Tree of Savior Forum

[Feedback][Open Discussion] Proposed changes to the Swordsman classes - by Cathexis

Class and Rank Swordsman
#121

That would be valid IF they wanted to force that role on the entire Swordsman tree. However, we don’t know that and I personally think that it is not the case.

The only reason why Swash Buckling is predominant right now is because past level 230+ the best way to level up is through party grinding. Once they introduce more maps, quests, dungeons, etc; there shouldn’t be as much problem on not having Swash Buckling, just the way it is before that point.

That is not a problem with the classes, but the current state of the game.

Bad ones do that. Good ones are always doing more.

But what would you suggest to add more complexity to it?

They are a bunch, so I will just put your post as a whole on the suggestions section.

The problem with many of your suggestions is that they don’t encourage investing points into the skills, because most of them get all their benefits from level 1, making them low priority or simply 1 point skills, which isn’t ideal.

But they are good utility added to the skills, so if they were to be paired with another incentive to level them up, then it would turn out pretty well.

The reason why it is limited to 1 is because it would be too broken otherwise (and it wouldn’t fit thematically).

This one is too strong for someone that already has mobility on it’s kit.

The rest I think are good, so I added them to the suggestions.

Yeah, overall they could use some more “cool” skills.

Looking at the protection skills or crowd control that are on the Wizard/Cleric tree, then comparing them with the ones on the Swordsman tree, they are just so different and on a whole new level.

But this depends mostly on the developers and whether or not they want to give this type of utility to the Peltasta/Rodelero classes in the Swordsman tree.

Or maybe one of the Rank 8 classes will be able to provide this type of utility.

We will see.

What do yo mean by “toogle”?

It currently is a channeling skill, in my opinion that is more

Yeah, these are the kind of changes I am aiming for. Quick ones that can be easily implemented without having to go through an extensive evaluation that could take months.

Your proposed changes are good, they only need tweaking to be balanced. My only problem is that it gives too much power to the Corsair class in terms of utility, so I would like to see it being balanced out on other classes as well, otherwise Corsair would be too dominant if it is the only one getting this kind of treatment.

#122

I agree to you partialy. Its true that its not only something that will affect swordman, but not only swordman tree is somewhat broken. Many sub-classes of other classes are also underused and need some love or how I like it more, have some role where you specialize in.

The part that I disagree is that it wont take really long time to implement.
The hardest part of it that will take time is to think out the passives, but like you see most of them would be repeats of other classes just in different field.

Passive skills like attrubutes are easiest to code into game. You can literaly copy paste a code of other attrubte, set description to it, skill level table (depending from game engine) and input simple coding to stats there.
For someone who know what she/he is doing its like 5 minutes per skill as long as he/she have the skills writen down already.
Taking into account that we have like 55 classes in game then it is 3x 55 x5 = 825 minutes of coding. That 14 hours of work, less than 2 work days of work for a single guy.

I would say if 2 guys focused on the work it would take them probably 1 week top. Month if they created fancy passives that require implementation of some fancy stats.

#123

Coding is not what takes most of the time.

You need to properly test every one of them and assure that they were properly implemented and there are no bugs or typos on the values.

Then you have to properly test their interactions as you combine them with other classes within the same tree as there are many possible ways to mix them up which could lead to unexpected results.

You also have to properly test their balance when compared with class interactions as other buffs or skills could prove to be too strong for the current state of the game.

Since they are a company, all of these tests and iterations also have to go through documentation and if they have their own process for testing then they will also have to go through them.

Once they are properly tested and implemented they have to integrate them into the live version of the game, so you also need to do integration tests to guarantee that everything went correctly without any problems.

After it has been implemented then you need localization, which isn’t much as there are only Koran and English versions as of now, but they need to be translated and guarantee that the translations are correct.

As a single person it is pretty easy to make changes into the code and move them to production quickly. But in a company there are usually many steps or barriers one has to go through before submitting that code into live servers (proper testing, documentation, agreement with the team, approval from the manager, etc, etc).

It is not as simple as it looks when you work in a company, so this could take at the very least a few weeks but most likely a few months.

#124

Those are passive skills, there is almost no testing involved in it unless you really made a crappy game from coding side.
Most stats in games are simple stat_name = x in table and nothing more.
Even you or I would write that at the age of 9 with bit of common sense. You can always do small mistake in numbers, but thats why you should double check it (reading few lines of code per skill isnt so hard to do, you pay people for being responsible for what they do in work, you cant kindergarden them being afraid that they mess up all the time).

