Tree of Savior Forum

General etiquette for dungeons and missions - let's make queues great again!

General Discussion
#41

There seems to be a misconception among people here as to how defense and defense buffs in general work.

Something that hits you for 2000 or whatever never actually has 2000 attack. Monsters have much smaller attack values, with multipliers that make you see those big numbers.

Take Blue Spion Archers for example, level 225 ranged mob at Nahash Forest that everyone hates: They have 580-663 attack. This basically means that if you get 663 defense they WILL hit you for 1 with every attack, no matter how much you see them hitting you for now. This is why plate’s important and why defense buffs are not to be overlooked at all. As a note, Reflect Shield does NOT work this way - it really does only decrease damage on a 1:1 basis and with a very limited hit limit at that.

I’m all for clearing the boss faster but that’s really undermined when people are dropping dead everytime Poata autoattacks. Archers/Wizards can carry 7 buffs with token and attribute, Swordsman/Clerics can carry 9. Playing as a dps Wizard with 3 objectively good selfbuffs i can tell you there’s oftenly not enough good buffs to justify not having something like Aspersion - unless there’s a Priest + either Thauma or Chrono.

If we’re being real here, what are the classes with good row1 buffs?

  • Thauma with swell arms (2 buffs) which happens to be a really rare sight.
  • Chrono with Haste and Quicken (only if there’s a physical dps class in the group).
  • Any Cleric2, Divine Might.
  • Priest. Now, they have Blessing, Sacrament, Stoneskin, Aspersion and Revive. If you’re rank 5+ and not a Quarrelshooter i want to believe you’re keeping auto attacks to a minimum, so Sacrament can actually be left out as it should not be giving great gains to the party.
  • Pardoner, Mdef.

Unless memory fails me that’s literally it. 10~11 good row1 party buffs spread across 4~5 classes. So unless people are filling you with bad buffs like the 1s mentioned in the OP post (or Sacrament/Enchant Fire at higher levels with no QS), flat out poor judgment with certain buffs (such as Pardoner’s MDEF on a situation only met with physical attacks or Quicken with only magical DPS classes present), or you happen to get a party mostly filled with the aforementioned classes there usually is room for Aspersion.

5 Likes
#42

More like, people shouldn’t want to be literal sandbags and work against their party for no reason :scream:

#43

I’ll try getting you a vid later.

Attacks you can avoid by jumping in missions:

Golem: Regular attack, Red circle warning ground pound, the 3 small ground pounds.

Poata: Literally everything. You do have to jump more than once for his regular attack and the roar aoe though.

Mole: Just his regular attack, i don’t think the spikes can be jumped.

Tree: Literally everything. The hand clapping into a straight line projectile attack is a bit tricky to jump though, and you usually can’t avoid that whole attack due to how long its hitbox lingers.

#44

They don’t.

Just because something isn’t exactly what you want a person to do doesn’t make it “working against” anyone.

So they’re not playing optimally for you, don’t expect everyone to know everything, or everyone to care. Unless it results in a wipe it doesn’t matter at all and anyone that’s actually getting angry about it needs to ask themselves why they’re getting so emotional about a simple daily dungeon run.

The amount of obnoxious behaviour over this stuff is unacceptable. It’s not competitive, it doesn’t change the outcome of the run, it really doesn’t matter.

It’s like getting angry at teammates in a casual lobby of CSGO for not tryharding.

1 Like
#45

Thanks for explaining it with a little more depth… I’ll have to try out Aspersion on something now XD

1 Like
#46

But that’s the entire point of this thread. It’s not people getting angry and crying about things - it’s really a PSA because as you mentioned you can’t expect people to know everything. But if they can be educated about it, that would just make life better for everyone in a party, not just me or you or them. If they don’t care, as you mentioned, this thread is not in their interest. You for example seem not to care and yet you make it a point to needlessly argue against it.

Your mentality of “unless it results in a wipe” is the exact reason games are taking the approach of making everything zergable and keeping teamwork (or even support classes) to a minimum. People apparently aren’t interested in working as a team on a massively multiplayer online game anymore.

How is you dropping an icewall on top of the boss and everyone else and pushing them off of safety zone and into harm’s way not working against your party?

2 Likes
#47

When someone is overwriting your useful buffs, or aggro-ing the boss around, or doing anything you find ineffective, BE NICE and TELL them. Don’t unleash your rage at them all of a sudden coz they might not be aware of it. Nicely tell them first.

