery aggression tooltip is wrong and actually applies to all types of skills!
Pet peeve of mine when people bring out a discussion about rank 9 when we’ve heard absolutely nothing about it. I personally believe there wont be a rank 9 anytime soon, maybe a year, maybe two, maybe never. Not addressing this
Nope. You said NONE, I brought a counter. That’s all there is to it.
Sustained DPS. Already answered this. Also already said I’m not making definitive claims until I actually test stuff and see it in action when it comes to iTOS. We don’t have enough info yet, only speculation.
That’s not how this works??? Epee basically increases your final damage by a percentage. The highlander passive effectively increases the critical attack stat
KTOS, not KTest so not fully updated. The consistency of damage on composse and sept is not there. If that guy’s equips are on right now, he’ll probably do a consist compo crits of 77k or above~ per hit. w/ even higher results on glassmole. Overall, way stronger burst on au fer and flash. Best geared fencer I’ve seen so far, but I think he would be more consistent and powerful with full green gems. Gonna wait to see if he ever switches to full greens and uploads.
I inserted here rank9 because you’re comparing two classes that have very different designs from each other, being Dragoon designed for boss hunting, and Fencer to something I don’t know. So I made an assumption that it is the fact that Dragoon might achieve its full potential with 3 circles. Does it seems reasonable? Does it seems dumb? That is your call, but I do believe it is not reason for you being nervous, like I am those doods who keeps repeating RANK9. This is the first time I’m speaking about it and not even using it as the core of my case.
Concerning my mistakes, thanks for remembering me that thing about the Rapier:Aggression tooltip issue, I think it was from you that I first read about that. The problem is that I never experimented nor saw a good evidence (yours is not good to see the difference as well.) I shall do it to see if this is the case.
Concerning the Highlander attribute, I believe I expressed myself pretty bad, I’m sorry.
What I really would like to mean is that you have the same bonus type to an already good class. Of course, it is not as GOOD as Epee, but I don’t know if you’re reading correctly, I’m comparing the conjuncture of the classes and not the skills individually. It is obvious that Epee Garde is better than the highlander attribute, but considering what 2H already have as bonus and Rapier have to pay, I think it is fair to me to believe that something is wrong.
I’m no expert, therefore, I don’t have an completed thesis of what to do and it is normal that I make hypothesis while I expose the problems. I don’t like the changes and I’m trying to find a good solution, maybe my case is completely wrong.
Relax, I’m here just to talk about the class like anyone else.
I still don’t really understand the comparison between epee and the highlander passive because they do not function similarly at all. The only thing they have in common is that they both boost damage (which most attributes and buff skills accomplish)
I don’t get the need to do a pre- and post- reset doppel build. What’s the difference? I only see difference in distribution between different offensive skills.
Well, if you can’t understand, let me explain my perspective, as I’m perceving it is not clear at all.
Let’s make a list of points to each unique aspect between a 2H sword and a Rapier. That means that, the fact that Bash can be used by both give no points, but something like AOE atk does. So, I will make an non absolute example list related to the current patch:
2H Sword
1- +1 AOE attack ratio (+0.5)
2- Can increase block value with STR to use it like a peltasta [+0.5]
3- Have buffs that scale with main stat (assuming STR) [+0.5]
4- Mostly slash damage, weak to plate (-25% total damage) [+0]
4.1- have a buff the increases slash damage 50% for a given time [+0.5]
5- Have critical attack stat passive buff [+0.5]
6- Medium range/hitbox [+1]
7- Medium to high CD skills [+0]
8- Durability of weapon is normal (around 40) [+1]
Rapier
1- 0 AOE ratio, need external complement [+0]
2- Block without shield possible, need good ping/timing [+0.5]
3- Does not have buffs that scale with any stat directly [+0]
4- Mostly pierce damage, weak to cloth (-25% total damage) [+0]
4.1- have buff that increases the next single pierce damage 100% [+0.5]
5- Have critical output damage buff [+2]
6- Low to medium range/hitbox [+0]
7- 0 to medium CD skills [+1]
8- Durability of weapon is half of normal [+0]
This is of course not the best method as it does not count every aspect of the game and the pointing rule might not be 100% correct, but it is a way of organizing the core elements. I might do a comparative list with other weapons later and with more variables and weapon types. Also, this is much like the way I think when comparing classes, though not exactly like that.
Also, we could even add or revise some points (like with the fact that some transcendence weapon users that deals 140k with attaque composee today) which would make Fencer today a class that actually is deserving a good nerf.
So, let’s now insert the next update here. If you count that criting is now harder, Epee is nerfed and 0 CD skills are non existent, you pretty much took the class from one side and tossed it to another, because, like before when I said that revising points because of results is valid, the demerits that are still present might create even worse results.
It’s to take the attributes and put the skills on lower levels because the scaling sucks (pre-balance change)
Then you put your skill points elsewhere.
Example, damage difference of Redel level 6 and 1 isn’t really too big, but the attribute requiring level 6 redel is very good, so you take 6 Redel, buy the attribute, reset and take one redel.
^ The attribute is still yours to keep.
This leaves you with 5 more points where you could throw them off to DOV
They fixed the attribute reset on Ktest, the “bright side” is that they nerfed DoV to sh*t so that’s 15 points to spend on Redel/Zucken/Zornhau attributes.
I see thanks! I’m currently working on a pelt-barb3-dop. Up to what point should I stick with my five hammer (with 5*lvl5 red gems) before getting a 2h sword?