Balancing issues will need testing, but most of the process will take place in part where you thinking out given skill. With bit of math and common sense behind it. It will never be perfectly balanced and will need to be adjusted based on player feedback. It cant be worse than now anyway, so you have nothing to lose.

Documentation is a job that is their internal process. They need to optimize it by themself. As a customer of a given product you dont pay them for that, its their own problem they created for themself as a company. In such cases there shouldnt be much of documentation. The version control programs should be own way of documenting the changes and only the responsible person of given depertment should give out paper veryfing that he/she allowed and agreed to given changes to the product.

Integrating such stuff in game shouldnt take much time, unless like I wrote above, they failed at the early concept of how the game is made and how flexible it is to changes. Unfortunately the market dont have space for companies who fail at such technical problems, reality is brutal.

As a member of large company I know how bueaucracy impact and slow down the process that is meaningfull for our clients, but we fight with it all the time. Because like I said, client dont pay for it while we do, time is money, resources, including human ones is one of largest money sink in companies aswell. People need to remember to not fall into paranoia when runing a company, quality is important, but over-quality is waste of money. Especialy when you are runing company that offer product that cant really harm a human being (it is not material product like chems for example) so even small fails at quality side wont affect the big picture and can be quickly fixed anyway.

#125

So in the end it is at the very least a few weeks if not months, because this is IMC and not other company.

We can’t really tell because we don’t know the internal structure at IMC so we can assume a lot of things and in the end they wouldn’t matter if that is not how reality is. From what we have seen so far though, is that they are very slow to implement changes though.

Maybe they don’t even have the resources to do so at the moment and the ones that they do have are allocated to other things.

Without knowing the exact details of the company, there is no way for us to really tell how much time it would take. Could it be better/faster? Sure. But that is not up to us.

#126

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#127

Hers some easy changes for other classes, however I don’t have much experience with other classes so I have held off till now.

Hoplite perhaps the most balance class in the sword tree right now. Add an attribute (Spartan Training) that adds X% of damage per level up to lvl 50 when a shield is equipped. This would make hop3 more desirable as a stand alone and also reinforce the shield bearer theme of Hoplite.

Cataphract Attribute (Pet attack) add a second line of damage that is pet attack + x%, x can be determined by a formula taking the level of attribute and what ever multiplier would work for balance. Basically an upgradable Arde dagger while mounted, and it stays in line with the theme of Cata.

Shinobi Attribute (Suijin no jutsu) adds a secondary effect to Moktun creating a “water sphere” which gives immunity to damage and CC for x seconds per attribute up to a limit of 1~5 depending for balance.

Attribute (Smoke bomb) after using mijin or katon or both. Adds a debuff aura around the spot used ( The Jolly roger flag mechanics can be used here as an easy solution) The aura gives a sever penalty to Acc and X. X would be some kind of penalty to magic either by an increased casting time or a reduction to the overall magic damage which ever would be easier to implement/ more balanced.

Swordsman Attribute (Equipment Mastery) circle 2+ adds a bonus to all worn equipment of x% per level of attribute.

i have other ideas that are simple can add more when I have more time.

Edit: Got some more time here are a few more.

Dragoon Attribute (Soar) gives an immunity buff for x seconds where x is increased per attribute level after using Y skill, insert what ever skill is most balanced / appropriate. This will allow Goon to get in do damage and not die. It can also be tacked on for multiple skills capping at like 1~3 seconds to allow for skill rotation with out eating to much damage.

Attribute (Fiery Blood) adds x% to damage per attribute level and a weakness to Cold of x%.

Dopel Get rid of DPE as it is, make it an attribute or get rid of the debuff component and increase the number of strikes. If the overall effect is lessened for balance then so be it. In effect this skill is just gimmicky

Attribute (Scything sweep) adds a second line of damage TO Normal Auto Attack that is -x% damage penalty but +X AOE ratio. This will further emphasize the AOE factor of dopple and add to their DPS capability.

Barbarian and Highlander since add in a second line with a different modifier to their skills, for example their skills could have both a pierce and strike component. This will also allow double dipping into buffs alla Cleric cafrisun/arde. The reson for the additional modifier is to take advantage of all the extra damage available thus adding a greater dynamic to these classes. I feel these two classes even more than swordman just fall off later game.