6 Likes
#48

When you see Ice Wall and no PP, it’s Swordman and Cleric’s task to punch it so they can make their melee become ranged for temporary… Why there are bunch of Cyro and not telling you this? (I even just creating Cyro C2 in alts)

#49

it’s either cryo1 + linker2 or cryo3

cryo2 is meh

#50

If a game does not make the players play in a certain way through necessity then they will play the way they want and prefer to play regardless of any other factors.

It is simply poor design.

If you want players to change their behaviour then design has to change to inspire what you want from players.

Players feel absolutely no negative repercussions to themselves, they don’t lose in any way, no wipes occur, there is no challenge.

If the game is going to get people to play as a team then it must force players to adapt into playing as a team in order to get them to do so.

Dungeons and missions have zero challenge so nobody cares.

Earth Tower on the other hand enforces genuine team play because it absolutely requires it.

If you want players to change, ask for game design that actually asks players to adapt their playstyle to suit the needs of the environment. If you look at runs where people are barely of the appropriate level for the dungeon, or that they lack the usual good classes in order to run the dungeon well (healer/linker/tank/dps), people adapt new styles and play differently in order to suit the needs of the run. Some of these can be incredibly fun specifically because the players were forced into actually playing well together.

Understand that it is a fault of the game design that players aren’t doing this, and it is caused because the mode is absolutely casual with zero difficulty and zero need for what people are asking for 90% of the time. If you want this to change then the design itself must be addressed.

It is a common mistake in the industry for game devs (and playerbases) to blame players for playing a certain way instead of blaming the design of the game for the gameplay players adapt to.

I’m not specifically offering answers here because I don’t have them, I haven’t thought through the problem in any great detail other than making a snarky reply earlier. However it is incorrect of the community to blame the players for playing the game in a way they want to play it. The design itself is always responsible for player behaviour and should be altered to improve teamwork as opposed to expecting players to suddenly become not-stupid. No amount of threads will ever change this because there will never ever be a sufficiently educated number of players, nor will there ever not be new players, nor will there be an end to players that simply don’t care unless they are forced to care through the design of the gameplay itself.

That’s why it’s silly to expect others to change, or to even try. The correct approach is to bring this to the attention of the designers and ask them to correct player behaviour through design. And if they also hold the incorrect attitude of “Oh well players are playing incorrectly” then they should be pestered until they realise that it’s just a naive viewpoint to hold.

#51

This is important to all clerics. You have an attribute that makes your heal not damage enemies on contact. Your ability to heal with tiles is far more important than that small amount of damage which does little to nothing mid game. Also warlocks there, keep yourself safe with dark theurge. It protects you from range attacks, don’t just attack with it as soon as it’s up. Keep it until its about to expire, unless you are sure situations are under control.

2 Likes
#52

Let’s be honest if it weren’t for queues forcing people to party together this kind of detrimental buff usage wouldn’t exist past lvl115, because no one would continue to party with people who are known for wiping out the aspersion/sacri buff you just paid 1.1k to have for the whole next hour.

1 Like
#53

if they got rid of random que alotttt of classes would never be in dungeons lol

#54

If you removed queues you’d remove anot 50% of the player population, that’s a terrible idea.

If you want that problem stopped then the game design could just lock purchased buffs and that would never be a problem. The problem isn’t players, it’s design. You can’t stop players doing this or try to force them to change, they won’t change, either eliminate the option from their choices entirely or your attempts to force players to change (removing queues) will just make them quit.

Good design guides players to a desired outcome. Bad design attempts to force players and upon feeling like they’re fighting with the design they get frustrated and play something else.

#55

Actually Heal does a sizable chunk of damage with upgraded attributes, especially against Poata who’s weak to Holy. Whenever I get 2 or more Cleric 2’s in a mission, I turn on my Heal damage to speed things up.

I agree that healing is a first priority if you’re the only Cleric in a party, but too many people underestimate the dps of Heal tiles (along with Cure).

#56

Its fine with 2 clerics. But generally if you’re the only healer you’re better off turning it on.

#57

Right but this statement here

is very misleading.

#58

?? If people were forming their own parties they could discuss buffs beforehand/form groups that synergize with the buffs they have.

It’s not removing players, it’s called strategy and every highly successful mmo in history has had it. Meanwhile your post is basically saying players aren’t capable of thought.

1 Like
#59

When people can’t play, they don’t play.

Do you really think everyone will nicely make parties with anyone else when half the player base is under 16 years old?

People won’t put up with it, they’ll just stop playing because it’s too much effort.

#60

Are you done editing your post yet?