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#128

Lol i just write a post myself and i didnt see this post.
I think that the change to gunho and concentrate are a must and help huge to the class.
Im a hop3dragoon and im agree that finestra would be so much better with a +%crit rate and not the flat rate that we have.
Btw nobody have pointed that dragoon skill base damage it is so low that they do less damage than hoplite skills or that they have so looooong animations that yet when many arent channel skills u cant do it tanking or you cant evade skills.
Btw i think that deed of valor could be changed to get stacks when u hit and not when u are hit,this is a dps skill and not tank so it havent sense the actual mechanic,if they want balance it around of hits and dont be hit ok but it is so dumb have to be hit as dps to get this buff

#129

So this one would be for C3?

This one is pretty cool, although not sure if it would be easy to implement without too many bugs. Would this extra damage be added to every attack you deal? Is there a drawback?

I think this one is a little bit redundant and would be too strong, because Mokuton already makes you invulnerable…well, it is supposed to, but it just needs to be fixed so that it works properly.

This would be pretty good since it could justify the use of bombs and adds extra utility to the skills.

You mean on their base values? This would apply to every tree too though, to make it fair.

I don’t think we are getting any immunity effects on our skills. But if we were to get one, I think it should be on something that gives you a bigger drawback. It such a highly valued reward for so little risk involved.

I don’t really agree with this one. DPE is a fantastic skill.

Priest have to spend money for their buffs though, so it would be fair to set a drawback for these two if they were to be implemented too.

I think they are unnecessary though, because they only help during early levels and they don’t need help during those stages. Priest buffs don’t really have much use at higher levels as it is better to use the buff slot for other things that do make a difference.

I don’t think they have long animations or lower damage than Hoplite skills.

If you compare a full animation Stabbing, sure, it deals more hits. But Dragoon skills are cast very fast and deal a pretty good amount of damage.

All they need is a better hitbox and overheat.

Well, it is because it fits the theme of “putting yourself at risk to get more damage” of the Doppelsoeldner.

Also, if you were to get the stacks when you attack it would be way too strong. Just look at Frenzy, it has lower increase values and it is limited to auto-attacks, otherwise it would be too strong too and Deeds of Valor has much higher return values on it.

#130

The numbers can be small to avoid the need of additional drawbacks, thus why I put (x) they can work it as IMC deems balanced.

Hop3 as a rank7 since a boost to spear and shield would bring it closser to 2 hand, it can be in any circle really but adjust for balance as IMC sees fit, also promotes swapping when needed for varioys content with less hassle/penalty etc.

Bonud to equipment worn would be base value for equipment and since sword2 it would require sword2, but yes the bonus carries to all worn equipment.

As for the second line of atk, do not discount equipment impact, sure arde sucks later but if the lines take into account main hand stats it will scale equally with main line of attack, the additional modifier being another big component. This opens up lesser used modifiers like “Strike.”

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#131

food price are ok (about 4.5k/(30~40) minutes for 4 food buff which is kinda expensive but most people doesn’t take the one for the max sp anyway). But since if you want to give the food buffs you must spend 27k silver(13.5k x 2) for opening the basecamp and food-table, which is pretty expensive when your grind time is only about 1-2 hours (or maybe less), lowering the build cost for refreshment table seems to be the best solution since base camp pricing is pretty fair considering it’s utility, i would suggest either of the following ideas:

  1. Allow refreshment table to be opened without basecamp nearby
  2. Reduce the cost to open food table (to around 5-7k)
  3. Allow basecamp buff duration bonus affect food buffs duration

As for the food being sell-able with lesser effect i think it’s fine, but with 50% tax and current pricing i don’t think it will sell well anyway. But maybe having foodshop as c3 skill replacing current c3 skill is ok, probably each level increase the duration of the food buff while giving around 0.4 times effect of normal buffs

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#132

Good thread. I hope the @moderators can check it :slight_smile:

Some proposed changes:

Fencer: More range for the attacks. I’m not asking for an AoE damage or something like that but I think that a Rapier should be able to hit enemies in front without having to stick to them

#133

Great thread and great ideas for the classes. I’ll like to point other points missing for Peltasta and Rodeleto classes, since this is the only thing I played at higher levels. English is not my main language so bear with me. My build is Pelt C3 > Rod C2 going for that sweet C3.

Peltasta

Rim Blow:

Should be add 2 new attributes.

First to remove the god damm knock back, like Highlander attribute for Cartar Stroke.

The second attribute is to take the “Inflicts additional damage on both petrified and frozen enemies” text and make a proper attribute that gives 20% bonus damage for each level, max level 5.

Lagort:

Should be at Circle 2 as well. Damage is low but it should help Pelt C2 to level up. Since High Guard was moved to Circle 3 and you don’t have that sweet “Speciality”.

High Guard:

Your idea is great, but 2 things that will help even better are:

If the duration was the same time as the cooldown, like finestra from Hop C2, but that might be too powerful.

And if the attribute “High Guard: Increased Defense” give magic defense instead of physical defense, because as a swordsman you struggle more against magic mobs and there is no point in having physical defense if you’re blocking the attacks(what High Guard is suppose to be).

Having 50 flat defense for a stance is not that good, but it’s better then physical defense. If they add scale with SPR will be way better, but that’s Pardoner job, so I think won’t happen.

Rodelero

I didn’t pick Rodelero C3 yet, but that pretty much sums the class. But that sounds like a dream so here some changes, plus yours, that might improve the class.

Shield Charge:

Change the name to Shield Walk :joy:. No. Seriously, I think that this skill should actually use the run animation of Swordsman or, at least, give you movement speed while raising your shield and consuming stamina. The higher the skill the more stamina consumption.

With that we maybe can see some stamina swordsman build.

I’m not going to say how much it should those values(speed/stamina), because I actually don’t know how much that would became OP. But when a skill says SHIELD CHARGE I image my character LUNGE A GREAT DISTANCE WITH THAT BIG ******* TOWER SHIELD.

Shield Shoving:

Is not to meant to be a damage skill, so why not increase the duration, and make the reach a little higher than a basic attack I seriously need to kiss the mob/player to turn them.

Shield Bash:

This skill has good damage but the effect is just bad. The improvement should be to change the “stats temporarily scrambled” for one or more of this things:

1 - “Temporarily decreases the target’s INT and SPR”. Just like Crown from Highlander and Headshot from Musketeer.

2 - Attaque Conquille effect from Fencer but for Strike attack, it should look like this: “The enemy’s defense is ignored when attacked again with [Strike] attacks”.

3 - Give silence/confuse to an enemy hit by this attack.

Shield Bash is suppose to be a skill that hit hard with your shield, so the debuff should be something in this sense.

Slithering:

Oh man… I think this would make Rodeleto way too strong. The idea is great, increase the duration and some interaction with Target Smash. I would say something like this:

Duration: Base Level: 1 seconds

  • (0.5 * SkillLevel) seconds

New Effect: Enemies will receive double damage by Target Smash, while being in the ground.

And for all of this to happen IMC needs to decrease the animation time to use this skills.

Sorry for the long answer. That’s everything I could think of right now.

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#134

Just want to point out current basecamp level (or refreshment table level) doesn’t affect food buff duration. I got squire, but not yet tested this but the description doesn’t mention anything like that, the camp does give buff meant to increase other buff duration for (20% x basecamp skill level) (i also never bother to test this buff effects) but it doesn’t works for food buff as far as i know. I got level 1 basecamp, lv 10 ref table, and 2 level each on food buff to increase duration (+2 minutes), end up with buff last for 32 minutes (no apparent effect from base camp buff).

#135

Until now we have 0 responses from the dev team about swordsman weakness. I know they have many bugs to fix but at least a staff could come here and say: “Dear saviors, we are aware of swordsman massive weakness we are working in swordsmans skills to bring him to competitive scenario.”

I changed my mind. Now I look to swordsman as a 4fun class. If you want to be competitive go wiz/arch/cleric.
I love play as swordsman and will stick with him.

#136

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#137

Agree, but letting people know they are working in swordsman will bring hope for us.
Their silence tell us they don’t care about us poor swordsman.

#138

my suggestion

fuse gung ho and concentrate. move swash buckling from peltasta to swordsman C1 or give swordie different AoE taunt. C1 it could be:
Targets: 5/6/7/8/9 (-2 than Swash Buckling)
Maximum Provocation: +12 for 30 seconds
Attribute could give Dodge or Attack instead of HP

it’s dumb that you are FORCED to pick Peltasta C1 in EVERY build because without you can forget about parties (dungeons or grinding) specially in high level one…

I literally had to delete my SwordC2/BarbC2. Now I have SwordC1/PeltastaC1/Barb… SwordC1 buffs are garbage atm because of that and I don’t have restrain anymore >.> RIP dream of stunlocking enemies when I get to Corsair2

■■■■■■■ swash buckling kills all the fun of creating different builds in Swordsman class >.<

#139

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#140

The worst thing in swordsman: micro hitboxes.
I have 9 AoE attack ratio but is almost impossible hit more than 3 or 4 mobs.
For me is a shame taunt mobs and use crosscut+skyliner to do damage in less than 5 targets.
No point have a high aoe if you can’t use all them.